Coincidences

Me too but this would mean that there are more people knowing something.Who answered the door when the officer arrived?S.Stine?Did FW see/do something and called 911 but then changed his mind and hung up?


What other reason could there have been for the 911 call other than to try to estimate how long it would take for the cops to arrive and therefore for someone to escape??

Was there a plot to do something that day that was foiled by one of the other guests overhearing or coming in at the wrong time?

Did one of the children become alarmed by someone's actions and try to call the cops but was stopped (threatened)? Could it have been JBR herself?
 
What other reason could there have been for the 911 call other than to try to estimate how long it would take for the cops to arrive and therefore for someone to escape??

Was there a plot to do something that day that was foiled by one of the other guests overhearing or coming in at the wrong time?

Did one of the children become alarmed by someone's actions and try to call the cops but was stopped (threatened)? Could it have been JBR herself?

I recall that someone at the party explained the 911 call by saying that they meant to dial 411. What puzzles me is that incident where JB was crying and what she said ("I don't feel pretty"). Something had to cause that. She looked VERY pretty that day, in her velvet dress and pretty hairdo.
 
I recall that someone at the party explained the 911 call by saying that they meant to dial 411. What puzzles me is that incident where JB was crying and what she said ("I don't feel pretty"). Something had to cause that. She looked VERY pretty that day, in her velvet dress and pretty hairdo.

Hey DeeDee...I cannot remember who JB said this to...do you remember? Just wondered if this was something that she "actually" said...or another rumor?
 
Why was JB killed on X-mas night,I don't think this is a coincidence.

I don't think so either. RDI usually quotes holiday stress but that doesn't wash, as by Christmas night holiday stress is over--having been replaced by being tired. Certainly nobody's up all night eating pineapple and running up and down stairs.

Ready for a good night sleep after the previous long nights and all the food. Where did PR and JR get all that energy for everything that was supposed to have happened?
 
I recall that someone at the party explained the 911 call by saying that they meant to dial 411. What puzzles me is that incident where JB was crying and what she said ("I don't feel pretty"). Something had to cause that. She looked VERY pretty that day, in her velvet dress and pretty hairdo.

This and the doll incident(she doesn't look like me),makes you wonder what was going on with her.
 
I don't think so either. RDI usually quotes holiday stress but that doesn't wash, as by Christmas night holiday stress is over--having been replaced by being tired.

That's true. But then, being tired brings on stress of its own, doesn't it? And even then, their Christmas wasn't really over yet, was it? There was still everything left to do.

Certainly nobody's up all night eating pineapple and running up and down stairs.

"Nobody" doesn't have a kid with a busted head and a messed-up vagina, either.

Where did PR and JR get all that energy for everything that was supposed to have happened?

Where? Are you kidding? I don't know about angels, but fear gives men wings.
 
Hey DeeDee...I cannot remember who JB said this to...do you remember? Just wondered if this was something that she "actually" said...or another rumor?

She was said to be found crying on a staircase and when asked why, she said
"I don't feel pretty". Don't recall who she said it to. Maybe someone remembers.
 
That's true. But then, being tired brings on stress of its own, doesn't it? And even then, their Christmas wasn't really over yet, was it? There was still everything left to do.



"Nobody" doesn't have a kid with a busted head and a messed-up vagina, either.



Where? Are you kidding? I don't know about angels, but fear gives men wings.

Patsy still had PLENTY of holiday stress. She had to pack up two kids after an exhausting Christmas day and fly all day to meet JR's older kids in Charlevoix, a trip she really didn't want to make (it was JR's idea). Then, she had another trip immediately after that for a Disney Cruise and celebration of her own 40th birthday along the way. Plenty of stress.
 
She was said to be found crying on a staircase and when asked why, she said
"I don't feel pretty". Don't recall who she said it to. Maybe someone remembers.

DeeDee249,

Its from JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas.
Before the Christmas break, her mother arranged to have JonBenét perform as a holiday treat for her classmates, and in pageant finery she sang and danced all day while class after class came through to watch. She went home exhausted. Her lesson in school that day was that perfection and celebrity carried a price. On December 17 she picked up still another crown, Colorado's Little Miss Christmas.

Six days later, during a party at her parents' home, a family friend came across a JonBenét who was seldom seen. The child was immaculate in a holiday frock, and her platinum blond hair was done perfectly, but she sat alone on a staircase in the butler's kitchen, crying softly. The friend sat beside her.

"What's wrong, honey?"

Little Miss Christmas sobbed, "I don't feel pretty."

.
 
Now here's something interesting.

"48 Hours has learned that JonBenet may have been targeted for murder long before she took the stage, possibly at a local dance studio called Dance West, where she took lessons.

"To someone with that, you know, kind of a twisted mind, she may have looked like a really good target," says former Denver private investigator Pete Peterson. Less than a year after the murder of JonBenet, he was hired to work on another case in Boulder that had strange parallels to the Ramsey case.

"There's a Dance West school where the victim of the assault in our case, the one that we investigated, and the Ramsey girl, both attended," says Peterson, who now believes Jon Benet was first targeted at that dance studio because of what happened to his client, just nine months after JonBenet was murdered. He also collected cigarette butts found outside Amy's house, and discovered that the "same brands were found in the Ramseys' alley."

"I expected it to be a serene, quiet, safe area," says Peterson of the Boulder neighborhoods. "It's fairly serene and quiet, but you find that there's a real undercurrent of activity at night that would give me pause for concern if I lived here."

Peterson, however, is a private detective with no police authority. He's been censured by a judge in the past for how he's gathered evidence. And in this case, he's planning to hand over all of his materials to the Boulder DA. He hopes they will take his theory seriously.

In his heart, does he think these two cases are connected? "I think that there's a really good likelihood, that's what we're pursuing," says Peterson. "We're pursuing that angle still."

Meanwhile, Boulder DA investigators are continuing to pursue their own leads.

Like JonBenet, she took lessons at Dance West. And like JonBenet, another girl, who is identified as "Amy," was attacked and sexually assaulted at night in her own bedroom on Sept. 14, 1997.

That night, Amy's father was out of town. After catching a movie, Amy and her mother returned home late. What they didn't know when they entered the house was that there was already an intruder inside.

Amy's father, who asked that his identity be obscured, agreed to talk about what happened that night: "My feeling is he got into the house while they were out and hid inside the house, so he would have been in there for perhaps four to six hours, hiding."

Before going to bed, Amy's mother turned on the burglar alarm. Around midnight, Amy woke up to find a man standing over her bed, his hand over her mouth. "She remembered the intruder addressing her by her name," says Peterson. "He said, 'I know who you are.' He repeated those things a few times, apparently. 'I'll knock you out. Shut up.'"

Peterson says Amy's mother heard whispering, and proceeded through the doorway, and saw a person, who just brushed her aside and quickly made his escape by jumping out a second-floor window.

"He was like a ghost," recalls Amy's father. "We couldn't figure out where he came from, or where he went."

By the time the Boulder police arrived, the man was long gone. Because the intruder had gotten in and out of the house so easily, Amy's father began to think this wasn't the first time he had done something like this.

"The first thing that occurred to us was that it was the parallel to the Ramsey case because it was exactly the same situation," says Amy's father, who even told the Boulder police about the Dance West studio connection to the Ramsey case. "I think someone, somewhere, drew a bead on her. Obviously had us under surveillance that we were not aware of."

The studio has since gone out of business and been torn down, but photos show that there was a balcony overlooking the dance floor where parents and anyone else could come in and watch the children.

But Amy's dad says that when he told the police detectives about the information he had, "they were completely uninterested in it."

"They were very frustrated," says Peterson. "It was difficult to get them to do anything much less, you know, beyond taking a report."

But not only did the Boulder police dismiss any link to the Ramsey case, they didn't even bother to use the mother's eyewitness description to make a composite sketch. That's when Amy's family hired Peterson. What he has uncovered in his investigation may not only solve Amy's case, but also help lead to the capture of JonBenet's killer.

"This person is someone with a huge ego, someone who views himself as bold," says Peterson, who believes there are too many parallels between Amy's case and JonBenet's murder.

Both JonBenet and Amy were sexually assaulted by an intruder at night in their homes -- within nine months of each other. Fiber evidence shows that JonBenet's attacker may have been wearing black, as was the man who attacked Amy. And there's the fact that both girls took lessons at the Dance West studio.

But Boulder police never found any connections to the murder of JonBenet.Yet, Peterson found something very disturbing. As he collected evidence in and around the house, and did background checks on people who worked in the neighborhood, he found a group of individuals with criminal histories, who roamed the neighborhood at night.

He made surveillance videotapes, and showed 48 Hours vehicles that he believes were used by a roving band of criminals. "We did tail them at one point, within two blocks from the Ramsey house," says Peterson, who watched the neighborhood for weeks.

In his possession, he had a map that was discarded by the group under surveillance. "I think it's a blueprint for burglary, at least," says Peterson.

48 Hours has discovered that, of Colorado's most dangerous sex offenders, one in eight also has prior convictions for burglary or robbery. "They burglarize and sexually assault if the opportunity presents itself," says Peterson.

And in Amy's neighborhood, that opportunity seemed to present itself quite often. Peterson says there were 19 burglaries, breaking and entering, or trespassing reports in a two-month period. He did background checks on his suspects in Amy's case, and discovered that some of them had at one time worked at the Ramsey home.

"Two or three people we were looking at had associations with both neighborhoods," says Peterson, who went so far as to collect the sample of one man's handwriting. "We talked with him several times. ...We had him write something."

Peterson then had an expert compare that handwriting to the Ramsey ransom note. He claims he found distinct similarities were found, but "handwriting analysis is kind of an art. It's pretty subjective."
 
Now here's something interesting.

"48 Hours has learned that JonBenet may have been targeted for murder long before she took the stage, possibly at a local dance studio called Dance West, where she took lessons.

"To someone with that, you know, kind of a twisted mind, she may have looked like a really good target," says former Denver private investigator Pete Peterson. Less than a year after the murder of JonBenet, he was hired to work on another case in Boulder that had strange parallels to the Ramsey case.

"There's a Dance West school where the victim of the assault in our case, the one that we investigated, and the Ramsey girl, both attended," says Peterson, who now believes Jon Benet was first targeted at that dance studio because of what happened to his client, just nine months after JonBenet was murdered. He also collected cigarette butts found outside Amy's house, and discovered that the "same brands were found in the Ramseys' alley."

"I expected it to be a serene, quiet, safe area," says Peterson of the Boulder neighborhoods. "It's fairly serene and quiet, but you find that there's a real undercurrent of activity at night that would give me pause for concern if I lived here."

Peterson, however, is a private detective with no police authority. He's been censured by a judge in the past for how he's gathered evidence. And in this case, he's planning to hand over all of his materials to the Boulder DA. He hopes they will take his theory seriously.

In his heart, does he think these two cases are connected? "I think that there's a really good likelihood, that's what we're pursuing," says Peterson. "We're pursuing that angle still."

Meanwhile, Boulder DA investigators are continuing to pursue their own leads.

Like JonBenet, she took lessons at Dance West. And like JonBenet, another girl, who is identified as "Amy," was attacked and sexually assaulted at night in her own bedroom on Sept. 14, 1997.

That night, Amy's father was out of town. After catching a movie, Amy and her mother returned home late. What they didn't know when they entered the house was that there was already an intruder inside.

Amy's father, who asked that his identity be obscured, agreed to talk about what happened that night: "My feeling is he got into the house while they were out and hid inside the house, so he would have been in there for perhaps four to six hours, hiding."

Before going to bed, Amy's mother turned on the burglar alarm. Around midnight, Amy woke up to find a man standing over her bed, his hand over her mouth. "She remembered the intruder addressing her by her name," says Peterson. "He said, 'I know who you are.' He repeated those things a few times, apparently. 'I'll knock you out. Shut up.'"

Peterson says Amy's mother heard whispering, and proceeded through the doorway, and saw a person, who just brushed her aside and quickly made his escape by jumping out a second-floor window.

"He was like a ghost," recalls Amy's father. "We couldn't figure out where he came from, or where he went."

By the time the Boulder police arrived, the man was long gone. Because the intruder had gotten in and out of the house so easily, Amy's father began to think this wasn't the first time he had done something like this.

"The first thing that occurred to us was that it was the parallel to the Ramsey case because it was exactly the same situation," says Amy's father, who even told the Boulder police about the Dance West studio connection to the Ramsey case. "I think someone, somewhere, drew a bead on her. Obviously had us under surveillance that we were not aware of."

The studio has since gone out of business and been torn down, but photos show that there was a balcony overlooking the dance floor where parents and anyone else could come in and watch the children.

But Amy's dad says that when he told the police detectives about the information he had, "they were completely uninterested in it."

"They were very frustrated," says Peterson. "It was difficult to get them to do anything much less, you know, beyond taking a report."

But not only did the Boulder police dismiss any link to the Ramsey case, they didn't even bother to use the mother's eyewitness description to make a composite sketch. That's when Amy's family hired Peterson. What he has uncovered in his investigation may not only solve Amy's case, but also help lead to the capture of JonBenet's killer.

"This person is someone with a huge ego, someone who views himself as bold," says Peterson, who believes there are too many parallels between Amy's case and JonBenet's murder.

Both JonBenet and Amy were sexually assaulted by an intruder at night in their homes -- within nine months of each other. Fiber evidence shows that JonBenet's attacker may have been wearing black, as was the man who attacked Amy. And there's the fact that both girls took lessons at the Dance West studio.

But Boulder police never found any connections to the murder of JonBenet.Yet, Peterson found something very disturbing. As he collected evidence in and around the house, and did background checks on people who worked in the neighborhood, he found a group of individuals with criminal histories, who roamed the neighborhood at night.

He made surveillance videotapes, and showed 48 Hours vehicles that he believes were used by a roving band of criminals. "We did tail them at one point, within two blocks from the Ramsey house," says Peterson, who watched the neighborhood for weeks.

In his possession, he had a map that was discarded by the group under surveillance. "I think it's a blueprint for burglary, at least," says Peterson.

48 Hours has discovered that, of Colorado's most dangerous sex offenders, one in eight also has prior convictions for burglary or robbery. "They burglarize and sexually assault if the opportunity presents itself," says Peterson.

And in Amy's neighborhood, that opportunity seemed to present itself quite often. Peterson says there were 19 burglaries, breaking and entering, or trespassing reports in a two-month period. He did background checks on his suspects in Amy's case, and discovered that some of them had at one time worked at the Ramsey home.

"Two or three people we were looking at had associations with both neighborhoods," says Peterson, who went so far as to collect the sample of one man's handwriting. "We talked with him several times. ...We had him write something."

Peterson then had an expert compare that handwriting to the Ramsey ransom note. He claims he found distinct similarities were found, but "handwriting analysis is kind of an art. It's pretty subjective."

Do you have a link for that? I'd like to read the whole thing.
 
wasn't it determined that this was a "copy cat" crime rather than a crime by the same person? I don't remember where I read that and if it was fact or opinion.
 
If this was the same person that murdered JB, he must have forgotten everything he knew, seeing as how he got caught early on in this home.
 
It is interesting that is for sure. I think Sophie was checking to see if they had DNA in this case. I never heard if she found anything on that.

It would be good to find out if Pete Peterson still has this information and if he had the cigarette butts DNA tested.
 
wasn't it determined that this was a "copy cat" crime rather than a crime by the same person? I don't remember where I read that and if it was fact or opinion.

Of course, when a crime gets the amount of attention that the killing of JBR did, then there is always a possibility that someone would 'copy cat' what was known at the time.

However, if we were to discover another link to someone we already suspect of involvement, this might become a coincidence that can't be ignored.

IF the Dance Studio (Dance West) is a link, then we can look at connections there. Apparently "Amy" (the second girl attacked) was abused in a similar way to JBR (digital and object). She was also very 'small' for her age (petite) so despite being older (14) she was still a 'child' by appearances.

So the link might be in the Dance instructors or their partners/family, other student's parents/siblings, helpers/employees at the studio.

There was also a performance in the mall. Perhaps someone helping or performing there (other acts?).

There might even be a link to the Amerikids Pageant on December 14 when she won the Santa Bear that appears to have disappeared following her death? Organisers, other contestants, helpers, etc.
 
I think the article points out some other very interesting "coincidences" involving Helgoth.
He claimed him and his partner would each make $60000 soon and the RN asked for $118000 ,he wanted to "crush someone's skull" and JB's skull was crushed,he committed suicide or was killed shortly after JB was murdered.
What if JR offered Helgoth and his partner $118000 to"off" someone and then did not follow through? Enraged about this Helgoth and the partner (who left the unknown DNA ) killed JB. JR knew exactly what was behind JB's murder and had Helgoth and possibly the unknown guy killed....that would explain the R's strange behavior.
The only thing is IMO a woman wrote the RN ( lengths,handwriting,content) and a woman redressed,cleaned and wrapped JB in a blanket.....so maybe PR was involved in the staging because she did not want JB to be found the way they left her?
 
I think the article points out some other very interesting "coincidences" involving Helgoth.
He claimed him and his partner would each make $60000 soon and the RN asked for $118000 ,he wanted to "crush someone's skull" and JB's skull was crushed,he committed suicide or was killed shortly after JB was murdered.
What if JR offered Helgoth and his partner $118000 to"off" someone and then did not follow through? Enraged about this Helgoth and the partner (who left the unknown DNA ) killed JB. JR knew exactly what was behind JB's murder and had Helgoth and possibly the unknown guy killed....that would explain the R's strange behavior.
The only thing is IMO a woman wrote the RN ( lengths,handwriting,content) and a woman redressed,cleaned and wrapped JB in a blanket.....so maybe PR was involved in the staging because she did not want JB to be found the way they left her?

This is very interesting and I wondered about such a scenario as well ( it doesn't necessarily have to be Helgoth but someone JR made angry).Of course if he asked that person or those people to do something illegal and then something didn't work out and they murdered his daughter (payback) then he's not telling.
I've said this before,if everything out there is true(evidence we've heard of) then maybe it's RDI(fibers,behaviour)+IDI(DNA) .But again,how do we know who did what,who killed her,who staged the scene and why.
 

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