Connecticut school district on lockdown after shooting report at a Newtown elemen #11

[Cherry]

But it appears that as a family early on they did nothing illegal. Also there are many children who learn to shoot a rifle or shotgun early in their teens for hunting reasons. Certainly not 4 years old. It does not appear that his mother did anything wrong by taking him to the shooting range to learn how to handle a gun. She had full control of his activities according to what the judge ruled. That left the influence of anyone else out of the picture as NL seemed to have gone along with isolating him from having any healthy relationships whatsoever. That made NL solely responsible with the help of a judge. From what we now know she was the last person who ever should have been in charge of her son. jmo

I'm off the fence over this as well. I was raised by Army; all the way. Became it; have lived it. I was raised on shotguns in the desert by the very best: Those the Marines and others trained. I was an excellent shot by 10 and at that tender age; I could spend days alone in our garage with a reloading machine filling them all for our next trip to the desert in CA; NV and AZ areas. We were raised on target shooting. However; as life went on....I went back n forth on the right to carry; the reasons to carry and gun ownership. We no longer NEED to hunt, anything. Not really. It's not a sport to me.
It's killing to me. I can't eat deer...I love to watch them in my yard.

I couldn't and won't shoot one; unless I had to survive. At least what I learned as a child I hv been able to put to good use throughout my life. And pass on that knowledge to others as well.
Shooting can lead to an Olympic Medal. Maybe somewhere in her mind she thought it was healthy for him. I cannot blame her. I blame the system.

I just cannot blame her after the fact. I know all too well; how much our society doesn't care. He obviously didn't get the help he needed from the Medical Community let alone at home....but I still can only blame him. I do not feel he was psychotic either; he well planned and executed his plant. Sadly. And he made all the lights as he drove there and then some.

He was not "insane" but maybe had he had real Dr's care; he may have been labeled as such. His behavior had to be so disturbing...and I am pretty sure she was very alone in her situ. What to do? As he grew older and refused to do anything?
Refused to ease into society? It wasn't her fault.

That said; I would have never allowed him to do what he was doing in her home, with the games, the violent content as well as the ownership of guns. If he was a normal child and well adjusted; that's a different story.

 

[x_files]

I also think that she thought his only "hobby" was the gun thing; so she went along with it; but I'm 100% positive in my gut as a mother she had to know this was wrong. It's sad. If only someone had noticed and actually helped her out; with him. If only.

ok, here's a twist. What if NL also had an undiagnosed mental disorder she passed onto AL. That's why she didn't see his abnormal behavior as abnormal? What if she was also obsessed with guns and filled his head with bizarre paranoid delusions?
What does her ex and friends say about her? Why wasn't she employed?
What if she was obsessed with mass shootings or spoke of conspiracy theories that pushed him over the edge?
I have zero proof just thinking out loud here.

 

[LambChop]

I felt that her isolation; and her trips alone out of town without him spoke volumes of what she was going thru; living with him. Trying to keep it together.....but failing and knowing it. He wasn't "right" and she knew.......she knew. No one was allowed inside the home from what I recall. No visitors. Now we know why. It's like she was hiding a huge secret. The mental health field to me is a huge failure and has been for far too long. We no longer take care of people; we only care if their insurance will last two weeks for a bed, after that; the families and friends and loved ones are pushed right out the doors of most hospitals. We do not care.

I believe that she couldn't get the help for him because of this situ with the Insurance Co's. Let alone; what our "mental health care" has become....to me it's based on nonsense. Like SSRIs.

Or she just never asked for help. NL was provided for very well by her ex-husband. I doubt the judge would have skimmed on the insurance coverage required of the father to cover AL and his brother. First you have to admit there is a problem. It's possible NL did not perceive her son as having any difficulties other than what is normal for someone with his condition. By the time she realized it, it may have already been too late. jmo

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I felt that her isolation; and her trips alone out of town without him spoke volumes of what she was going thru; living with him. Trying to keep it together.....but failing and knowing it. He wasn't "right" and she knew.......she knew. No one was allowed inside the home from what I recall. No visitors. Now we know why. It's like she was hiding a huge secret. The mental health field to me is a huge failure and has been for far too long. We no longer take care of people; we only care if their insurance will last two weeks for a bed, after that; the families and friends and loved ones are pushed right out the doors of most hospitals. We do not care.

I believe that she couldn't get the help for him because of this situ with the Insurance Co's. Let alone; what our "mental health care" has become....to me it's based on nonsense. Like SSRIs.

Money was clearly not a issue for this family, like it might be in other cases. There are places all over the country that treat illnesses that money can buy. I don't think insurance has anything to do with it.

This reminds me of families that have one dysfunctional family member and another that is a enabler. That one family member controls the entire dynamics of the household and no one does anything about it. What ends up happening is the entire household suffers mentally and emotionally.

In this case, the enabler paid the ultimate price for allowing the dysfunctional family member control, despite their degree of insanity. People die all over the country every day because they enable and minimize a family members behavior.

I don't understand why people don't intervene and ask for help because I'm not like that. I have had to step in and literally force people to do something because they refused to call in help for a sick loved one or leave a abusive relationship that was harming the children in the home.

All I can think of in some cases is it's a pride thing or embarrassment that causes people not to ask for help sometimes. Maybe they feel like they failed and asking for help in their mind is a sign of their own failure, when in reality asking for help is the opposite. NL's emails certainly gave me the impression she felt she was above others.

.

 

[MissJ]

But..but..having insurance does not equal being able to get help. JMO. I have a close family member who is a troubled child. A violent child. His mother has insurance and has sought help since he was two. He is very big for his age and violent with every one. He has hurt his brother and sister who are younger and much smaller. He is out of control. Psychiatrist say he needs counseling. He is four. He has had a lot of counseling to no avail. No one seems to know what to do. Until he kills someone in his family then everyone will be criticizing his family. He is bigger than I was when I was 13. 75 lbs. What do you do when no one helps? JMO.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

But..but..having insurance does not equal being able to get help. JMO. I have a close family member who is a troubled child. A violent child. His mother has insurance and has sought help since he was two. He is very big for his age and violent with every one. He has hurt his brother and sister who are younger and much smaller. He is out of control. Psychiatrist say he needs counseling. He is four. He has had a lot of counseling to no avail. No one seems to know what to do. Until he kills someone in his family then everyone will be criticizing his family. He is bigger than I was when I was 13. 75 lbs. What do you do when no one helps? JMO.

That has to be horribly difficult for the family. He is so young. I saw a program on tv where a family had this problem and they moved into two separate apartments that were next to each other to protect the other kids. I wish I could remember the childs diagnosis and the name of the show. The parents were doing everything they could to help their child.

There are more options for teen and adult children though and when you have unlimited funds and time, it certainly is an advantage over the majority of the rest of the population.

I wonder why she didn't put him in a group home type situation. As a parent, I would think of that as a healthier option for someone his age, where he would get services and interact with others.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

But..but..having insurance does not equal being able to get help. JMO. I have a close family member who is a troubled child. A violent child. His mother has insurance and has sought help since he was two. He is very big for his age and violent with every one. He has hurt his brother and sister who are younger and much smaller. He is out of control. Psychiatrist say he needs counseling. He is four. He has had a lot of counseling to no avail. No one seems to know what to do. Until he kills someone in his family then everyone will be criticizing his family. He is bigger than I was when I was 13. 75 lbs. What do you do when no one helps? JMO.

Medicate.
And I'm being serious......

The Doctor needs to put him on some xanax or valium before he hurts someone. Counseling has not helped.

 

[x_files]

But..but..having insurance does not equal being able to get help. JMO. I have a close family member who is a troubled child. A violent child. His mother has insurance and has sought help since he was two. He is very big for his age and violent with every one. He has hurt his brother and sister who are younger and much smaller. He is out of control. Psychiatrist say he needs counseling. He is four. He has had a lot of counseling to no avail. No one seems to know what to do. Until he kills someone in his family then everyone will be criticizing his family. He is bigger than I was when I was 13. 75 lbs. What do you do when no one helps? JMO.

If violent he needs to be institutionalized. That's why it exists when the parents are at wits end.

 

[jjenny]

That has to be horribly difficult for the family. He is so young. I saw a program on tv where a family had this problem and they moved into two separate apartments that were next to each other to protect the other kids. I wish I could remember the childs diagnosis and the name of the show. The parents were doing everything they could to help their child.

There are more options for teen and adult children though and when you have unlimited funds and time, it certainly is an advantage over the majority of the rest of the population.

I wonder why she didn't put him in a group home type situation. As a parent, I would think of that as a healthier option for someone his age, where he would get services and interact with others.

That child had childhood scizophrenia. They moved into two separate apartment for while. Their second child is autistic and possibly schizophrenic as well.

"What saved the family was deciding to live separately, moving into two apartments – one for Jani and one for Bodhi – so Jani would be less likely to try to hurt her brother. The parents swapped places every night. Jani’s apartment was modelled on the UCLA ward, with a whiteboard listing her schedule and the “staff member” (parent) taking care of her that day. The unconventional arrangement worked: without Bodhi, Jani no longer had to fight with the voices telling her to hurt him. She became calmer and more relaxed."



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/c...ds-imaginary-friends-were-hallucinations.html

 

[K_Z]

But..but..having insurance does not equal being able to get help. JMO. I have a close family member who is a troubled child. A violent child. His mother has insurance and has sought help since he was two. He is very big for his age and violent with every one. He has hurt his brother and sister who are younger and much smaller. He is out of control. Psychiatrist say he needs counseling. He is four. He has had a lot of counseling to no avail. No one seems to know what to do. Until he kills someone in his family then everyone will be criticizing his family. He is bigger than I was when I was 13. 75 lbs. What do you do when no one helps? JMO.

In my experience, not much happens with evaluations and diagnoses (mental health wise) during the preschool years. There is much reluctance to diagnose or label preschoolers, as they change so fast as they mature. Even kids who are let go from daycare situations for alarming behaviors don't usually get a diagnosis right away.

There seem to be 3 times in childhood when there is more drive to legitimize behaviors into diagnoses. The first is when kids start kindergarten-- though it usually takes the whole kindergarten year to accomplish all of the observations and testing (privately, outside of the school system, but the school will push the parents to do it if the child's behavior is very alarming).

The second time is the beginning of 3rd grade. There is much reluctance on the part of public schools to initiate the "in school" system testing process for IEP's/ special ed, EBD plans, etc. before 3rd grade (unless the parents have sought and pursued evaluation and treatment on their own before this). From K-2 they want to "watch" and "wait" to see if the child matures out of the alarming behaviors. Public schools can't initiate things like IEP's and personal attendants until comprehensive evals have taken place-- and for some reason, the beginning of 3rd grade is the time when they seem to feel action is warranted to spend the time and $$ to test.

The third sensitive time is at the beginning of middle school.

This child's parents should continue to seek out referrals for pediatric medical and mental health professionals, to accelerate the evaluation and treatment timeline. If possible, I'd recommend a pediatric mental health team/ neurobehavioral eval at a major university medical center. It would help immensely as he begins to transition to school. (JMO)

 

[K_Z]

That has to be horribly difficult for the family. He is so young. I saw a program on tv where a family had this problem and they moved into two separate apartments that were next to each other to protect the other kids. I wish I could remember the childs diagnosis and the name of the show. The parents were doing everything they could to help their child.

There are more options for teen and adult children though and when you have unlimited funds and time, it certainly is an advantage over the majority of the rest of the population.

I wonder why she didn't put him in a group home type situation. As a parent, I would think of that as a healthier option for someone his age, where he would get services and interact with others.

BBM. JMO, but from what has been made public, I believe NL was in complete denial as to how severe her son's social and mental issues were.

She focused on his education-- enrolling him in community college when high school became too difficult socially and behaviorally for him. Academically, he was bright, but socially, he was a complete disaster. He apparently decompensated socially shortly after his computer job ended-- quit going to school, etc. NL, IMO, never demonstrated that she considered a group home as a positive thing to work toward. Before he turned 18, she actively avoided all of the care that would have lead up to a placement recommendation for him to live more independently from Nancy, and a team of social workers to monitor and assess him as he gained independence.

NL was totally focused on being his lifeline, and his caregiver-- not focused on gathering resources to help him (and HER) long term. Her solution to any of his problems was to shelter him and remove him from whatever the environment was, until he was a shut in in her basement. Playing violent video games for days on end-- that she paid for (the games, the internet connection, and the computers to play them on). And buying him more guns. And giving him "privacy", rather than recognizing that he needed supervision and observation MORE than he needed "privacy".

He was not a normal teen who can be afforded increasing levels of privacy-- he was a highly disturbed teen who needed supervision and observation, and she never allowed herself to see this, or accept that he was not progressing toward any kind of independence in life management. It was the act of allowing him months of "privacy" in her home that allowed his violent obsessions to flourish, IMO. Privacy permitted him to post a 7 foot list of mass murders, in rank order. Privacy enabled every disordered thought to become Adam Lanza's reality. Until he carried out his massacre.

 

[iSleuth]

But it appears that as a family early on they did nothing illegal. Also there are many children who learn to shoot a rifle or shotgun early in their teens for hunting reasons. Certainly not 4 years old. It does not appear that his mother did anything wrong by taking him to the shooting range to learn how to handle a gun. She had full control of his activities according to what the judge ruled. That left the influence of anyone else out of the picture as NL seemed to have gone along with isolating him from having any healthy relationships whatsoever. That made NL solely responsible with the help of a judge. From what we now know she was the last person who ever should have been in charge of her son. jmo

http://www.ct.gov/despp/lib/despp/slfu/ct_firearms_law_reference_guide_2010.pdf

I agree. 1000 % She did have all power and abused her power too. Not that this helps anything but I keep going back to the guns laws in place here in CT ( where I live) that she broke which are felonies. Laws about transferring guns, supervising people who are 21 who are using guns and storing guns, and other laws which pertain to seizing guns for those who are mentally unstable.

I keep going back to the statutes in place at the time-because to me as a mom - and CT resident, I can't agree on one thing NL chose to do with her son.

Is This is not why we have laws that are in place that have to stand between our personal choices and freedom and hobbies?

I have no idea what she was thinking. Maybe we are onto something about her mental health too.

Somewhere around here there are links to her own dooms -day prepper mentality .

Thanks for listening.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[K_Z]

It's just very sad and puzzling to me why the Sandy Hook massacre has been framed in the ongoing public discussion almost totally as a "gun control" issue. I am completely baffled why there isn't a huge public discussion about mental health care and management-- particularly for minors and young adults. Adam Lanza was about as mentally ill as it is possible to be, without being catatonic. Why is that being minimized in the public conversation?

IMO, it's almost like politicians and pundits are throwing up their hands about the mental health issues, because gun control is "easier" to focus on than actually trying to fix our mental health system.

We have decided that the bar for compulsory intervention for mental illness is so incredibly high that essentially there is no way to compel people into treatment or evaluation until there is an imminent homicidal catastrophe or suicide. We have the will to legally compel parents to obtain medical treatment like chemotherapy for their children-- but why not treatment for mental and emotional care? SMH. I really can't understand why.

The public ramifications of untreated mental illness should be more than enough justification to compel treatment. I get that it's a complex discussion-- who is "sick enough" to be compelled to receive evaluation and treatment, rights of parents, rights of those over 18-- but come on! Do we really have to say that people have the right to refuse treatment right up to the point when they go on an irreversible homicidal rampage?? Then we outsource institutionalization to the prison system. There has to be another answer. I really don't think all this gun control rhetoric is going to "fix" the problems of homicidal maniacs on a rampage. They'll just choose a different weapon-- like driving a bus into a crowd of people. The discussion about AL's severe mental issues has been completely drowned out by the gun control conversation. BOTH conversations need to happen.

I'm increasingly worried that these homicidal maniacs are being viewed as "simply" criminals who made a decision to murder-- as if that was a rational decision.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/25/politics/guns-sandy-hook-next/index.html

http://blog.mlive.com/flintjournal/aheller/2013/12/andrew_heller_the_sandy_hook_v.html

....rant complete.....

 

[animlzrule]

It's just very sad and puzzling to me why the Sandy Hook massacre has been framed in the ongoing public discussion almost totally as a "gun control" issue. I am completely baffled why there isn't a huge public discussion about mental health care and management-- particularly for minors and young adults. Adam Lanza was about as mentally ill as it is possible to be, without being catatonic. Why is that being minimized in the public conversation?

IMO, it's almost like politicians and pundits are throwing up their hands about the mental health issues, because gun control is "easier" to focus on than actually trying to fix our mental health system.

We have decided that the bar for compulsory intervention for mental illness is so incredibly high that essentially there is no way to compel people into treatment or evaluation until there is an imminent homicidal catastrophe or suicide. We have the will to legally compel parents to obtain medical treatment like chemotherapy for their children-- but why not treatment for mental and emotional care? SMH. I really can't understand why.

The public ramifications of untreated mental illness should be more than enough justification to compel treatment. I get that it's a complex discussion-- who is "sick enough" to be compelled to receive evaluation and treatment, rights of parents, rights of those over 18-- but come on! Do we really have to say that people have the right to refuse treatment right up to the point when they go on an irreversible homicidal rampage?? Then we outsource institutionalization to the prison system. There has to be another answer. I really don't think all this gun control rhetoric is going to "fix" the problems of homicidal maniacs on a rampage. They'll just choose a different weapon-- like driving a bus into a crowd of people. The discussion about AL's severe mental issues has been completely drowned out by the gun control conversation. BOTH conversations need to happen.

I'm increasingly worried that these homicidal maniacs are being viewed as "simply" criminals who made a decision to murder-- as if that was a rational decision.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/25/politics/guns-sandy-hook-next/index.html

http://blog.mlive.com/flintjournal/aheller/2013/12/andrew_heller_the_sandy_hook_v.html

....rant complete.....

Excellent post. However, I do believe that gun control, along with mental illness needs to be a big part of the conversation. I think you're right in that the thought of dealing with treatment of mental illness in the country is so overwhelming, not to mention expensive, that politicians won't touch it with a 10 foot pole. And let's face it, we have a segment of society that doesn't even believe the citizenry of our country has a right to even the most basic of health care, let alone treatment for mental illness. AL was clearly severely mentally ill, but I don't think we would have had the massacre at Sandy Hook if he hadn't had weapons available to him. And the ready availability and carelessness of some gun owners is on constant display with the almost daily "accidental" deaths in our country. It took less than 10 minutes for him to kill 26 people. The gun lobby is obviously more powerful and influential than any mental health advocacy. To minimize the role that guns played in this tragedy would be a great disservice to the memory of those children, who would be alive today if he wasn't able to have high capacity automatic weapons. There is going to be more access to mental health with the ACA, but not nearly enough. We need to continue to battle both the availability of guns in this country as well as the epidemic of mental illness. They many times go hand in hand.

 

[jjenny]

I don't think access to mental health care was the problem here.
AL clearly could have had access to mental health care, since he was very well provided for through alimony to the mother.
Apparently he didn't like taking meds and I presume wouldn't go to a doctor either during his later years.
So how would better access to mental health care help in a situation like this?
Considering most people don't seem to support someone being locked up in a mental hospital agains their will.

 

[time]

Lots of great posts - thanks everyone. I think this is a mental health care and gun control problem, but probably not typical concerning either.

Nancy could have gotten more help, in my opinion, and I agree that for some reasons her only strategy was to be an enabler. She could easily have gotten mental health care access. She chose not to and, evidently, didn't get help for herself either, but chose to get away from the problem more and more. I think the problem here is possibly mental health education, not access. Although Nancy was no dummy and could have gone for advice. Instead, she let him become totally isolated, living in a darkened basement. That isn't healthy for anyone. His last pictures already looked like he was a ghost, a shell of a human being.

The gun problem, in my mind, is as someone else pointed out. She allowed him access to guns that she bought. Yes, I think that was a crime, but also just irrational given the circumstances. I don't know how many times (even younger) children have killed someone because the parents didn't lock up their guns and ammo. But come on, do you buy guns and leave an unlocked arsenal of guns in the house for anyone who has mental problems?

I just don't know what she thought the end game was with him.

 

[time]

Apparently his mental state took a nose dive during the last couple of years. Before that he was odd BUT he entered college at 16 and got good grades, he had a part time job repairing computers and he did well at it (until the company closed down), and even though he had social issues good grades and a job mean he was functioning pretty well.

http://www.heavy.com/news/2013/04/adam-lanza-college-records-new-photo/

I honestly don't think he was doing great for many years, but maybe he had times that were better than others.

Over the years from late 1990s and into the 2000s, Lanza had various medical evaluations, the report says. In the late 1990s he was described as having speech and language needs and was being followed for seizure activities. His mother consistently described him as having Asperger’s syndrome.

In preschool he showed “repetitive behaviors, temper tantrums, smelling things that were not there, excessive hand washing and eating idiosyncrasies.”

http://www.nhregister.com/general-n...ne-in-slayings-motive-may-never-be-determined

The official report also says that "In some contexts he was viewed as having above-average intelligence; in others below-average." This is how he scored on intelligence tests also although they were not able to give him tests that required handling objects.

There's a lot in the report about his history and behavior over time beginning on page 29.

In 2006, the shooter's mother noted that there were marked changes to the shooter's behavior around the seventh grade.

It seems around then his teacher was concerned also. In 2005, there was also another diagnosis. It seems Adam never participated in what was advised (no drugs or therapy).

www.nhregister.com/general-news/20131125/read-the-full-sandy-hook-report

 

[colette]

There will be an encore presentation of "Raising Adam Lanza" on PBS Frontline Dec 10.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/social-issues/raising-adam-lanza/raising-adam-lanza/

 

[HMSHood]

That child had childhood scizophrenia. They moved into two separate apartment for while. Their second child is autistic and possibly schizophrenic as well.

"What saved the family was deciding to live separately, moving into two apartments – one for Jani and one for Bodhi – so Jani would be less likely to try to hurt her brother. The parents swapped places every night. Jani’s apartment was modelled on the UCLA ward, with a whiteboard listing her schedule and the “staff member” (parent) taking care of her that day. The unconventional arrangement worked: without Bodhi, Jani no longer had to fight with the voices telling her to hurt him. She became calmer and more relaxed."



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/c...ds-imaginary-friends-were-hallucinations.html

That is really young for someone to have schizophrenia. Childhood schizophrenia is controversial for many reasons. Not sure if Lanza had it.

Early Onset Schizophrenia
http://www.nami.org/Content/ContentGroups/Helpline1/Early_Onset_Schizophrenia.htm

Stimulant drug treatment in childhood-onset schizophrenia with comorbid ADHD: an open-label case series.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15650502/

 

[jjenny]

I've seen zero evidence suggesting Lanza had schizophrenia.
Scizophrenic hear voices (commands) telling them to hurt someone (for example). Not a single person have come forward suggesting Lanza ever heard voices.