GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #60

[gitana1]

I suppose you are right. for whatever reason , I wish we knew the order in which he killed them. I keep wondering if somewhere he slipped and revealed a clue. It doesn't matter i suppose, just trying to wrap my head around when he solidified the plan, and how he went about executing the plan. we will probably never know

The only thing related to that which I feel certain of at this point is that he coldly and methodically planned this. He saw no other way out in which he could remain a "good guy", keep his new and exciting relationship and not fall into financial ruin again.

What makes me think he didn't kill the kids first is that he wouldn't want to do anything that could cause Shanann to discover the plan and fight, because I don't think he would risk Shanann coming home and discovering the kids are dead.

I do not think he purposefully wanted her to know her kids were dead. I think he just wanted them all gone.

What makes me think he might've killed them first is texting her pictures of them from earlier in the day when she asked for pictures of them in bed. If he killed them maybe they looked stiff to him. Or he feared they might.

We will never know.

 

[Seattle1]

I don't believe there are detailed text messages between CW & NK (other than mentioning that pictures were being sent and moved to the Secret Calculator app). I don't recall seeing any actual text content, unlike the texts between SW and CW. The detailed interactions/timeline are contained in the last pages of the document. Maybe about 20 pages or so? You could start there and backtrack.

By her own admission, NK deleted all of her texts/communication with CW before contacting LE. It's believed CW did the same except for what was recovered from secret calculator. Discovery only included NK's relevant search history, and relevant texts to her friend Charlotte.

 

[simplymadness]

Has it been discussed that he was seen stopping by his work truck in the Lexus while under surveillance? I can't find the discovery page at the moment, but he was observed moving what appeared to be children's itens and placing said items into a bag.

Later, he was allowed to give his "gym bag" to his father.

Could that bag contain the blankets and stuffed animals?

 

[IAMWAN]

The only thing related to that which I feel certain of at this point is that he coldly and methodically planned this. He saw no other way out in which he could remain a "good guy", keep his new and exciting relationship and not fall into financial ruin again.

What makes me think he didn't kill the kids first is that he wouldn't want to do anything that could cause Shanann to discover the plan and fight, because I don't think he would risk Shanann coming home and discovering the kids are dead.

I do not think he purposefully wanted her to know her kids were dead. I think he just wanted them all gone.

What makes me think he might've killed her first is texting her pictures of them from earlier in the day when she asked for pictures of them in bed. If he killed them maybe they looked stiff to him. Or he feared they might.

We will never know.

I keep going back and forth on whether or not I think he killed the kids first. It was mentioned multiple times in the doc dump that the girls were light sleepers and, as a mom of light sleepers, I reconsidered my original position that there's no way she wouldn't have peeked in on them when she got home. Maybe she settled for peeking at the monitor, in which case she wouldn't have really been able to tell if something was wrong depending on how he had positioned them. It's the only way that I could see her going down without a fight if they were, indeed, killed first. She just didn't know and trusted that they were safely tucked in and asleep for the night.

 

[Layla123]

@gitana1 I have one more question (at the moment) if you please. Now that it’s over, are the Defense Attorneys permitted to speak freely about the case? To reveal private conversations they had with CW? Including the decision making processes that led to the Plea Deal? What CW said? If he ever actually confessed? If he gave a detailed description of everything that happened as it went down?

 

[Seattle1]

I read it that they were still 3 months behind on the mortgage? And that previously they had taken money out of his retirement to catch the mortgage up? Did I read it wrong?

Also I think it's hard to say that SW really made that much money. There is no proof of that. IMO I don't think they would have been struggling so much financially if she was making that amount of money. I am always suspicious of anyone in an MLM saying they make that much. Nothing against SW! She was a really hard worker.

We really don't know if mortgage payment was in arrears, or if they actually took a loan from 401k. CW cited this info during his interview, and we know he lied constantly. MOO

 

[BingoBongo]

Could have been a lie. Trying to get sympathy and attention from Shanann. I don't know if we're going to be able to believe anything that came from his mouth, at any time.

I was married to one, and many years later, engaged to another. They lie about EVERYTHING. Most of their lies are self-serving. 90% of their history that they each shared with me was distorted enough to be lies. Don't believe anything they say.

 

[KathrynL]

I don't believe there are detailed text messages between CW & NK (other than mentioning that pictures were being sent and moved to the Secret Calculator app). I don't recall seeing any actual text content, unlike the texts between SW and CW. The detailed interactions/timeline are contained in the last pages of the document. Maybe about 20 pages or so? You could start there and backtrack.

Starts on PDF pg 1887, Discovery pg 2082.

 

[PommyMommy]

I am very interested in watching his demeanor.

You know it's quite bizarre. I thought initially (and wrongly predicted a quick confession as a result), that he might have been feeling slight guilt when he spelled and said his daughters' names. He had a hard swallow.

Was that slight guilt? Can sociopaths or psychopaths feel any measure of guilt or empathy or love at times?

I actually think they might be able to in a very limited or muted manner. For that reason, some serial killers refuse to ever admit killing particular victims even though they admit to many others. And those are victims whose faces they often cover.

Sometimes monster predators will keep certain victims alive and can't bring themselves to kill them. Like Shawn Hornbeck's predator. And Shasta Groene's.

I note that Christian Longo described in interviews to the ex NY times writer how he got so upset seeing his child hurting herself. Or being ill. (I can't recall which). Yet he was able to strangle one child and drop two into freezing water with weights on their legs, while alive.

It's confusing. It's contradictory.

I think it's never that black and white. There are vestiges of something human but it's not quite right. Not quite normal.

I think the reason CW could fool so many for so long is he wasn't a predator and didn't have anger management issues. He had a hard time being in intimate relationships that were real- like true friendships. Deep romantic relationships. He may have lasted with SW because she didn't question his identity too deeply. She was a strong enough personality for both of them. She didn't demand that he be a totally reciprocal partner. Maybe she was satisfied with being able to run the show and delegate where many others might resent never having their partner make decisions or take responsibility. But for a shadow person like CW this might have worked for awhile.

Regardless, I don't think he had on-going urges to hurt or kill anyone so no one felt that hair-raising feeling when he stared at them. Because he wasn't predatory.

He became dangerous when he became obsessed with someone new and with being able to escape his fake life.

Will he show any emotion? Will it be fake as the investigator stated "He tried to squeeze out a tear."?

This man suffocated his kids and dumped them and yet he was able to serenely watch videos of them alive and playing, right after. That takes a level of detachment and apathy and disconnection that doesn't seem human to me, unless the person is completely psychotic and slapping feces on themselves. And there are zero signs of psychosis in this guy.

So does he have any vestiges of humanity?

I don't know if we will be able to figure it out but every time we watch these interrogations or interviews of these monsters, our minds file it away and warn us when the next one pops up.

Memories and data banks of info that, when combined with basic common sense, allow most to filter through the noise of gossip and personal dislike and attraction and bias and bizarre red herrings, in order to be able to instantly recognize the next monster who pops up on tv expressing "concern" about his missing family or "despair" about loved ones who somehow suddenly turned up dead.

I sensed shame. No guilt. No remorse. JMO.

 

[Deleted member 182072]

Was it ascertained wether that Trent bolt man was a fraud ? I’m sorry but reading the documents about him made me pmsl lol. It sounded so far fetched !

I don't think we'll ever know for certain, but I personally think TB was sincere.
Contrary to reports, he wasn't paid for his interview with HLN.
He has shied away from the publicity, even after the sentencing and hasn't retracted anything he said.
His Twitter account now has this message: "And it all starts again, this whole thing it a sh*t show", so he's not looking for attention from all of this.

From pdf page 659, dis page 748:

SA CODER and I interviewed BOLTE inside a private, recorded interview room at the sheriff’s office. Please review SA CODER’s report for full details on the interview with BOLTE. During the interview, BOLTE indicated he had messages from CHRIS during the time they had known each other. I took screenshots of the messages, which are attached to this report.
​

I'm unable to see the discovery attachment of the text screenshots from TB.
Has anyone else been able to access those?

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Thank you for writing this, this is brilliant. So brilliant, it needs to be published in a magazine, somewhere. You just summed it all up about as good as it’s going to get summed up.

I couldn't agree more. Also, for some odd reason CW's and SW's relationship reminded me of Diane and Danny Schuler.

 

[Thepoet]

I read it that they were still 3 months behind on the mortgage? And that previously they had taken money out of his retirement to catch the mortgage up? Did I read it wrong?

Also I think it's hard to say that SW really made that much money. There is no proof of that. IMO I don't think they would have been struggling so much financially if she was making that amount of money. I am always suspicious of anyone in an MLM saying they make that much. Nothing against SW! She was a really hard worker.

I have known a handful of people that were involved in MLM, everything from vacuum cleaners to timeshare to Amway. Most didn't do well and drifted away. Some did fairly well and some excelled. I would have to say it depended a lot on personality (outgoing and vivacious) and dedication. I have no problem with believing SW did very well (all evidence says she did!). She had a bright, sparkling personality and a strong drive. I have found that people often get out of their jobs what they put in to their jobs. I have also known many people who made less than what they claimed, and spent. It's more about people and their behavior, than jobs. As far as finances, I would need to see a detailed financial statement and then I would temper that with their ages and how people behave at that age.

 

[Seattle1]

You’re right, it’s over. I keep asking myself why I keep checking back here, and I guess it’s because I still want to know the reason, why? I’m afraid some new information will come out, and I’ll miss it. It would be great if WS had an Email Alert system, if any new information on the case comes out, you get an automatic email!

There is a feature for "watched threads" that you can select to alert you of new posts.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

YAY, thank you! I was going to mention something like that as well as the following which I typed up while the previous thread was closed:

Hi all,

I haven't chimed in but I've been clinging to every detail since this case broke. Two of my children are Bella and Cece's ages, and I can't imagine bringing any harm to them or feeling such resentment toward them that CW did. I'm horrified and disgusted and so, so sad that none of this had to happen. CW wanted his freedom and how much freedom did he really get? He was under scrutiny from day 1...and was arrested day 3? Way to go CW. You showed the whole world how much of a monster you are, your family paid the ultimate price, and your "reward" to yourself is LWOP.

I wonder if we could make a post to pin at the top of the thread to confirm indisputable aspects of the case. It's repetitive when we have a topic that keeps cycling and it distracts from spurring on productive conversations. It could also help newcomers to the discussion be brought up to speed.

Such as...

• Shanann made $65,000 - $70,000 as a Le-Vel promoter, about equal to what CW made. She had 200 people downline from her. The Lexus was paid for through a car allowance from Le-Vel.
• Lawsuit regarding HOA is about assessment, not annual dues.
• $10,000 was taken out of CW's 401K, which could only have been done with CW's approval. Shanann used to catch up on three months' worth of mortgage payments. Therefore they were current on their mortgage but CW said the next payment was due August 16 and they had just .XX in checking.
• The six week trip to NC was PLANNED. They went every year. It was not an indication of marriage difficulties. It was simply so that SW, BW and CW could spend time with the families and for SW to grow her business. SW would not be able to travel later on because of her pregnancy.
• CW is 5'8". He told LE he weighed 185 lbs. His driver's license stated 225 lbs.
• The handwritten letter was dated 8/6/18. It was in a sealed envelope which was in CW's mother's possession. It was supposedly given to CW's defense team and subsequently destroyed. LE did not hear anything about this letter until after sentencing.
• Shanann had paper bags on her hands placed there by LE to preserve evidence.
• CW is currently at Denver Reception and Diagnostic Center. His inmate number is 182906.
• Many people are upset at NK because she willingly held a public interview which later directly contradicted facts found in discovery. (okay this one is a little subjective, but it would help to clarify that most aren't shaming her or holding her culpable for the murders and are just trying to hold her accountable with her discrepancies)
• NK was a contract employee. Anadarko terminated her contract, and her employer in turn fired her.
• Colorado is a right to hire state.

Perhaps with reference to the discovery with PDF page number and discovery page number? Sorry I don't have any on mine. I didn't think to take notes like @PommyMommy, @Tortoise and other wonderful members here!

Apologies if this has already been discussed or is redundant with notes other members are working on.

Thanks - @PiertotumLocomotor
I added the PDF/Discovery pages and also checking account dollar amounts below.

• Shanann made $65,000 - $70,000 as a Le-Vel promoter, about equal to what CW made. She had 200 people downline from her. The Lexus was paid for through a car allowance from Le-Vel. (PDF page 520, Discovery page 587)

• Lawsuit regarding HOA is about assessment, not annual dues.

• $10,000 was taken out of CW's 401K, which could only have been done with CW's approval. Shanann used to catch up on three months' worth of mortgage payments. Therefore they were current on their mortgage but CW said the next payment was due August 16 and they had $2000.00 in his checking account and approximately $1500.00 in their USAA checking account. (PDF page 529, Discovery page 596)

• The six week trip to NC was PLANNED. They went every year. It was not an indication of marriage difficulties. It was simply so that SW, BW and CW could spend time with the families and for SW to grow her business. SW would not be able to travel later on because of her pregnancy.

• CW is 5'8". He told LE he weighed 185 lbs. His driver's license stated 225 lbs.

• The handwritten letter was dated 8/6/18. It was in a sealed envelope which was in CW's mother's possession. It was supposedly given to CW's defense team and subsequently destroyed. LE did not hear anything about this letter until after sentencing.

• Shanann had paper bags on her hands placed there by LE to preserve evidence. (PDF page 891, Discovery page 1002)

• CW is currently at Denver Reception and Diagnostic Center. His inmate number is 182906.

• Many people are upset at NK because she willingly held a public interview which later directly contradicted facts found in discovery. (okay this one is a little subjective, but it would help to clarify that most aren't shaming her or holding her culpable for the murders and are just trying to hold her accountable with her discrepancies)

• NK was a contract employee. Anadarko terminated her contract, and her employer in turn fired her. (PDF page 618, Discovery page 697)

• Colorado is a right to hire state.

 

[PommyMommy]

Has it been discussed that he was seen stopping by his work truck in the Lexus while under surveillance? I can't find the discovery page at the moment, but he was observed moving what appeared to be children's itens and placing said items into a bag.

Later, he was allowed to give his "gym bag" to his father.

Could that bag contain the blankets and stuffed animals?

Pg 56 (Discovery pg 101) – Officer Paul Scarlett’s surveillance: 8/14 @ 1457 hrs Garage door of 2825 Steeple Rock Dr. Can see white Lexus in the garage. Observed white male short dark hair with beard gray shirt and black shorts walk from the front passenger-side to the rear of the white Lexus (unknown license plate) open the back hatch and place what appeared to be a square bag with pink flowers with white behind the flowers, into the back of the SUV. Then proceeded to grab a cloth like item, already in the back of the SUV and place it into the bag. The male then closed the hatch and walk back to the right side (passenger side) of the SUV out of sight then the garage door closed. Did not see license plate.

 

[gitana1]

You make some.many good points. And yes, I agree that it is over simplifying to think that a narcissist or even a sociopath NEVER feels one bit of emotion or guilt and remorse. I've known a few and they have their occasional weak or.tender moments. it makes sense that if one sees their child or even pet as an extension of themselves , that there will be at least a bit of " caring" for lack of a better word that is similar to their twisted self-care.
I was once well acquainted ( through a family relationship) with a man who was cruel and abusive towards women and the women's pets. I despised everything about him . ( still.do) So imagine my shock when I was in the same.room.as him one evening watching a movie ( ufghh long story) and during a.particularly emotional part of the.movie glanced over to.see tears streaming down his face. For a.moment I almost had a sympathetic view of him, but then I reminded myself of the tragedy that put us in the same.room , and came to my senses.
But I've always remembered that brief moment of.emotion and believed that even dangerous people can have a flash of something human.
I suspect not every moment of CW life was ruled by evil, but when something came along that he really really wanted , he was willing to push back any human emotion and move.forward to obtain what he wanted most. It is sickening yet fascinating to.me. What did he tell himself in order to.justify his actions, I wonder?

Exactly. And caveat: I don't know if he's a sociopath or psychopath. Probably a narcissist.

A particularly intelligent poster though, early on, challenged my notion that he probably was one of those things. She pointed out how he doesn't fit the criteria really for NPD or APD.

I wish we could've explored that more and other contradictions like that which could've pointed away from CW as a stone cold killer, rather than devolving into the baseless, "open-minded" hate-fest against poor Shanann, that I feel the debate about his possible innocence, became.

Because the contradictions are interesting. The questions about what a murderer of his own kids looks like or can look like, and how he did or didn't match, could've been productive and intellectually-driven.

 

[mrjitty]

* From thread 59*

I want us all to agree this is true ( Discovery page 1925/1740 of 1960) But everyone here is saying it didn’t happen.

"A two-day investigation revealed Watts was involved in an affair with Nicole Kissinger which he had denied in previous interviews. The affair was only discovered after Kessinger contacted your affiant stating she had information regarding this investigation. In an interview with investigators (08/15/18) Kissinger disclosed she had been romantically involved with Watts and the relationship began around June of 2018.“

Hi Layla

Thanks for digging this out. I think this aspect is no longer up for discussion.

NK contacted the police first, even if their investigations had already revealed her as a lead.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Exactly. And caveat: I don't know if he's a sociopath or psychopath. Probably a narcissist.

A particularly intelligent poster though, early on, challenged my notion that he probably was one of those things. She pointed out how he doesn't fit the criteria really for NPD or APD.

I wish we could've explored that more and other contradictions like that which could've pointed away from CW as a stone cold killer, rather than devolving into the baseless, "open-minded" hate-fest against poor Shanann, that I feel the debate about his possible innocence, became.

Because the contradictions are interesting. The questions about what a murderer of his own kids looks like or can look like, and how he did or didn't match, could've been productive and intellectually-based.

He seems to look at things as black and white with no in between....very simple minded.
jmo

 

[Tortoise]

rsbm

Anyway, the sticking point for me is SW trying to purchase a hair product around 2:30am and cc getting declined( I remember reading somewhere in the doc), which kinda makes me believe that all of them were alive at that time. IMO, that would have trigerred the conversation. I am hoping all of these dots will be connected someday atleast for the families and friends.

I think the cadaver dogs would have given very hard commands or whatever it's called (alerts?) if any of them were dead and their bodies stored for hours in the house. No amount of cleaning would have removed the scent of three cadavers for that long a period. I tend to think he killed them around the time activity was recorded on the main floor which would be him moving about; 4:23am or just before.

MOO.

 

[TrifleMars]

I kinda believe it. It would explain a lot of things. If CW was not shown love and affection from a young age; it explains so many things. Like him not wanting his mom to come. Him never expressing emotion, being emotionally shut down, faking his feelings. I am always fascinated by the childhood of murderers. Wish we knew more.

I remember watching that video SW made when the kids were sick. She says they just got back from the hospital. She's in the kitchen filming and CW walks in to the back of the kitchen holding Celeste. Looks like he is getting her medications. You can see the anger pouring off him when he glances at SW filming. Then you see him hide it. That video has always stuck with me.

Do you think you could link that video? TIA