Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #44

[human]

Not sure how your question relates to my response to your OP. So moving on

When will the autopsy reports be released? Not until the trial? Is the media asking for release?

 

[human]

Everything is just speculation at this point on how she knew. She did though and that's all that matters. It could be anything from her having been a contact on SW's list that allowed her to get that information to arrangements for her to watch the girls while SW went to the appointment. Maybe that's when she got really concerned - when SW didn't bring the girls over as planned. Again it's all just speculation and in the overall theme of things she was a great friend who acted intelligently based on the information she had available and her own instincts.

It bothers me as I felt doctor’s offices were reliable on not releasing information.

 

[margarita25]

I do think there are truths mixed in with his lies. Perhaps when SW came home CW was in the loft area waiting for her to have an “emotional conversation”. Maybe he asked her to sit on the couch and then attacked her which is how her phone became lodged in the couch?

I think the poor babies were already dead before SW got home. I think that because of the timing of it all. So much to do between 2am and 5am in order to be out the door with all dead bodies stuffed in his truck.

I recall when Longo provided his revised confession from prison in which he admitted to killing all of them, he mentioned how hard it was to strangle the 2 y/o. That her “tiny neck” in his hands made it difficult for him to want to do that to his other children. I would think in order for CW to have murdered all 3, by strangulation, and pack up everything by 5am means the babies would have been killed before SW got home. IMO

Welcome Breesee03

 

[cailleach]

She could have been listed as one of SW's emergency contacts which means she had every right to know. Or SW could have failed to bring the girls as planned and once she knew the car and car seats were still there she knew she didn't go to the appt they undoubtedly had discussed as SW wasn't feeling well on the trip and was likely anxious to see the doc.

 

[RachB65]

How did her friend know SW did not go to the doctor appt? Can people call a doctor’s office and ask about someone?

Wasnt N supposed to watch the kids while she was at the dr or was supposed to meet up with her right after? Perhaps N went to the dr office looking for her and they told her she never showed up?
She could also have called asking if SW was there or had been there. The fact that the whereabouts also of 2 little girls was in question might compel the dr office to respond. Maybe SW dr knew N and was familiar with their relationship

 

[MassGuy]

When will the autopsy reports be released? Not until the trial? Is the media asking for release?

There’s a hearing scheduled on December 21.

The hearing involves the media’s request for the release of the autopsy reports.

 

[margarita25]

It seems CeCe and Bella were mermaids for Halloween last year, I saw a pic somewhere...

 

[PrimeSuspect]

It bothers me as I felt doctor’s offices were reliable on not releasing information.

In the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter, a murderer's cover up was brought to a halt.

If you're worried, there's no indication at this stage that anyone in the doctor's office broke protocol. Maybe, NUA was to meet SW at the doctor's office, when she turned up, SW wasn't there, NUA waited and SW didn't arrive. Or, SW's mother waited to hear how the Dr's appointment went and didn't receive a call, she rang SW numerous times, no answer so she contacted NUA who drove straight over to SW's house. There are so many possibilities and we'll find out soon enough, we've got to be patient.

 

[gitana1]

When will they be released?

Probably after the hearing in December. Unless the court finds a compelling reason to keep them sealed until trial.

 

[kiwilaura]

Do you believe it is reasonable to doubt that he killed the kids?

I mean you just listed all the logical reasons why you think he murdered his children. What does "reasonable" mean to you?

For me it has to do with logic. Rationality. Soundness. Credibilty. Sensibility. Plausibility. Tenability.

So reasonable doubt would mean that doubt as to his guilt is based on soundness. On plausibility and rationality and logic. On credibility and sensibility.

I'm not finding anything about his story plausible or sensible, silly unfounded gossip about her character or mental status aside, and everything you stated points to him as the only logical perp.

Sometimes I think the term "reasonable doubt" is interpreted in ways that aren't totally accurate?

It doesn't mean some doubt. Or possible doubt. It doesn't mean that it could be possible he didn't do this or possible that he is telling the truth.

From what I've learned it means when looking at the entire picture- all the evidence including behavior and circumstances, timing, motive, etc., and using logic to analyze that, is it reasonable to doubt his guilt.

How do you feel about that definition?

P.s. These are honest questions. Not intended at all to be snarky!

Hi Gitana,

Perhaps I am interpreting the definition incorrectly. There is definitely not one ounce of my being that thinks Shanann killed her children. I am completely convinced that he murdered them all. For me, there is nothing seen so far that makes me doubt his guilt.

I don't know why I feel that there could be reasonable doubt. Like I said, probably my understanding of the term is wrong. I have just seen people get off with fanciful stories (more local NZ cases then elsewhere) because of the reasonable doubt thing. I just wonder more that members of the jury would think: "it's *possible* for her to have killed the children, and we were not there, so how do we really know?"

Based on what you have explained, I feel better about it all. Unless there is compelling evidence that Shanann killed her children, I would be devastated for him to not be found guilty.

Hugely appreciate your insights by the way, especially for those of us far away for whom USA law is quite unfamiliar.

 

[Charlot123]

@RachB65
I agree, Rach, I'm in my 50s too and I don't mind people sharing their lives on SM. I used the incorrect term, it's some people of any age who are judgemental of those who do share their lives over the net, they're applying their own unwritten rules and it's not fair, SW is an easy target, she's not around to defend herself. If SW wasn't such an avid user of SM these threads would look entirely different.

Respectfully, disagree. We have other threads where people who have not been officially named suspects are accused. It is human nature. SW merely has left more material to chew on with her videos and posts. But that even without her posts, there would be people asking, "what if he is telling the truth?", I have no doubt of.

Another example, totally off the topic of this thread, but of the similar type. Think of our multiple conspiracy theories. What if 9/11 was the local deal? What if Marylin was killed? Etc, etc. There are always people for whom Occam razor's principle does not work.

 

[katydid23]

Marilyn Lemak. Jurors concluded revenge was her motive and they rejected her insanity defense. Her husband's new girlfriend testified at trial because she was harassed by Lemak prior to the murders. JMO

Marilyn Lemak | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers
Jurors, in fact, said the dozen competing mental-health experts largely canceled each other out. Panel members said they didn't believe the experts could divine Lemak's truthfulness any better than they could. "They didn't persuade us to either side," Collins said.

Lemak friends say she was upset in days before killings



Lemak's friends saw anguish before killings - Chicago Tribune

www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2001-11-30-0111300205-story.html




But there was also testimony that Lemak appeared depressed and upset in the days before her children's deaths.

Ann Hahn-Baiyor, a friend who described Lemak as a "great mother," said that starting in the fall of 1998 Lemak seemed stressed over her failing marriage and acknowledged taking medication.

On March 3, 1999 -- the day before Lemak is accused of drugging and suffocating her children in their Naperville home -- Hahn-Baiyor said she ran into her as the two volunteered at their children's school. Lemak was in tears.

"She was visibly upset, crying (and) shaking," Hahn-Baiyor said. "I asked her what was wrong, and she said she saw Dave's girlfriend's car parked outside his rental house."

ALSO:


Testimony from women who Lemak saw daily suggested there were clues her life was coming undone before the killings, but nothing to indicate she would take the lives of Emily and her brothers, Nicholas, 7, and Thomas, 3, on March 4, 1999.



The usually polished woman--a sort of queen bee among her friends--admitted to them for the first time that she'd sought psychiatric help for the stress of raising the children.

Another friend called by prosecutors, Karen Marposon, said Lemak told her that night that she had once revealed to her husband that "she was afraid she might hurt the kids."

"She said Dave told her, `No, you wouldn't do that. You're a good mom,'" Marposon recalled, noting that Lemak said his response was an example of how her husband "did not meet her emotional needs."

 

[katydid23]

It's not a HIPPA violation for the receptionist to confirm that a patient, who everyone is concerned about, is not in the office and had not shown up yet. That does not violate any laws nor does it reveal any private medical info. JMO

 

[Tortoise]

It's probably already been discussed in depth but I wasn't involved in the earlier threads - how long after death does a body turn blue? I don't know if CW would know about decomposition processes, and this may indicate that he had indeed killed the girls a lot earlier and he did see them blue by the time he put them in his truck.

I will research it..

ETA - I've seen photos of JonBenet Ramsey (died by strangulation) taken about 20 hours after her death and she was still a normal color.

 

[Tortoise]

This site says the extremities will turn blue within 8-12 hours. http://www.memorialpages.co.uk/articles/decomposition.php

By my reckoning if he saw Bella blue she had died at around 8-9pm. Maybe he will wish to recant that detail!

 

[Mrspratcher]

Sorry if this has already been posted, but there is a status hearing on Tuesday, 6 Nov!

https://www.courts.state.co.us/user...strict/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/18cr2003.pdf

 

[Tortoise]

Thinking further...if he did know about decomposition process he wouldn't have said it, because he would know it didn't occur immediately. Conclusion - he invented seeing this on the monitor and therefore his whole story falls apart.

 

[idfinch]

Hypothetically, if he does take a plea, what happens to the evidence? Would the status conference on the autopsies be a moot point or would it still be an issue? Would all of the gathered information as far as phone records, things gathered by LE, DNA, his interviews, etc remain sealed forever or would there be any public disclosure?

My concern is that Shanann's innocence would be forever up in the air if he pleads guilty to some or all of it and no further evidence is released. @gitana1 ?

 

[mickey2942]

SVU had a show on last week about a family annihilator. The Mother was the perpetrator. In the trial, she was convicted of killing her husband, but not the two children.

Interesting how the writers take actual cases, and use the information to craft episodes. It was a spin on this issue, which is becoming more common.

 

[mickey2942]

It's not a HIPPA violation for the receptionist to confirm that a patient, who everyone is concerned about, is not in the office and had not shown up yet. That does not violate any laws nor does it reveal any private medical info. JMO

Actually it is. You cannot confirm or deny that a patient has an appointment, unless the caller is listed in the patient's chart for "Release of Information".

That being said, HIPPA is violated constantly, based on common sense. If someone close to a patient calls, with verifiable information, asking a specific question, "This is H, calling about my friend, SW, I am very worried about her, did she attend her medical appointment today?". The receptionist already knows that there is a relationship, that there could be a situation that requires release of information, based on common sense.

Often, this type of call is transferred to the office Manager or nurse, to take responsibility for ROI.