GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #59

[TrifleMars]

My sense is that Shanann spent several weeks in NC, trying to get some perspective on a marriage that had been going south. In this couple, I see 2 people who operated on 2 different tracks much of the time. She seemed to be the Alpha in the relationship, setting goals, keeping it all together and presenting an image she thought was important or necessary to portray. She also seemed OCD to me, which is a standard very few can live up to. It creates huge pressure. Lots of concern about image and "keeping up with the Jones." It also seems she was all consumed with this Thrive thing, regardless of the fact that it really did not bring in much $$. But she spent huge amounts of time and energy on this nonproductive endevour. This was a very young couple who wanted instant gratification. This IS MY OPINION, and I'm not victim shaming here, but they each lived in their own realities, which did not always converge. The whole 2.4 children and a house in the Burbs, fancy looking car. I'm going to get flack here, but in order for her to do this, she needed to have a real job with a real income. And I do think CW was doing his damndest to try and make this work. I also think this played a huge part (mounting debt) in creating stress and expectations which in the end, CW just could not meet, and he lost it. I in no way, am justifying his behavior, but as I've said before, I do understand it to a point. Such a very sad and tragic situation.

It's heartbreaking to consider that her dreams, aspirations and ambition ultimately played a part in that monsters decision to kill her and her daughters. Then to callously bury her face down...just awful

 

[riolove77]

The discovery doesn’t say what time she called. Everyone here keeps saying she called in the afternoon, but I haven’t seen that anywhere. I keep asking for links, but so far, none. I do think she’s a victim of CW, too. I hate to see her being treated like the Scarlet Letter if the things people are saying aren’t true. For example, everyone says they are sure she looked up SW on Facebook. NK told LE she didn’t have FB. If you don’t have FB, you don’t see much when searching people on FB.

It's a fact in discovery that she had "hours of searching Shan'ann Watts" prior to her going missing, and after as well. But she flat out said in that interview that when she and CW first started their relationship, she "didn't know his wife's name". Fact of the matter is no, she is not a killer and did not have any foresight into this vicious crime, but she IS in fact a liar. I think she had no idea whatsoever that his sentencing meant that anything further would come of this. She certainly did not anticipate the discovery dump that would conflict with several of the things she said to the Denver Post.

 

[daisy6441]

HOW did CW do his "damndest" to make it work?

By cheating on SW with his co-worker?

By ignoring her pleas to communicate?

By refusing to go to couples' therapy? (Until the very end, when he knew it was too late and he wouldn't have to.)

By lying to SW about where he was spending his money?

And, again, if finances were so tight and stressful to him then why was he taking his mistress to expensive meals and on weekend getaways? Spending his money on male companionship? (If the male AP is to be believed.)

And do we have actual proof that SW wasn't bringing in any income? According to the document dump, she was bringing in as much money as CW was with her job.

Look, MLMs aren't my thing. I don't generally buy products from people who sell direct sale items and I don't want to become involved in that kind of thing myself. And it is true that MOST people do not make money at them. But some people DO make actual money at them. Is there ANY proof that SW did not? Can someone direct me to bank statements or LE statements or anything official that shows that SW was not bringing in income?

I welcome a discussion about how this seemingly fell apart, but the problem is that almost every time someone gives it a shot, it's always a list of reasons why CW was "stressed", with the majority of those reasons circling around SW. That makes the convo difficult.

I also thought it was said earlier that she was making good money with her business.
Every one keeps saying CW is a narcissist so it would more likely be him wanting to 'keep up with the Jones' and put out a veneer of wealth and status. He is smiling and hugging her to him in all those pictures from her Thrive trips.

 

[AbbyG]

My sense is that Shanann spent several weeks in NC, trying to get some perspective on a marriage that had been going south. In this couple, I see 2 people who operated on 2 different tracks much of the time. She seemed to be the Alpha in the relationship, setting goals, keeping it all together and presenting an image she thought was important or necessary to portray. She also seemed OCD to me, which is a standard very few can live up to. It creates huge pressure. Lots of concern about image and "keeping up with the Jones." It also seems she was all consumed with this Thrive thing, regardless of the fact that it really did not bring in much $$. But she spent huge amounts of time and energy on this nonproductive endevour. This was a very young couple who wanted instant gratification. This IS MY OPINION, and I'm not victim shaming here, but they each lived in their own realities, which did not always converge. The whole 2.4 children and a house in the Burbs, fancy looking car. I'm going to get flack here, but in order for her to do this, she needed to have a real job with a real income. And I do think CW was doing his damndest to try and make this work. I also think this played a huge part (mounting debt) in creating stress and expectations which in the end, CW just could not meet, and he lost it. I in no way, am justifying his behavior, but as I've said before, I do understand it to a point. Such a very sad and tragic situation.

Wow. If you get flack it's because you include so many false assumptions in your conclusions. CW was doing his damnedest to try to make this work?? While using Tindr, having an affair, buying the affair jewelry, buying gift cards to wine and dine her, possibly paying for sex in another ongoing sex relationship, buying himself Tbones despite his wife making him prepared meals, and yes you seem to have forgotten that Shan'ann in addition to being the primary caregiver made JUST AS MUCH MONEY AS HE DID though direct sales. I would say Shan'ann was trying and DOING her damnedest to accommodate a spoiled, entitled, carousing and vain, lazy husband.

 

[SuziQ]

Forgive me if this has been discussed already.

I'd like to know what the legal possibilities are...

If anyone knowingly lied, or presented false "evidence" in an attempt to stymie this case, or the gathering of real evidence...can they be prosecuted? IE the Watts, NK, TB, etc.

That would be obstruction of justice and you can get up to ten years in most states.

 

[Gardener1850]

My sense is that Shanann spent several weeks in NC, trying to get some perspective on a marriage that had been going south. In this couple, I see 2 people who operated on 2 different tracks much of the time. She seemed to be the Alpha in the relationship, setting goals, keeping it all together and presenting an image she thought was important or necessary to portray. She also seemed OCD to me, which is a standard very few can live up to. It creates huge pressure. Lots of concern about image and "keeping up with the Jones." It also seems she was all consumed with this Thrive thing, regardless of the fact that it really did not bring in much $$. But she spent huge amounts of time and energy on this nonproductive endevour. This was a very young couple who wanted instant gratification. This IS MY OPINION, and I'm not victim shaming here, but they each lived in their own realities, which did not always converge. The whole 2.4 children and a house in the Burbs, fancy looking car. I'm going to get flack here, but in order for her to do this, she needed to have a real job with a real income. And I do think CW was doing his damndest to try and make this work. I also think this played a huge part (mounting debt) in creating stress and expectations which in the end, CW just could not meet, and he lost it. I in no way, am justifying his behavior, but as I've said before, I do understand it to a point. Such a very sad and tragic situation.

SW reportedly made $80,000 per year. I don't call that peanuts. She made close to or more than CW.

 

[bonjoviblonde]

I just started reading the entire document dump. It was so strange to read that her best friend Nicole was also nicknamed Nikki by most people who gave interviews. ( I Now understand that the affair partner had the same nickname)

I wonder if some of them did that purposely? Because both girls had the same nickname? Confusing.

Everyone I know named Nicole goes by Nicki. My daughter has 3 friends named Nicki, all born in the early 90s. 3 Nickis and 2 Ashleys, all in the same friend group.

 

[PommyMommy]

I think you are right. "Locate and attempt to interview her" makes it sound like they had not yet had any contact with her. You said she called in sick on Tuesday? Maybe she thought they would not find out about her if she just stayed out of the office while police were there interviewing coworkers? CW called her 5 times in the wee hours of the morning on the 14th. Maybe he was assuring her he had hidden all her photos and deleted all their messages and if she just stayed home sick for a few days this would all blow over?
If he mentioned talking to the police at all he probably told her what she wanted to hear-- that their secret was safe. I'm still gobsmacked she googled to find out if the police could recover deleted texts... I kind of wonder if CW asked her to do that search for him or if he had been reassuring her the police couldn't find their deleted texts and she didn't believe him so she googled it. Because it sounds like an idea CW might have come up with-- we know from SW's texts to her friend that CW was deleting messages from his dad right away. He probably thought if he deleted right away the messages would be harder to recover (and some of his were not recovered according to the documents).
My head is spinning with all this info. I think "deleting texts" needs to be on the list of things that point to CW's premeditation for sure.
Whoever said he is an "evil robot" hit the nail on the head (I think it was MassGuy).

MOO.

I haven't confirmed that she called in sick or what day it was. The only place I've seen it is in the handwritten notes. I have a list of things to check on and that's one of them. Something tells me that she was the instigator behind all the deletions. She suggested he close his Facebook, she suggested he get a separate bank account, she asked her friend Charlotte to delete photos of her on SM, she deleted all her text messages with CW... MOO

 

[esayer]

So is no one gonna mention Sandy's 'private part cancer' accusation, on page 1264?

 

[The Farm]

PDF page 520, Discovery page 587

SHANANN made between $65,000 - $70,000 a year with Thrive.
SHANANN had approximately 200 people who are signed up under her.

Ok so this.
Shannan made between 65k-70k.
CW I thought it said in the docs was at about the same or maybe a little more.

Believe it said mortgage 2800.00 a month which is crazy but still when you add up all your insurances, taxes and just basic living needs such as food etc. it adds up fast. I will never understand why so many people get so in over their heads financially
We also have no idea because I do not remember reading in the docs possible credit card balances and all that. Two kids and another on the way. And it was his idea for the baby to maybe save the marriage??? Crazy. Nuts!!!!
If that were my situation I would feel like I was in a pressure cooker of stress but I am of a different generation also. I just don't get it. Why want more when you can not pay for what you have?

 

[celticthyme]

HOW did CW do his "damndest" to make it work?

By cheating on SW with his co-worker?

By ignoring her pleas to communicate?

By refusing to go to couples' therapy? (Until the very end, when he knew it was too late and he wouldn't have to.)

By lying to SW about where he was spending his money?

And, again, if finances were so tight and stressful to him then why was he taking his mistress to expensive meals and on weekend getaways? Spending his money on male companionship? (If the male AP is to be believed.)

And do we have actual proof that SW wasn't bringing in any income? According to the document dump, she was bringing in as much money as CW was with her job.

Look, MLMs aren't my thing. I don't generally buy products from people who sell direct sale items and I don't want to become involved in that kind of thing myself. And it is true that MOST people do not make money at them. But some people DO make actual money at them. Is there ANY proof that SW did not? Can someone direct me to bank statements or LE statements or anything official that shows that SW was not bringing in income?

I welcome a discussion about how this seemingly fell apart, but the problem is that almost every time someone gives it a shot, it's always a list of reasons why CW was "stressed", with the majority of those reasons circling around SW. That makes the convo difficult.

Again, I'm not making excuses for CW. From the mountains of FB and other media sights Shanann shared her thoughts about her work and her life. CW appeared to take an active and happy role in the family from her videos. BUT, none of us can really know what goes on behind closed doors, (my life is living proof of that, having been married to an abusive physician.) I think that by the time summer came around, that marriage was in big trouble. SW leaving for several weeks, going half way across the country speaks volumes to that. My heart aches for what she must have been going through. We have expectations that making a life with the person we love, will bring joy and fulfillment. As dreams become shattered, mental anguish and chaos take over. Trying to sort out and deal with all of these emotions takes a huge toll. And there are children in the middle of all of this. As time went on, in the summer, I think CW felt a sense of freedom from his responsibilities, and I think SW was sensing that her world was falling apart. All of this is a lot of speculation on my part.

 

[RachB65]

Yes it's truly a kick to the gut and would have been an absolute awakening jolt to her psyche. I think that's probably why she was vomiting all night, not because of what she ate or sudden onset of pregnancy sickness.

She exclaimed 'I don't know him', just think about those words, that was her truth - her friend was so alarmed by that she asked 'what do you mean?' Her friend was momentarily scared and Shanann was terrified. That was THE moment she should have paid attention. She saw it, her body had a physical reaction to it, he showed her that he was not at all the man she thought she knew. Appropriate compassion and guilt and empathy for her was absent and in its place was brutal indifference and utterly cold heartless abandonment. He showed her he was dangerous to her emotional well-being. It's a step up for her to think she was in physical danger, but someone who can cast you adrift just like that doesn't deserve the chance to show you whether they are capable of physically harming you. He had already stuck the knife in her heart, the center that joined them.

It's natural IMO to want to push away such world shattering knowledge, I call it higher wisdom, and to want so badly to get back to the safety of the old world one inhabited, but if only she had done what she said she felt like doing - stayed in NC. I think there is a valuable lesson in this. Not a lesson in avoiding a murdering sociopath but in understanding when we are working against our higher wisdom. She saw the old Chris was just an illusion and while it was painful and shocking to accept that reality she also was terrified by what she had seen and she begged him to make her feel safe. That is the will kicking back against or interfering with the body's truth.

BBM,
But not snipping one word because YES. This whole post is excellent.
As to the bolded part I would put it as the ego and conscious mind ignoring and/or rationalizing away gut intuition.

 

[SuziQ]

It's a fact in discovery that she had "hours of searching Shan'ann Watts" prior to her going missing, and after as well. But she flat out said in that interview that when she and CW first started their relationship, she "didn't know his wife's name". Fact of the matter is no, she is not a killer and did not have any foresight into this vicious crime, but she IS in fact a liar. I think she had no idea whatsoever that his sentencing meant that anything further would come of this. She certainly did not anticipate the discovery dump that would conflict with several of the things she said to the Denver Post.

ITA. She played herself off to be a better person than she really was.

 

[bonjoviblonde]

I also thought it was said earlier that she was making good money with her business.
Every one keeps saying CW is a narcissist so it would more likely be him wanting to 'keep up with the Jones' and put out a veneer of wealth and status. He is smiling and hugging her to him in all those pictures from her Thrive trips.

We definitely know that Chris cared a LOT about what other people thought of him so I think he's just as guilty of wanting to "keep up with the Joneses". THEY did seem to maybe live beyond their means and yes THEY did file bankruptcy at one point but the key word is THEY. It's pretty common nowdays, right or wrong, for couples to live beyond their means.

 

[Gingerbread7]

Hello Everyone. A couple of months ago, I realized that Shannon, Nico, Bella and CeCe had been killed for another woman and I just couldn’t post anymore. I stepped away until last week. I am still new but was wondering about this:

While Shannon was at the business conference in AZ, CW got another babysitter because he had won raffle tickets through work for a Rockies game. Shannon was actively worried about problems in her marriage and trying to give CHRIS SPACE, but (this is just me) I would have wanted pictures from the game (as a wife wondering what was going on in my marriage). He would not have been able to produce any pictures or even ticket stubs from the game. He lied about something he was going to get called out on, if he wasn’t already. So at that time, he didn’t either care she found out, or he knew he was going to kill her and the girls, while he was on the date with NK.

 

[AbbyG]

A

Again, I'm not making excuses for CW. From the mountains of FB and other media sights Shanann shared her thoughts about her work and her life. CW appeared to take an active and happy role in the family from her videos. BUT, none of us can really know what goes on behind closed doors, (my life is living proof of that, having been married to an abusive physician.) I think that by the time summer came around, that marriage was in big trouble. SW leaving for several weeks, going half way across the country speaks volumes to that. My heart aches for what she must have been going through. We have expectations that making a life with the person we love, will bring joy and fulfillment. As dreams become shattered, mental anguish and chaos take over. Trying to sort out and deal with all of these emotions takes a huge toll. And there are children in the middle of all of this. As time went on, in the summer, I think CW felt a sense of freedom from his responsibilities, and I think SW was sensing that her world was falling apart. All of this is a lot of speculation on my part.

I will find the place where I read her income was 60 to 80 grand, commensurate with his. And I am sure it would have gone up. His income keep going down because he is such a loser. She is the one who bought a house by herself and didn't seem to run into financial trouble until she started up with spoiled lazy loser CW.

 

[PommyMommy]

PDF page 520, Discovery page 587

SHANANN made between $65,000 - $70,000 a year.​

 

[SuziQ]

So is no one gonna mention Sandy's 'private part cancer' accusation, on page 1264?

what the? Oh thanks. Until now, I was doing pretty good at avoiding reading a 2000 page doc dump. Anyone have a link?

 

[mtnlites]

Again, I'm not making excuses for CW. From the mountains of FB and other media sights Shanann shared her thoughts about her work and her life. CW appeared to take an active and happy role in the family from her videos. BUT, none of us can really know what goes on behind closed doors, (my life is living proof of that, having been married to an abusive physician.) I think that by the time summer came around, that marriage was in big trouble. SW leaving for several weeks, going half way across the country speaks volumes to that. My heart aches for what she must have been going through. We have expectations that making a life with the person we love, will bring joy and fulfillment. As dreams become shattered, mental anguish and chaos take over. Trying to sort out and deal with all of these emotions takes a huge toll. And there are children in the middle of all of this. As time went on, in the summer, I think CW felt a sense of freedom from his responsibilities, and I think SW was sensing that her world was falling apart. All of this is a lot of speculation on my part.

As others have stated, SW's income was comparable to his and perhaps a little more.

Eta: @PommyMommy has posted the page number.

SW earned more than $60,000 in a year.

 

[tmar]

In her interviews, she never appears to tell LE that he told her his divorce was finalised. It was only ever that he was going through a separation. Even when he went to NC for a week, she said it was so he could work on his marriage. He reportedly told her after that week that Shanann was adamant she did not want to make it work.

Seems like the "divorced finalised" bit only came out for the media interviews. MOO

We are receiving different versions about NK: through LE, her media reports, her phone and internet records etc.
Pretty soon, all will become clear.
Wonder who this 'house guest' Jim may turn out to be, now that he doesn't have a surname.