GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #44

[Tortoise]

Do we know yet if she was incapacitated?

I am not sure if the autopsy report is out but am only so far as thread 11!

There's going to be a hearing (requested by the press I believe) to determine whether the autopsy should remain sealed.

 

[Tortoise]

I've been on True Crime sabbatical since the Ian Stewart trial

Not too dissimilar to this case, with oil tanks and in that case the underground cesspit. Disgusting monsters. Stewart also put Helen's beloved dachshund Boris in the sewer with her, for those who don't know the case, because he knew Helen wouldn't have gone away on her own volition without him.

 

[Tortoise]

I know there are some profiles where he would murder the whole family then kill himself.

Maybe he bottled that last part?

RSBM.

I think he wanted a new life with his lover, so suicide wasn't ever on the cards. Now that he has been caught and faces the rest of his life in an orange suit or the death penalty, it might be a different story.

 

[Mellowmelly]

Obviously there has been lots of discussion in these threads about Narcissistic / Psychopathic /Abusive behaviour

But I am kind of coming round to the view that it might just be another tragic example of the kind of brutality men are capable of - perhaps without any real warning signs.

Man has affair, murders wife in heat of the moment is after all, one of the oldest plots.

The kids on top is the purest of evil.

Who could do that - and in such a personal cold blooded way?

I lean towards the idea he murdered the kids while she was away and planned to murder her in cold blood.

Had he simply murdered her in an argument why murder the kids?

I know there are some profiles where he would murder the whole family then kill himself.

Maybe he bottled that last part?

I agree, I think he murdered Bella and Cece first and then planned to murder Shannan when he got home, hence him outside barbecuing alone. He did that to make it look like just another normal day, in case neighbors spotted him, when it was anything but a normal day.

 

[Tortoise]

I agree, I think he murdered Bella and Cece first and then planned to murder Shannan when he got home, hence him outside barbecuing alone. He did that to make it look like just another normal day, in case neighbors spotted him, when it was anything but a normal day.

I agree. I think he may have killed them at bedtime (around 6:30/7pm) when it was naturally still light enough to have noticed their color. I'm not sure if Shanann would have gone in to see the girls when she came home so tired, if they had awoken she would then have to get them back to sleep which would delay her then being able to get right to sleep.

 

[scandinavian girl]

Not too dissimilar to this case, with oil tanks and in that case the underground cesspit. Disgusting monsters. Stewart also put Helen's beloved dachshund Boris in the sewer with her, for those who don't know the case, because he knew Helen wouldn't have gone away on her own volition without him.

Have been thinking about Ian Stewart all along while reading about CW. His story about Nick and Joe and how obvious it was that he lied when they showed the policetapes.

 

[Mellowmelly]

I agree. I think he may have killed them at bedtime (around 6:30/7pm) when it was naturally still light enough to have noticed their color. I'm not sure if Shanann would have gone in to see the girls when she came home so tired, if they had awoken she would then have to get them back to sleep which would delay her then being able to get right to sleep.

I’m not sure either, if you trust your spouse with your children, you’d trust he got them to bed safely and not necessarily want to go in and check on them with the possibility of waking them up when you’re exhausted from a flight and pregnant.

 

[Tortoise]

I agree, I think he murdered Bella and Cece first and then planned to murder Shannan when he got home, hence him outside barbecuing alone. He did that to make it look like just another normal day, in case neighbors spotted him, when it was anything but a normal day.

Yep, how do you get people to observe you having a normal hunky dory time - cook outside and let the smell of the food attract attention!

 

[mrjitty]

I have a problem with CW hiding the phone. Not hiding it per se, but why would he hide it, and why the sofa? If he wanted to hide it, why not put it in her purse on the kitchen counter? Or put it in the suit case? Or in a drawer. But, why would he hide it? He didn't expect anyone in the house and he left it locked tighter than a drum. If he did hide it, why the sofa?

One of the troubles is these kind of cases is we are looking at a partial crime scene staging, and the early stuff was done under big time pressure

He prioritised hiding the bodies and dealing with the sheets, as his main staging activities that we know about at this stage.

But we don't know what story he planned to present in the end and we don't know how the crime scene would finally have looked.

So I do agree - maybe he didn't hide the phone there. Maybe it just fell there, or she herself hid it there.

IMO it makes sense for it to be there.

I'd come home, and check on the kids. Maybe stop to check messages in the dark.

 

[mrjitty]

I’m not sure either, if you trust your spouse with your children, you’d trust he got them to bed safely and not necessarily want to go in and check on them with the possibility of waking them up when you’re exhausted from a flight and pregnant.

She may have gone to check on them because she suddenly had reason to do so - e.g. strange behaviour

 

[Tortoise]

Have been thinking about Ian Stewart all along while reading about CW. His story about Nick and Joe and how obvious it was that he lied when they showed the policetapes.

In their concern for (above all else) having their lies believed they forget to show believable concern for their missing loved ones!

Good the see you again.

 

[mrjitty]

IMO, he thought he would have more time to set the scene. He didn’t expect NUA to be so proactive. He may even have believed that the police would not take a missing persons report for 48 hours, like on tv.

IMO Hiding the bodies was of primary importance. He expected to “stage the scene” after work. When he realized police were at the house, he made up the lie about not being able to get them in the house (key pad broken??)

When he got home, I believe he entered the house first. Found the phone and slid it into the cushions because it was convenient/ would not draw too much attention In his mind.

Yes - this is the problem

I think he intended to stage a different story, after work

So what we are looking at is an incomplete staging, with a story made up on the spot.

There may not be a narrative as to why the phone is where it is - he may have had to hide it immediately with the police in his house.

 

[NuttMegg]

Does anyone else think the AP may have given CW an ultimatum after learning SW returned to their home in Colorado after the NC trip?

I do.

Probably ultimatum while she was in NC, and breakup on the Saturday night preceding the mass murder.

 

[Tortoise]

I've seen mention of garbage bags in several posts. Did he use them or are people merely presupposing he did?

 

[Mellowmelly]

I've seen mention of garbage bags in several posts. Did he use them or are people merely presupposing he did?

There was talk about a garbage bag being found at the site where the bodies were found, with a foot print or partial foot print, not sure which now. The prosecution then requested CW foot prints, DNA ect.

 

[molly1255]

Probably ultimatum while she was in NC, and breakup on the Saturday night preceding the mass murder.

I agree with you on this and he kept telling her that he was working on it. On Monday, he would be able to report to AP that put his really foot down with SW and she took the girls and left.

 

[Mo Thuairim]

I always figured she was gonna sleep on the couch, either to not wake anyone or because of their issues, she didn't want to sleep w him. If she even made it that far, otherwise I think it was tossed there in a struggle.

Do you think she put sheets on the couch? Sleeping on a leather couch with no sheets does not sound appealing to me.

Agree. Leather couches are not that comfortable along with the night sweats.

I no longer buy cars with leather seats neither. Jmo.

Too cold during the winter and too hot during the summer. Jmo.

It was actually a pretty comfy-looking sectional sofa rather than a leather couch.
Only the back was leather and the cushions appear to be some kind of suede-like material.
No idea if she slept there but you would be quite comfortable with just a blanket or throw, I reckon. You can see it in this video (about 5.45 mins in gives you a good view).
Shanann Watts

 

[PajamaSleuth]

IMO, the girls were killed before SW got home. She would not check on them because she would not want to wake them. Plus, she was exhausted! She felt that she had to get to sleep ASAP because the girls would wake up soon so she needed to get as much sleep as possible, expecting a full day with energetic little ones and a doctor appt.

 

[Tortoise]

Maybe he would have left her phone switched on (and not switched off and buried with her) so that he could leave his loving and concerned messages for her that morning as proof it was a normal day and he thought she would pick up.

 

[Tortoise]

IMO, the girls were killed before SW got home. She would not check on them because she would not want to wake them. Plus, she was exhausted! She felt that she had to get to sleep ASAP because the girls would wake up soon so she needed to get as much sleep as possible, expecting a full day with energetic little ones and a doctor appt.

Yes and if he was wrong in predicting that she wouldn't check on the girls he could always insist she should not and assure herself the girls were fine on the monitor, knowing that they just looked like they were asleep.