GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #59

[bonjoviblonde]

What was the date they extracted the texts and search history from NK's phone?

 

[Bravo]

IMO CW didn't become an evil monster. He always was one.

 

[Thepoet]

Just got back, again. Didn't see any posts about CW being transferred.

He looks different. Beard is gone, mustache only. Looks heavier!

 

[tmar]

Below, an article showing a criminal's confession to stay in a choice of jail:

"Part of Mr. Little’s impetus for talking now, investigators say, is that he seems to prefer the Ector County jail to the noisy, often chaotic environment of a Los Angeles County prison. Investigators who have spoken to him say he also appears to enjoy the attention he is receiving as he recites details only a killer would know, after decades of discussing them with no one.

Officials in Texas said Mr. Little would not be made available for an interview for this article, and a public defender who recently represented him declined to comment.

As the weeks have passed and new cases and details have emerged, more than a dozen local investigators, along with the F.B.I., have flocked to Texas to speak to Mr. Little in person.

The authorities say Mr. Little displays no sign of remorse while discussing the killings. He is exacting with certain details, they say, including where he left the women’s bodies years ago: A dumpster, near a hog pit, under a pecan tree. The investigators say he is matter-of-fact about his actions, and sometimes even chuckles about them; other times, they said, he speaks so quickly, with such excitement, that they struggle to understand his words."

 

[human]

My sense is that Shanann spent several weeks in NC, trying to get some perspective on a marriage that had been going south. In this couple, I see 2 people who operated on 2 different tracks much of the time. She seemed to be the Alpha in the relationship, setting goals, keeping it all together and presenting an image she thought was important or necessary to portray. She also seemed OCD to me, which is a standard very few can live up to. It creates huge pressure. Lots of concern about image and "keeping up with the Jones." It also seems she was all consumed with this Thrive thing, regardless of the fact that it really did not bring in much $$. But she spent huge amounts of time and energy on this nonproductive endevour. This was a very young couple who wanted instant gratification. This IS MY OPINION, and I'm not victim shaming here, but they each lived in their own realities, which did not always converge. The whole 2.4 children and a house in the Burbs, fancy looking car. I'm going to get flack here, but in order for her to do this, she needed to have a real job with a real income. And I do think CW was doing his damndest to try and make this work. I also think this played a huge part (mounting debt) in creating stress and expectations which in the end, CW just could not meet, and he lost it. I in no way, am justifying his behavior, but as I've said before, I do understand it to a point. Such a very sad and tragic situation.

I think he company kept pressure on presenting images and info to use for the sale’s people.

She had tried several other MLM businesses. I wonder what the allure is of MLM? There are so many out there.

 

[curiouschat]

Some other things that jumped out at me from the docu-dump that I haven't really seen discussed. Though I may have missed it. Discovery page 2102 Shannan texted "would you stay with me if I didn't have the kids." If it /had/ gone to trial this seems like it would have looked bad for the possibility of her killing them? (I know it could also be her picking up on his coldness to the kids and /his/ wanting them gone) .

Also I'm not sure where it was at but I thought there was talk of bad blood in the past with her and others about money and I'm just not seeing how she could possibly be making that much with the MLM thing. Though I suppose some people somehow make money on it. I've heard of people going into debt buying product to reach a level of sales. I just don't feel like we have the whole picture.

Here's the thing from discovery page 596 (and I am NOT saying she deserved to die I just find a lot of things perplexing in this case)
"SHANANN got their policies through his cousin’s wife (NICOLE KENNEDY), so he does not know how much they were.
 SHANANN and NICOLE had a falling out over a “money thing.”
 He believed NICOLE and SHANANN’s old boss believed SHANANN had embezzled money from the business."

 

[BingoBongo]

Forgive me if this has been discussed already.

I'd like to know what the legal possibilities are...

If anyone knowingly lied, or presented false "evidence" in an attempt to stymie this case, or the gathering of real evidence...can they be prosecuted? IE the Watts, NK, TB, etc.

 

[mtnlites]

My sense is that Shanann spent several weeks in NC, trying to get some perspective on a marriage that had been going south. In this couple, I see 2 people who operated on 2 different tracks much of the time. She seemed to be the Alpha in the relationship, setting goals, keeping it all together and presenting an image she thought was important or necessary to portray. She also seemed OCD to me, which is a standard very few can live up to. It creates huge pressure. Lots of concern about image and "keeping up with the Jones." It also seems she was all consumed with this Thrive thing, regardless of the fact that it really did not bring in much $$. But she spent huge amounts of time and energy on this nonproductive endevour. This was a very young couple who wanted instant gratification. This IS MY OPINION, and I'm not victim shaming here, but they each lived in their own realities, which did not always converge. The whole 2.4 children and a house in the Burbs, fancy looking car. I'm going to get flack here, but in order for her to do this, she needed to have a real job with a real income. And I do think CW was doing his damndest to try and make this work. I also think this played a huge part (mounting debt) in creating stress and expectations which in the end, CW just could not meet, and he lost it. I in no way, am justifying his behavior, but as I've said before, I do understand it to a point. Such a very sad and tragic situation.

HOW did CW do his "damndest" to make it work?

By cheating on SW with his co-worker?

By ignoring her pleas to communicate?

By refusing to go to couples' therapy? (Until the very end, when he knew it was too late and he wouldn't have to.)

By lying to SW about where he was spending his money?

And, again, if finances were so tight and stressful to him then why was he taking his mistress to expensive meals and on weekend getaways? Spending his money on male companionship? (If the male AP is to be believed.)

And do we have actual proof that SW wasn't bringing in any income? According to the document dump, she was bringing in as much money as CW was with her job.

Look, MLMs aren't my thing. I don't generally buy products from people who sell direct sale items and I don't want to become involved in that kind of thing myself. And it is true that MOST people do not make money at them. But some people DO make actual money at them. Is there ANY proof that SW did not? Can someone direct me to bank statements or LE statements or anything official that shows that SW was not bringing in income?

I welcome a discussion about how this seemingly fell apart, but the problem is that almost every time someone gives it a shot, it's always a list of reasons why CW was "stressed", with the majority of those reasons circling around SW. That makes the convo difficult.

 

[pocketaccent]

This is something I haven’t seen/read. Could someone point me to where there’s more than the 1900page discovery pfd?
I thought I had read it all and I’ve been reading comments with pages long after. Was there maybe additional discovery added?
Thanks in advance

Hello Amy,
"You hold me after that conversation, you hold me....." is on Discovery page 2104.

Discovery page 2104 = PDF page 1909

 

[tmar]

Below: the article about Mr Little, confessing to remain, in a certain jail.

He Says He Got Away With 90 Murders. Now He’s Confessing to Them All.
TIMOTHY WILLIAMS
4 hrs ago

© Nick Ut/Associated Press Samuel Little during a hearing in Los Angeles in 2014.
Nearly every day for weeks, a white-haired man in a wheelchair, his body ravaged by diabetes and heart disease, has been escorted under heavy guard from a Texas jail cell to an interview room to speak about evil.

Day by day, the authorities say, he has recounted details of long-ago murders: faces, places, the layouts of small towns. He has described how he picked up vulnerable women from bars, nightclubs and along streets and strangled them to death in the back seat of his car.

The man, Samuel Little, 78, has confessed to more than 90 murders, investigators say, stretching back almost half a century. Mr. Little already is serving three life sentences for the murders of three Los Angeles women during the 1980s, but the authorities suspect him of killing women in at least 14 states. Investigators say they have established Mr. Little’s ties to about 30 of the murders so far, and have little reason to doubt his confessions.

 

[compass]

Yes it's truly a kick to the gut and would have been an absolute awakening jolt to her psyche. I think that's probably why she was vomiting all night, not because of what she ate or sudden onset of pregnancy sickness.

She exclaimed 'I don't know him', just think about those words, that was her truth - her friend was so alarmed by that she asked 'what do you mean?' Her friend was momentarily scared and Shanann was terrified. That was THE moment she should have paid attention. She saw it, her body had a physical reaction to it, he showed her that he was not at all the man she thought she knew. Appropriate compassion and guilt and empathy for her was absent and in its place was brutal indifference and utterly cold heartless abandonment. He showed her he was dangerous to her emotional well-being. It's a step up for her to think she was in physical danger, but someone who can cast you adrift just like that doesn't deserve the chance to show you whether they are capable of physically harming you. He had already stuck the knife in her heart, the center that joined them.

It's natural IMO to want to push away such world shattering knowledge, I call it higher wisdom, and to want so badly to get back to the safety of the old world one inhabited, but if only she had done what she said she felt like doing - stayed in NC. I think there is a valuable lesson in this. Not a lesson in avoiding a murdering sociopath but in understanding when we are working against our higher wisdom. She saw the old Chris was just an illusion and while it was painful and shocking to accept that reality she also was terrified by what she had seen and she begged him to make her feel safe. That is the will kicking back against or interfering with the body's truth.

Thank you Tortoise for this! I like your term “higher wisdom”, natural instinct is something we all have but rarely need to listen to as much as Shanann did. The what if’s are heartbreaking!

 

[PommyMommy]

I’m not sure. I think the packet was created before they contacted her, but updated as necessary. Obtaining the phone records, even on exigency, would have taken some period of time.

The fact that the search of her vehicle was listed before the mention of the phone records, indicates that these things weren’t done before initial contact.

They wouldn’t have searched her car before meeting with her, and likewise, probably didn’t have her phone records at this point.

That could be. I don't think it was a search of her vehicle, though. I understand it to be a search for her vehicle via motor vehicle records. Here's the last line again so you don't have to go back:

Law Enforcement Support Packet, LPR Search for KESSINGER’S vehicle, KESSINGER’S phone records received from Verizon Wireless on an exigency request.

 

[MassGuy]

Some other things that jumped out at me from the docu-dump that I haven't really seen discussed. Though I may have missed it. Discovery page 2102 Shannan texted "would you stay with me if I didn't have the kids." If it /had/ gone to trial this seems like it would have looked bad for the possibility of her killing them? (I know it could also be her picking up on his coldness to the kids and /his/ wanting them gone) .

Also I'm not sure where it was at but I thought there was talk of bad blood in the past with her and others about money and I'm just not seeing how she could possibly be making that much with the MLM thing. Though I suppose some people somehow make money on it. I've heard of people going into debt buying product to reach a level of sales. I just don't feel like we have the whole picture.

Here's the thing from discovery page 596 (and I am NOT saying she deserved to die I just find a lot of things perplexing in this case)
"SHANANN got their policies through his cousin’s wife (NICOLE KENNEDY), so he does not know how much they were.
 SHANANN and NICOLE had a falling out over a “money thing.”
 He believed NICOLE and SHANANN’s old boss believed SHANANN had embezzled money from the business."

I mentioned this is a previous post, but Shanann’s comment “Would you stay with me if we didn’t have the kids?” Isn’t the least bit incriminating (page 2102).

She wanted to know if CW still loved her, or was just hanging around because of the children.

I’m sure this question has been posed countless times, by women who want to know if their partner is still in love with them.

This question was in no way nefarious. It was a natural question to ask.

 

[MassGuy]

That could be. I don't think it was a search of her vehicle, though. I understand it to be a search for her vehicle via motor vehicle records. Here's the last line again so you don't have to go back:

Law Enforcement Support Packet, LPR Search for KESSINGER’S vehicle, KESSINGER’S phone records received from Verizon Wireless on an exigency request.

Gotcha, I did misread that. We do know that she provided LE with both her phone, and her phone records though.

I’m just not sure they had them that fast, fast enough to have looked at them before the initial interview.

 

[mtnlites]

I think he company kept pressure on presenting images and info to use for the sale’s people.

She had tried several other MLM businesses. I wonder what the allure is of MLM? There are so many out there.

Allure of MLMs:

- you can work from home, something that's alluring when you have young children or a chronic illness
- you can set your own hours (again, something that those of us with chronic illnesses appreciate)
- the potential is there to earn a great deal of money (note I said "potential")
- the culture of MLMs can be enticing. Think of it as one big club with instant membership and fellowship with other women/sellers
- the perks can be great (as you achieve different levels you can potentially earn free trips and other prizes)

It's alluring because the entire marketing scheme behind the majority of MLMs is to convince people that sellers are living fabulous lives with tons of money. Every MLM I've ever seen has pushed the idea of their sellers living in fantastic homes, making lots of dough, going on incredible trips, and working around their own schedules. Who wouldn't like that? I would. The reality is not quite the same, but the MLM is selling a dream more than anything else. And they do a damn good job of it.

 

[PommyMommy]

My sense is that Shanann spent several weeks in NC, trying to get some perspective on a marriage that had been going south. In this couple, I see 2 people who operated on 2 different tracks much of the time. She seemed to be the Alpha in the relationship, setting goals, keeping it all together and presenting an image she thought was important or necessary to portray. She also seemed OCD to me, which is a standard very few can live up to. It creates huge pressure. Lots of concern about image and "keeping up with the Jones." It also seems she was all consumed with this Thrive thing, regardless of the fact that it really did not bring in much $$. But she spent huge amounts of time and energy on this nonproductive endevour. This was a very young couple who wanted instant gratification. This IS MY OPINION, and I'm not victim shaming here, but they each lived in their own realities, which did not always converge. The whole 2.4 children and a house in the Burbs, fancy looking car. I'm going to get flack here, but in order for her to do this, she needed to have a real job with a real income. And I do think CW was doing his damndest to try and make this work. I also think this played a huge part (mounting debt) in creating stress and expectations which in the end, CW just could not meet, and he lost it. I in no way, am justifying his behavior, but as I've said before, I do understand it to a point. Such a very sad and tragic situation.

CW told LE that she made about the same amount of money that he did, so it was not an unproductive endeavor. I apologize that I don't have a page reference, but I believe it's in the polygraph interview? MOO

ETA: Here is one reference from Pg 504 (Discovery pg 571) - "CHRIS said she made close to the same amount of money as he did."

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Can someone tell me what page the "creepy laugh" comment is on? TIA.

ETA: MassGuy answered me 2096.

I assume it's similar to Jodi Arias giggle in her sex tapes.

 

[Sabrina1011]

We don't know if she called at all.

I do remember seeing somewhere in that 2000 page document that someone from the oil company found emails between the two: NK and CW. Not sure if it was before she was interviewed or after.

 

[Thepoet]

I'm confused. Who did the say, had the creepy laugh? At first I thought it was NK. after some posts (above), I'm not sure. Having a very hard time with the Discovery docs and it's a slow go. I'm a fast reader, it's the sadness and pain that slows me down and even causes me to take a break from reading. Thanks for any help.

 

[mtnlites]

I mentioned this is a previous post, but Shanann’s comment “Would you stay with me if we didn’t have the kids?” Isn’t the least bit incriminating (page 2102).

She wanted to know if CW still loved her, or was just hanging around because of the children.

I’m sure this question has been posed countless times, by women who want to know if their partner is still in love with them.

This question was in no way nefarious. It was a natural question to ask.

Yep. Many women have asked the same question of their husband/boyfriend. I have. When your marriage is going through difficulty, I think it's natural to wonder if the two of you would still be together if you were childless. After all, many people choose to stay together "because of the kids."