Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #42

[Deleted member 182072]

I agree - and that's not evidence IMO.

I personally believe eventually there will be direct physical evidence proving he killed the girls, along with other evidence that he planned everything beforehand which will leave zero doubt in everyone's minds.

But I'm curious, Tippy. Just based on his repeated lies, would there be a point that you just say "enough already, you're as guilty as they get." Would it be lying about baby monitors or something else?

 

[katydid23]

I disagree. The 'idea' was about the girls, but in practice it just wasn't, it was about either filming for prosterity or recording to please the grandparents.

<modsnip - not victim-friendly>

Right, the 'idea' was about the girls. And as the filming began she thought it was going to be a great experience. But it went sideways and I think we all have had that happen. I have quite a few moments like that on video.

 

[MsBetsy]

Interview with Dr Ramani Durvasula, licensed clinical psychologist in private practice in Santa Monica and Sherman Oaks, CA and a Professor of Psychology at California State University, Los Angeles, where she was named Outstanding Professor in 2012.

Dr. Durvasula received her B.S. in Psychology from the University of Connecticut, and her MA and Ph.D. degrees in Clinical Psychology from UCLA.

She is also involved in national governance in the field of psychology and has served as the chair of the Committee on Socioeconomic Status at the American Psychological Association and is presently a member of the Advisory Board of the Minority Fellowship Program of the American Psychological Association.

As we have a couple of VIs here, I checked out her credentials to make sure she was well qualified ... not that we’re sceptical people here.

She explains her subject in clear and easy to understand language. I found it fascinating and I hope you do too.

How to Spot a Narcissist, Psychopath or Sociopath

I'm looking forward to watching this when I have time later, but I would like to point out just one thing. Sometimes these behaviors can be very subtle. I recently saw the video of CW watching Shannon make the dancing video. It reminded me very much of my ex- husband. He could not stand to see me happy, and would become very moody when I was having fun. He would look at me with this pout on his face, which I used to refer to my friends as looking like he was sitting in a dirty diaper. I learned through marriage counselling ( he refused to go) that he was controlling and mentally abusive. I was in my twenties, and the signs were so subtle I actually had to learn how to recognize them. I am becoming more convinced that CW was controlling. His role when they first met was like that of the " hero," who cared for her when she was in a vulnerable time in her life. This is a form of control. Maybe when he no longer felt needed and appreciated, he became angry and resentful. One of the VI's mentioned that she thought he grew to resent SW. I believe that once she and the kids no longer served their purpose, he began to distance himself from them, which allowed him, in the end, to kill them. Jmo

 

[katydid23]

<modsnip - personalized> I meant it was good as in not obvious

Oh, well it was very obvious in my opinion. His GPS took LE right there. And he had a work order sending him out to work on this tanks that morning. So it was very obvious. As well as horrid. JMO

 

[Nikynoo]

Right, the 'idea' was about the girls. And as the filming began she thought it was going to be a great experience. But it went sideways and I think we all have had that happen. I have quite a few moments like that on video.

Yes, me too, BUT, I think the point is, it all went on too long. No biggie, and it is my opinion only

 

[Nikynoo]

Oh, well it was very obvious in my opinion. His GPS took LE right there. And he had a work order sending him out to work on this tanks that morning. So it was very obvious. As well as horrid. JMO

If it was obvious, why did he have to point out where the girls were? With SW being buried, they may have assumed that the girls had also been buried and couldnt locate them with the drone. LE might have thought about it eventually...... IMO

 

[PajamaSleuth]

Hi, I’m a long-time lurker, first time poster....

I think CW killed them because he feared getting caught in all his lies. He felt backed into a corner, so he killed his family so he wouldn’t be exposed. Reminds me of Mark Hacking.

 

[Nikynoo]

I'm looking forward to watching this when I have time later, but I would like to point out just one thing. Sometimes these behaviors can be very subtle. I recently saw the video of CW watching Shannon make the dancing video. It reminded me very much of my ex- husband. He could not stand to see me happy, and would become very moody when I was having fun. He would look at me with this pout on his face, which I used to refer to my friends as looking like he was sitting in a dirty diaper. I learned through marriage counselling ( he refused to go) that he was controlling and mentally abusive. I was in my twenties, and the signs were so subtle I actually had to learn how to recognize them. I am becoming more convinced that CW was controlling. His role when they first met was like that of the " hero," who cared for her when she was in a vulnerable time in her life. This is a form of control. Maybe when he no longer felt needed and appreciated, he became angry and resentful. One of the VI's mentioned that she thought he grew to resent SW. I believe that once she and the kids no longer served their purpose, he began to distance himself from them, which allowed him, in the end, to kill them. Jmo

I'm interested to hear more of your thoughts on this, if you don't mind sharing?

My first thought on hearing of this case, was that he was angry because SW's flight being delayed and that was the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak (and not because he had already killed the girls etc etc etc). I think he really resented taking a back seat to LeVel....

 

[Davia18]

Hi, I’m a long-time lurker, first time poster....

I think CW killed them because he feared getting caught in all his lies. He felt backed into a corner, so he killed his family so he wouldn’t be exposed. Reminds me of Mark Hacking.

Welcome
I also feel he wanted his freedom. He was over being a husband and father. Something I think many of us feel at one time or another however we don't go and kill our families. And lets not forget the AP, think that is going to be a huge factor JMO

 

[PommyMommy]

Hi, I’m a long-time lurker, first time poster....

I think CW killed them because he feared getting caught in all his lies. He felt backed into a corner, so he killed his family so he wouldn’t be exposed. Reminds me of Mark Hacking.

Welcome to Websleuths, PajamaSleuth!
So glad you came out of lurking. I am often in my PJ's while sleuthing too! ​

 

[molly1255]

bump

 

[katydid23]

The relevance is my response to another post.

But I guess the underlying point is, why is it relevant that the girls were crying during the Christmas Celebration? It seems to me that toddlers have tantrums during holidays or during the time they are being taped live or any other inopportune moments. So why is it relevant in this murder case that SW made that tape and kept filming? Because that is what people keep bringing up, as if it means something in this case. I don't get it.

 

[Seattle1]

Thanks for your response, it doesn't answer my question though.

If we ignore the fact that the DA is not the correct party to file the motion to seal for a minute - the question is why does he want them ALL sealed? Looking at the defense's response, they feel that the DA's assertion that the request is protecting the integrity of any future trial holds no water. As VA's have already stated on this forum, that it is unusual for such a request to be filed AFTER charges have been made as therefore the motion is likely to be refused. HOWEVER, if there are further charges to be made against an unknown party, then the motion makes sense (albeit the Coroner, as custodian, is the correct party to make it).

Two things: the Prosecutor filed the preemptive motion before the autopsy reports were even close to being complete, and the Coroner (custodian), who works in cooperation with the DA, agrees with the DA that the reports should be sealed.

In his Sept. 21 order, Weld District Court Judge Marcelo Kopcow stated the Weld District Attorney's Office is the official custodian of autopsy reports of victims of homicide, but was unaware at the time if the Weld County Coroner's Office had received any Colorado Open Records Act requests for the reports. In a follow up order on Sept. 26, Kopcow decided a hearing would be scheduled "at the earliest practical time" to determine if the autopsy reports should be made public.

In an email to The Tribune, Blesch [Coroner] said he agrees with Rourke’s motion to seal the autopsy records in an effort to ensure the integrity of the ongoing investigation and a fair trial for the defendant.

“From my perspective, that motion addresses the reasons for the denial of inspection set forth in CORA,” Blesch said. “The court will rule and we'll comply with whatever that ruling may be.” [BBM].

In this case, the open records advocates are jumping up and down because the Coroner did not file a petition, yet the Coroner couldn't file a petition for a nonexistent report! It's silly to think that the DA was acting behind the back of Coroner, and much to do about nothing since the court has the final say. I'm sure if the court reverses, and requires Coroner to file a separate petition, he will comply. MOO
Greeley Tribune, media coalition fight potential seal of autopsy reports in Christopher Watts triple homicide case

ETA: Future reference - this is a #615

 

[Nikynoo]

But I guess the underlying point is, why is it relevant that the girls were crying during the Christmas Celebration? It seems to me that toddlers have tantrums during holidays or during the time they are being taped live or any other inopportune moments. So why is it relevant in this murder case that SW made that tape and kept filming? Because that is what people keep bringing up, as if it means something in this case. I don't get it.

IMO it does not appear to have relevance to me, I just made an observation.

Don't be lulled into thinking that some or all of SW's sm content will not be used in any trial.... IMO both the prosecution and the defence will find them useful. The risk, if they do so, will be that they (either the prosecution or defence) cannot guarantee how sm content will be perceived by the jury. A little like the diffent perceptions on this thread.

 

[MsBetsy]

I'm interested to hear more of your thoughts on this, if you don't mind sharing?

My first thought on hearing of this case, was that he was angry because SW's flight being delayed and that was the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak (and not because he had already killed the girls etc etc etc). I think he really resented taking a back seat to LeVel....

Yes, I believe that's a big part of it, as well, And I do have many more examples and ideas which I will definitely post in a few hours when I have the time!

 

[Nikynoo]

Two things: the Prosecutor filed the preemptive motion before the autopsy reports were even close to being complete, and the Coroner (custodian), who works in cooperation with the DA, agrees with the DA that the reports should be sealed.

In his Sept. 21 order, Weld District Court Judge Marcelo Kopcow stated the Weld District Attorney's Office is the official custodian of autopsy reports of victims of homicide, but was unaware at the time if the Weld County Coroner's Office had received any Colorado Open Records Act requests for the reports. In a follow up order on Sept. 26, Kopcow decided a hearing would be scheduled "at the earliest practical time" to determine if the autopsy reports should be made public.

In an email to The Tribune, Blesch [Coroner] said he agrees with Rourke’s motion to seal the autopsy records in an effort to ensure the integrity of the ongoing investigation and a fair trial for the defendant.

“From my perspective, that motion addresses the reasons for the denial of inspection set forth in CORA,” Blesch said. “The court will rule and we'll comply with whatever that ruling may be.” [BBM].

In this case, the open records advocates are jumping up and down because the Coroner did not file a petition, yet the Coroner couldn't file a petition for a nonexistent report! It's silly to think that the DA was acting behind the back of Coroner, and much to do about nothing since the court has the final say. I'm sure if the court reverses, and requires Coroner to file a separate petition, he will comply. MOO
Greeley Tribune, media coalition fight potential seal of autopsy reports in Christopher Watts triple homicide case

Thanks for this, I think I can see where you're coming from. However, the motion filed by the DA stated that the DA was the custodian when he is not. I guess that any motion for sealing needs to be in compliance with CORA?

I am not trying to say that the DA is trying to act behind the Coroners back either. I just pointed out that there may be another reason for filing the motion, in that if the LE's investigation is not complete, the release of the reports may alert someone who may be of interest.

 

[gitana1]

Yes, me too, BUT, I think the point is, it all went on too long. No biggie, and it is my opinion only

Again. How is that relevant to this case?

 

[katydid23]

IMO it does not appear to have relevance to me, I just made an observation.

Don't be lulled into thinking that some or all of SW's sm content will not be used in any trial.... IMO both the prosecution and the defence will find them useful. The risk, if they do so, will be that they (either the prosecution or defence) cannot guarantee how sm content will be perceived by the jury. A little like the diffent perceptions on this thread.

I am sure 'some' will be used in the trial. But probably not that much in the end.

Any portion will need to get past the judge and there will have to be a good legal reason for it to be admitted into evidence and before the jury. It cannot just be 'look she made her baby cry' kind of thing. And each side will be aware that it opens all kind of doors once shown to the jury. Sometimes it can backfire.

 

[scapa]

Welcome
I also feel he wanted his freedom. He was over being a husband and father. Something I think many of us feel at one time or another however we don't go and kill our families. And lets not forget the AP, think that is going to be a huge factor JMO

I think it's likely to be as simple as that, especially if he was discovering a new identity he wanted to fully inhabit. Parents can find themselves consumed by their parenting lives, wondering three their earlier selves have gone, wracked with guilt about this ambivalence, that conflicts with what some have called the "cult of parenthood" that emphasized sacrifice and fulfillment while downplaying the sheer hard work of it all. I think it cane harder on those with few external supports and sounding boards -- it's the next step, not to leaving, separation, or even divorce but to mass murder that is unusual and deeply troubling.

But this is also someone in the middle of one or more affairs, heading towards another financial meltdown, described as broody, self-contained, introverted, whose triggers were shaved right down, and who exploded into violence. I don't think he's likely to be diagnosed as a narcissist or sociopath, and certainly not a psychopath, and I wonder why there's so much emphasis on this genre of explanations (and I speak as a research psychologist, though not a clinician), because I'm not sure what it adds: "this is the sort of personality-flawed person who does this sort of thing." But narcissism is not a necessary or sufficient explanation for this crime; narcissists overwhelmingly don't murder their entire families, and people behave abhorrently in ways that are perfectly rational -- to them -- all the time.

I see strong parallels here to the Coleman family murders, both in victimology and the murders themselves, as well as in the (overwhelmingly likely) perpetrator. In both cases an existing life was seen to be in the way of a "true" one, and the obstacles had to be removed. Main difference is in the elements of religiosity and planning, IMO.

 

[WildWest]

I'm looking forward to watching this when I have time later, but I would like to point out just one thing. Sometimes these behaviors can be very subtle. I recently saw the video of CW watching Shannon make the dancing video. It reminded me very much of my ex- husband. He could not stand to see me happy, and would become very moody when I was having fun. He would look at me with this pout on his face, which I used to refer to my friends as looking like he was sitting in a dirty diaper. I learned through marriage counselling ( he refused to go) that he was controlling and mentally abusive. I was in my twenties, and the signs were so subtle I actually had to learn how to recognize them. I am becoming more convinced that CW was controlling. His role when they first met was like that of the " hero," who cared for her when she was in a vulnerable time in her life. This is a form of control. Maybe when he no longer felt needed and appreciated, he became angry and resentful. One of the VI's mentioned that she thought he grew to resent SW. I believe that once she and the kids no longer served their purpose, he began to distance himself from them, which allowed him, in the end, to kill them. Jmo

I think there is something to this too.