Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW GUILTY* #52

[Thepoet]

Since the Watts parents interview, with Mother Watts outright bashing and blaming Shanann, and both of them hardly mentioning their sweet, innocent, adorable grandchildren, all while propping up and excusing their son who is charged with and intends to plead guilty to killing them all... I have really been trying hard to put myself in their shoes. Just to see. Maybe as a domestic abuse survivor, I am overidentifying with Shanann and failing to see their side, right? I have to consider it before I take a stand.

So I've been asking myself, what would I do, if when my girls are grown, one of them were to do this. This exact situation. And I have to say, there's no way. There's no way I would ever feel their spouse deserved to be murdered (unless we are either talking about direct self-defense or abused partner syndrome, which clearly wasn't the case here). There's no way I would be more upset about my child going to prison than the brutal murder of 2 plus one soon-to-be grandchildren. I might believe my child's lie about the spouse killing the children and going into a rage for a bit, while I'm still in shock, out of sheer desperation, but eventually it just doesn't add up anymore. And the oil tanks?! No! If my daughter could do that to her children's bodies... all bets are off. And god knows, even if I did believe it, I would spend the entire interview talking about how much my daughter loved her children and would never hurt them and the rage and terror she must have felt finding out that her spouse killed them, rather than airing my petty grievances about the spouse and how I never liked them. And at some point, the evidence just adds up. Even the stories he personally told his parents conflict. He did it. He did it to his pregnant wife and his baby girls. His parents truly just don't care. They believe, like Chris did, that these were not human beings but Chris' property to dispose of when and how he felt like it. I did my best to try to empathize with these people and walk in their shoes, and I can't. Because I have a conscience and they don't. Sorry for the rant! @sun16 's statement just struck a chord of truth in me.

Very well said. Kudos. Sorry for what you went through and glad that you survived.

 

[sun16]

Oh he definitely knows the truth about that night. I just think he has told so many lies about Shan'ann, that he started to believe them and couldn't keep the truth and lies divided anymore. JMO

It is especially telling that affair partner NK said he lied about eveeything — and they didn’t even really know each other yet. How pathetic is that! That probably means he lies to everyone about all types of things.

 

[Thepoet]

@SaguaroSpirit and @MsBetsy, we are moving, too! It is never, ever ending. Also, this time of year? What are we thinking? GAH! Lol! Good luck to you both! I need to ice my back a lot, so this thread has been an interesting and thought-provoking way to pass the time!

Currently listening to an audio book and the woman mentions she divorced after being together for 7 years before a divorce and then her having sole custody when he abandoned his parental rights. Then I remember someone saying saying CW and SW were together about 7 years before August. With all the comparisons to CW and Scott Peterson, I looked up to see how long they were together and I couldn’t find an exact date, but it could have been around the 7 year mark, give or take a year.

These may all me small coincidences, but I did start wondering if is The 7 Year Itch a real thing for FA? And how long is an average FA with their signifigant other before the... well... you know?

OMG! You may have come up with something. Jeffery and Colette MacDonald were married seven (7) years when he murdered his family!

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Does anyone know which is the best livestream to go with tomorrow where I can get full and uninterrupted coverage from start to finish, including the District Attorney’s press conference? I plan to plop myself down and sit there from beginning to end.

In the past, we never know ahead of time. It seems like that way at least. A lot of times we think HLN will be great, but then they interrupt for commercials and it drives us all mad! During it, I am sure that many of us will in real-time tell others which is the best one. That is what has happened in the past.

Just be here and online and refresh, and folks will help you out in real time. And remember, it is starting for one channel about one and a quarter hours earlier as far as their broadcast.

What to expect during Monday's sentencing of Chris Watts for the murder of Shanann Watts, 2 children

What you can expect from the Coloradoan:

The Coloradoan will have reporters in court in Greeley on Monday and live in Frederick during the sentencing of Christopher Watts.

Coverage will begin about 8:45 a.m., with a live broadcast on Facebook from the courthouse. We will review what we know, how the case has progressed so far and what we can hope to learn Monday.

About 9 a.m., we will have a live broadcast on Facebook from Frederick, exploring how this case has impacted the small town north of Denver.

Sentencing is scheduled to run until about noon Monday, and live updates will be posted on Coloradoan.com.

We will provide a livestream of the sentencing hearing from our partners at 9NEWS on Coloradoan.com and on Facebook starting at 10 a.m. Monday.

The Coloradoan will broadcast Weld County District Attorney Michael Rourke's news conference at 1 p.m. Monday.

Full coverage and analysis will be available at Coloradoan.com throughout the day.

 

[Chloe_ee]

I have some family friends that are like that. Nothing they say is the truth. There will be bits of truth in what they say but never the complete truth. Eventually, they believe what the say. I can't imagine being married to someone like that.

My Brother-in-law is like this, he lies when the truth is just as easy. Pathological behavior for sure, my BIL has two ex-wives, and abandoned both marriages and the child he had from each ex. Just up and moved away from them. What he didn't do was murder them all.

Why couldn't CW just take off like my BIL did, and my BIL dumped TWO ex-wives and TWO children...just split. Yes, he has to pay child support x 2 and doesn't see the kids, does not co-parent, he made sure he moved far enough away from them that he didn't have to. One of the kids he hasn't seen in 7 years (is now 10), BIL has not seen the kid, not once, since the boy was 3 years old, and the other kid he sees once a year she is 16. It can be done without murdering the entire family...

 

[Layla123]

In the past, we never know ahead of time. It seems like that way at least. A lot of times we think HLN will be great, but then they interrupt for commercials and it drives us all mad! During it, I am sure that many of us will in real-time tell others which is the best one. That is what has happened in the past.

Just be here and online and refresh, and folks will help you out in real time. And remember, it is starting for one channel about two and a quarter hours earlier as far as their broadcast.

What to expect during Monday's sentencing of Chris Watts for the murder of Shanann Watts, 2 children

Which one will you start with? Have you decided yet?

 

[Lore Listener]

As I’ve mentioned, in the last 2 mass shooting cases LE has said something along the lines of how we can not “rationalize the irrational.”

There is actually a similarity between mass shooters and CW IMO, which is the potentially narcissistic element of blaming someone else for everything and “annihilating” a group. In the case of mass shooters, it can be a certain demographic group (not always) who in the mind of the shooter is to blame for everything. In CW’s case it was his own family, so one element of what is shared between CW and these mass shooters IMO is this outward blaming of others and potentiality to kill, and not just one person (as if that is not bad enough).

I can not help but think about my own man drama past and present as we discuss CW’s infidelities, lies, etc. I have decided that, like with mass shooters, no matter how dissatisfied or angry we are, we would never kill someone else and/or annhilate an entire group of people or family (or even single person).

I guess what I’m saying is that there is a clear and difference between us and them and it is this “line” that is so hard to understand.

I know that CW was likely selfish and wanted them gone so he could continue with his new life, etc, but really, just as we discuss the mental sanity of mass shooters, I really think that something has to be really screwed up in someone’s head to a serious degree to kill your whole family, a pregnant woman, baby girls...how can this be denied? Normal people would never and could never do something like this. There is something within him, like mass shooters, which lends itself to crossing that line into “annihilation”, moo.

Furthermore, all this past talk by some about SW being controlling, etc. So what if she was controlling. All of that discussion is so useless because it does not warrant murder.

Thank you for this. I believe it's so important that society not take the easy way out by saying that we can never understand these perpetrators or they are just evil, so why try? Well, it's true they are evil, and while we may never be able to empathize or relate, we can certainly strive to understand. That is our only hope for stopping future murders. That is what drew me, and so many of us, to true crime and these boards. It's what drew my family member to be a prosecutor and me to study human behavior in social work school. We must ask the hard questions about WHY these people did these horrific things and how we can work to make sure there is never another family annihilated. I do think everyone should read "The Sociopath Next Door" and "Why Does He Do That" so that we are all aware that sociopaths, narcissists, and abusers not only exist but are causing an epidemic of violence and social disruption, and interventions must be addressed as soon as possible to protect their victims.

 

[Lore Listener]

Bottom line is CW never seemed sad that his children were dead. Not even a little. That's a big part of why I never could comprehend how someone would be on the fence and buy into his story -- whoever killed "those children," WHERE WAS HIS GRIEF? How could he know his children were DEAD and giggle on camera, and not betray an iota of devastation? It's unfathomable. Something is very, very wrong with him. Sorry to repeat what has been said but when I think of him in the car with his dead, knowing his children were dead and stuffed in oil tanks and not just missing, how could he possibly hold it together? And yes, he certainly seemed angry when the reporter mentioned that his wife was pregnant. He obviously wanted that piece of information to stay hidden.

With the guilty pleas and sentencing coming tomorrow, and the new interviews from NK and the Watts family, posters on this board have become so clear and insightful this weekend! Gosh people, you are amazing. Keep the brilliant posts coming please!

 

[Skillz]

This may have already been said but one thing I noticed about Cindy Watt’s interview was that she kept using the word “I.” It was all about her, she needed to know the truth and she needed to know what happened and she doesn’t know how she is going to get through this. She didn’t say a whole lot about her granddaughters, which was odd.

Chris Watts had a similar time when he spoke to media when his family was missing. He kept saying I. “I just want them back...I can’t stay here...etc.” this has to stop. It was all about him.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

How dare they!

They are terrible , apparently their lack of intelligence results in coming up with topics like this to discuss, they went on to muse what was Shanann thinking as her husband strangled her. I have no words sufficient enough to describe my disgust.

 

[BeanieBod]

@SaguaroSpirit and @MsBetsy, we are moving, too! It is never, ever ending. Also, this time of year? What are we thinking? GAH! Lol! Good luck to you both! I need to ice my back a lot, so this thread has been an interesting and thought-provoking way to pass the time!

Currently listening to an audio book and the woman mentions she divorced after being together for 7 years before a divorce and then her having sole custody when he abandoned his parental rights. Then I remember someone saying saying CW and SW were together about 7 years before August. With all the comparisons to CW and Scott Peterson, I looked up to see how long they were together and I couldn’t find an exact date, but it could have been around the 7 year mark, give or take a year.

These may all me small coincidences, but I did start wondering if is The 7 Year Itch a real thing for FA? And how long is an average FA with their signifigant other before the... well... you know?

OMG! You may have come up with something. Jeffery and Colette MacDonald were married seven (7) years when he murdered his family!

Long ago, there was a movie starring Marilyn Monroe - The Seven Year Itch. It was a romance/comedy with no one being killed off. But a lot of people started commenting about the 7 year mark in marriages.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Long ago, there was a movie starring Marilyn Monroe - The Seven Year Itch. It was a romance/comedy with no one being killed off. But a lot of people started commenting about the 7 year mark in marriages.

I think it might be a stage of boredom after 7 years, when the "romance" and "sparkle" have worn off of some relationships that were mostly based on lust and physical attraction.

 

[greatminds]

I think your point about the mother/ son dynamic and being parallel to his relationship with Shanann is significant. He married an assertive, powerful woman like his mother. He eventually came to resent her, as he may have subconsciously resented and hated his mothers control all his life. There is a lot of research about murderers who kill women who had serious issues with their mothers during the inportant years of development. It can definitely play a role in cases like this. Ultimately he is finally taking out all his aggression and revenge on his wife, who he associates with his mother. Now his wife is gone and he seemingly wants nothing more to do with his mother, as if she is now out of the picture too. Imo

d

 

[Misy]

Regarding the victim impact statements.... a question for our awesome lawyers. Is the judge actually ever swayed by these? Is the judges mind already made up as far as what the sentence handed down will be....or..... in your experience or knowledge are judges sometimes swayed enough by these statements to change their sentence? TIA

 

[scdiv]

What is weird is, he’d have to call dad back and see him and say ... hey, you know what I said in the car about her taking off? Actually I killed her instead. That had to be a shocker for dad. Yet he sat there pretty calm and unemotional in the joint interview with Chris’s mom, given months later, and still seemed like they aren’t sure what happened. C’mon man! These people do not seem like they have ever liked or cared about Shanann and the girls.

You would think if CW had told his father in the car that he had killed SW, the father would have said, you can't talk to the police anymore without a lawyer present. Quite honestly, I can't believe he even gave the "confession" he gave without asking for a lawyer first! But... this family didn't seem to even seek legal counsel before letting someone email the judge if he could give them a ring, so who knows!

My guess (from my vast and extensive experience in watching Law & Order episodes and reading fiction novels and posting on crime forums) is that law enforcement was not letting on to CW that they did not believe him. In fact, they probably gave him a ton of room to keep talking - and lying. Like, "Lie to me. Please lie to me." There is a mantra in law enforcement, that sometimes a provable lie is as good as the truth. But as the questions grew, CW probably felt the intensity. At some point they probably confronted him with pieces of evidence that he couldn't explain or lie his way out. That may be when he asked to speak to his father and then gave his "confession."

It's always mind-boggling to me that these suspects don't lawyer up and shut up earlier. But I guess they start off as the oh so helpful victim. Sure, whatever you need. Search the house. Pick up a scent. CW was so dumb he figured he left no evidence in the house, not realizing a cadaver dog would still be able to smell death. He's treated with kid gloves by everyone and I think gets lulled into a false sense of security that everyone is buying his story. Then suddenly it starts falling apart and these liars get even more stubborn and cling to their false narratives and try to front this "I have nothing to hide" bravado, instead of realizing they should shut up and not make confessions without speaking to legal counsel. I can't believe the father let him do that either. (Well actually I can, but in theory that would shock me that he suddenly accuses SW of a crime and confessed to killing her without going back in there with an attorney.)

 

[sun16]

I keep thinking there will be some type of drama that comes out today/last minute, but maybe we’re just ... at the end, and there is nothing left. Until tomorrow I mean.

 

[greatminds]

I think your point about the mother/ son dynamic and being parallel to his relationship with Shanann is significant. He married an assertive, powerful woman like his mother. He eventually came to resent her, as he may have subconsciously resented and hated his mothers control all his life. There is a lot of research about murderers who kill women who had serious issues with their mothers during the inportant years of development. It can definitely play a role in cases like this. Ultimately he is finally taking out all his aggression and revenge on his wife, who he associates with his mother. Now his wife is gone and he seemingly wants nothing more to do with his mother, as if she is now out of the picture too. Imo

I agree, and sense there was a suppressed misogyny happening with CW. Misogyny brings to mind the pathos of other serial killers, such as Jack the Ripper, Ted Bundy, etc. Has there been any mention or concern expressed about whether CW had committed similar acts in the past?

 

[PommyMommy]

I think it might be a stage of boredom after 7 years, when the "romance" and "sparkle" have worn off of some relationships that were mostly based on lust and physical attraction.

I don't think it has as much to do with that as the pregnancy, and I also don't believe that NK was CW's first fling. I think he's cheated before and likely when SW was pregnant. We've seen this with other family annihilators. Also interesting is that in each of the examples below, the fetus was male.

JEFFREY MACDONALD was tried and convicted in 1979 for the February 1970 murders of his pregnant wife and two daughters.
Jeffrey MacDonald | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers

CHARLES STUART murdered his pregnant wife and inflamed racial tensions in the Boston area by concocting a fictitious African-American assailant.
Charles Stuart | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers

JOHN SHARPE killed his wife Anna (who was five months pregnant with their son Francis) and his 20-month-old daughter Gracie with a spear gun. Sharpe later exhumed the body of his wife from a shallow grave, dismembered her, then disposed of her body in a landfill.
Sharpe family murders - Wikipedia

ETA: Not intended to be a complete list.
MOO

 

[Layla123]

You would think if CW had told his father in the car that he had killed SW, the father would have said, you can't talk to the police anymore without a lawyer present. Quite honestly, I can't believe he even gave the "confession" he gave without asking for a lawyer first! But... this family didn't seem to even seek legal counsel before letting someone email the judge if he could give them a ring, so who knows!

My guess (from my vast and extensive experience in watching Law & Order episodes and reading fiction novels and posting on crime forums) is that law enforcement was not letting on to CW that they did not believe him. In fact, they probably gave him a ton of room to keep talking - and lying. Like, "Lie to me. Please lie to me." There is a mantra in law enforcement, that sometimes a provable lie is as good as the truth. But as the questions grew, CW probably felt the intensity. At some point they probably confronted him with pieces of evidence that he couldn't explain or lie his way out. That may be when he asked to speak to his father and then gave his "confession."

It's always mind-boggling to me that these suspects don't lawyer up and shut up earlier. But I guess they start off as the oh so helpful victim. Sure, whatever you need. Search the house. Pick up a scent. CW was so dumb he figured he left no evidence in the house, not realizing a cadaver dog would still be able to smell death. He's treated with kid gloves by everyone and I think gets lulled into a false sense of security that everyone is buying his story. Then suddenly it starts falling apart and they get even more stubborn and cling to their false narrative and try to front this "I have nothing to hide" bravado, instead of realizing they should shut up and not make confessions without speaking to legal counsel. I can't believe the father let him do that either. (Well actually I can, but in theory that would shock me that he suddenly accuses SW of a crime and confessed to killing her without going back in there with an attorney.)

CW thought he was going to get away with it. All their friends and family believed his story, and he thought he was in the clear. Clearly, he underestimated the intelligence, training, and investigative experience of LE.

 

[tmar]

It would be good if the court could approve or not approve the statements they have prepared. Statements proclaiming innocence or any criticism of victims should not be allowed. It is not right for their statements to cause Shan’ann’s family even more distress. I am sure Shan’ann’s family have been caused enough distress already by what has been claimed and said.

If CW's mother begins to criticize Shan'ann, I would think the Judge would stop her.
He could reprimand her, stating if she continues in this line, she must leave.
This would get her in such a state, that she'll 'give up' and sit down.
Her great speech, in her eyes only, would fizzle.
I hope so.
MOO.