GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #58

[yawningreyhound]

Finished. Man, that was a long read. I was struck by how many immune-mediated illnesses were in that household. The stress levels must've been off the charts. Hidden, unmanaged stress. Such a sad chain of events. My own husband asked me yet again, after listening to my occas outbursts at something in the documents, "I don't understand why people don't just walk away. That's a fresh start, too." CW kept a lid on his angry, apparently unfulfilled, self all those years and look what happened when it popped off. He seemed to exercise what control he preceived he had by reshaping his body. Which worked I guess until he started straying. I'm on the fence about the Bolte thing, mostly because it's just so tawdry for a guy married with kids, so....I dunno, so over the top. Anyway, I'm still decompressing. The trial compressed into a 2-day read. That's a new one for this trial watcher. Very efficient, I must say. Thanks for being here, everyone. This is a tragic one.

 

[pocketaccent]

Shanann's parents lived with them? When and where?

Page 680
Interview of Frank Rzucek:
"Rzucek said he and Sandra lived with them for 15 or 16 months, a couple of years ago......"

I believe they came to help with the children when they were sick. They are the best grandparents anyone could hope for.

 

[Tortoise]

Wonder if the family is allowed to say they do not want to settle it and they want it to go to trial to get answers

IANAL But I don't think the plaintiff can refuse to settle if it meets their terms. You can't force a confession, and the inevitable lies would be pointless and hurtful.

 

[Allabouttrial]

Finished. Man, that was a long read. I was struck by how many immune-mediated illnesses were in that household. The stress levels must've been off the charts. Hidden, unmanaged stress. Such a sad chain of events. My own husband asked me yet again, after listening to my occas outbursts at something in the documents, "I don't understand why people don't just walk away. That's a fresh start, too." CW kept a lid on his angry, apparently unfulfilled, self all those years and look what happened when it popped off. He seemed to exercise what control he preceived he had by reshaping his body. Which worked I guess until he started straying. I'm on the fence about the Bolte thing, mostly because it's just so tawdry for a guy married with kids, so....I dunno, so over the top. Anyway, I'm still decompressing. The trial compressed into a 2-day read. That's a new one for this trial watcher. Very efficient, I must say. Thanks for being here, everyone. This is a tragic one.

True and we didn't even get to hear the defense! To be fair though don't think they could have said too much for this one.

 

[Jupiter05]

After CW was arrested, he was SO upset about how he was being portrayed in the media. More so than the remorse and devastation of his family being dead. He was more concerned about what others thought of him after everything that had happened and after he made a partial confession. He was also very concerned about NK's name coming out. And at that point we did not even have many details. He is like a tree without any roots. A shell of a man without any true feelings.

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder if Cindy and Ronnie will try to interject themselves in the civil suit?

My first thought too. We are victims too, budge over...

 

[Jennifer17]

Sadly, there is stigma in the community, and it should be dealth with, as help is available. I have noticed that our kids are way more aware and tolerant of psychiatric disorders than our generation.

As to the numbers, they vary by the country, by the researcher, and mostly, by the time period.

"from the mid-1970s to 2000, the rate of mania (variably labeled major affective disorder–bipolar disorder and bipolar I disorder) was consistently identified in US and international studies as ranging from 0.4% to 1.6%. By the late 1990s to the 2000s, the prevalence reported by some researchers for bipolar disorders (I and II and others) was in the 5% to 7% and higher ranges" (NCBI resources). " I have also read a while ago that 1/3 of people diagnosed with depression will eventually be rediagnosed with bipolar disorder. So, true numbers are not really known.

I have never met the diagnosis that would reflect the views and personal opinions of the specialists more than bipolar disorder, with, possibly, the exception of borderline personality disorder. (It, too, is often used in a derogatory way in the community, which is sad as psychotherapy is available to people suffering from it). Also, given than "mood disorder with mixed features" is used more frequently, the whole group of patients with "depression and anxiety" might be moved to "mixed" group as well.

As I have mentioned, neither of us has seen Shanann. If the Wattses merely pulled the diagnosis out of their noses, it is one thing, but it is also possible that Shanann shared something with Chris, and as he discussed it with his parents, they inflated whatever it was to the extreme.

Shanann's situation might have been complicated by lupus. Anyone who is put on steroids might experience depressive or hypomanic epizode, without being diagnosed with affective disorder.

I believe that they did pull it out of somewhere. She and the children had diagnosed conditions that they refused to believe.
They only wanted to talk about conditions that they had diagnosed, like bi polar and Munchhausen's by Proxy. Anything that they thought was damaging to her and it seems to me, that they are far crazier than they were trying to make her out to be.
If hate and malice can be called conditions, they had it in spades.

 

[stereopticons]

Sadly, there is stigma in the community, and it should be dealth with, as help is available. I have noticed that our kids are way more aware and tolerant of psychiatric disorders than our generation.

As to the numbers, they vary by the country, by the researcher, and mostly, by the time period.

"from the mid-1970s to 2000, the rate of mania (variably labeled major affective disorder–bipolar disorder and bipolar I disorder) was consistently identified in US and international studies as ranging from 0.4% to 1.6%. By the late 1990s to the 2000s, the prevalence reported by some researchers for bipolar disorders (I and II and others) was in the 5% to 7% and higher ranges" (NCBI resources). " I have also read a while ago that 1/3 of people diagnosed with depression will eventually be rediagnosed with bipolar disorder. So, true numbers are not really known.

I have never met the diagnosis that would reflect the views and personal opinions of the specialists more than bipolar disorder, with, possibly, the exception of borderline personality disorder. (It, too, is often used in a derogatory way in the community, which is sad as psychotherapy is available to people suffering from it). Also, given than "mood disorder with mixed features" is used more frequently, the whole group of patients with "depression and anxiety" might be moved to "mixed" group as well.

As I have mentioned, neither of us has seen Shanann. If the Wattses merely pulled the diagnosis out of their noses, it is one thing, but it is also possible that Shanann shared something with Chris, and as he discussed it with his parents, they inflated whatever it was to the extreme.

Shanann's situation might have been complicated by lupus. Anyone who is put on steroids might experience depressive or hypomanic epizode, without being diagnosed with affective disorder.

My 4% number was for adults in the US from the National comorbidity study, which is a very large, nationally representative study. Interested to know what the source is for 1/3 of people with depression are diagnosed with bipolar, as I’ve been in the field for a long time but have never heard this. Any way you can show me this source?

If she was experiencing a mood disorder as a result of her lupus or the medication, there is a diagnosis for that specifically.

Every time I’ve been asked for a diagnostic opinion on this thead, I've prefaced it with I can’t diagnose without seeing anyone. But I still maintain there was nothing evident in her behavior that would suggest bipolar disorder or any of the other disorders suggested over 50-some odd threads.

 

[KALI]

I think he will be a no show.

I'm interested in seeing what CW says during the civil trial.

 

[human]

That sounds right. A 40 pound weight gain over that (short) time period, would be next to impossible.

I would think that the jail and prison both take accurate measurements.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

I believe that they did pull it out of somewhere. She and the children had diagnosed conditions that they refused to believe.
They only wanted to talk about conditions that they had diagnosed, like bi polar and Munchhausen's by Proxy. Anything that they thought was damaging to her and it seems to me, that they are far crazier than they were trying to make her out to be.
If hate and malice can be called conditions, they had it in spades.

100% agree, the foundation of the Watt’s beliefs about Shanaan are based on hate and that negates any opinion as being objective. To give The Watts credit to have the ability and training to correctly diagnose a psychiatric problem is a stretch. The fact that they felt they did nothing wrong during her summer visit to their house, the referenced skater boy statement made 8 years ago- still hanging on to their anger 8 years later over a minor annoyance, is evidence of their delusional state not Shanann’s .

 

[Feyinfrederick]

If CW was on medication for all of his appearances would we know through discovery? He appeared to be in slow motion from what i gathered. Would the defense and prosecution have to disclose that if he was?

 

[Jupiter05]

Page 680
Interview of Frank Rzucek:
"Rzucek said he and Sandra lived with them for 15 or 16 months, a couple of years ago......"

I believe they came to help with the children when they were sick. They are the best grandparents anyone could hope for.

They sure are. I think Shanann had a rough time and little Cece had some surgeries when she was tiny. They gave up a lot in the name of love to support SW and her children. Just imagine the huge hole they have in their hearts.

 

[esayer]

What was it he had on his grill on Sunday night. 4 chicken breasts I think. I'll bet he's sick thinking about that beautiful life he had.

I couldn't work out the purpose of his photo of the inside of his refrigerator.

He was bragging about healthy eating to NK.

 

[Jupiter05]

If CW was on medication for all of his appearances would we know through discovery? He appeared to be in slow motion from what i gathered. Would the defense and prosecution have to disclose that if he was?

I had read in discovery that he refused medication while incarcerated at the Weld County Jail.

 

[Jennifer17]

If CW was on medication for all of his appearances would we know through discovery? He appeared to be in slow motion from what i gathered. Would the defense and prosecution have to disclose that if he was?

I wouldn't think so. HIPPA would cover that, I think.

 

[kay74]

Sadly, there is stigma in the community, and it should be dealth with, as help is available. I have noticed that our kids are way more aware and tolerant of psychiatric disorders than our generation.

As to the numbers, they vary by the country, by the researcher, and mostly, by the time period.

"from the mid-1970s to 2000, the rate of mania (variably labeled major affective disorder–bipolar disorder and bipolar I disorder) was consistently identified in US and international studies as ranging from 0.4% to 1.6%. By the late 1990s to the 2000s, the prevalence reported by some researchers for bipolar disorders (I and II and others) was in the 5% to 7% and higher ranges" (NCBI resources). " I have also read a while ago that 1/3 of people diagnosed with depression will eventually be rediagnosed with bipolar disorder. So, true numbers are not really known.

I have never met the diagnosis that would reflect the views and personal opinions of the specialists more than bipolar disorder, with, possibly, the exception of borderline personality disorder. (It, too, is often used in a derogatory way in the community, which is sad as psychotherapy is available to people suffering from it). Also, given than "mood disorder with mixed features" is used more frequently, the whole group of patients with "depression and anxiety" might be moved to "mixed" group as well.

As I have mentioned, neither of us has seen Shanann. If the Wattses merely pulled the diagnosis out of their noses, it is one thing, but it is also possible that Shanann shared something with Chris, and as he discussed it with his parents, they inflated whatever it was to the extreme.

Shanann's situation might have been complicated by lupus. Anyone who is put on steroids might experience depressive or hypomanic epizode, without being diagnosed with affective disorder.

I am a senior citizen and I've been on steroids for 3 years and they do nothing except take the pain away and increase your appetite! In my opinion this is a bunch of malarkey that Cindy made up. Maybe SHE is that way.

 

[Jupiter05]

I think "Are we bad people" came from NK, and there were many texts from her deleted before this one.

And the answer is yes. Bad bad people.

 

[PommyMommy]

Shanann's parents lived with them? When and where?

Brace yourself for this one. (I've re-typed it exactly how it was written in the document - errors are not mine.) From Sandra Rzucek's letter:

Pg 1265, 1266 (Discovery pg 1403-1404 ) - Shanann got pregnant w/Celeste & pregnancy was really rough on Shanann w/her lupus. Very high risk pregnancy again, but only this one was worst for Shanann. Water weight gain, severe back pain, shortness of breath. Pains in her chest. Fatigue, exhaustion.

My husband and I sold everything but our house and moved out to live with them. To help our daughter in everyway we could. Frank and I had to work to pay our bills too. We were there for fifteen months.

Chris's mom came out to watch the girls for a few days, while Shanann and Chris went on a business trip with leVel, her co. Four nights and five days.

During that time, we weren't allowed to see our grandchildren or even eat dinner with them as soon as we got home. She brought them up stairs and stayed upstairs. She wouldn't let us hold them or anything. I found that very odd. One day I asked her why? She said what the Hell am I here for then? She screamed in my face in front of my granddaughters and said that I was very controlling. I was just like "wow"! I texted Shanann over and over again and she said relax mom. I'll take care of it when we get home. It was ridiculous.. I never spoke to Chris's Mom again. I had enough!!

 

[esayer]

In the discovery document it says he weighed 225 when arrested, not sure where the 185 came from?

I always thought the 225 was from his driver's license. 225 seems like his high weight and 185 would be his weight at arrest, IMO.