Could Bush Have Done More

[kgeaux]

I see you saying it will be debated in the future and that if Bush had done it, Dems would be screaming (pardon the paraphrse; apologies if I haven't caught the essence). And that in drills they said the governor should remain in charge. But in those drills, did they have a governor who was doing as Blanco did and were the cirrcumstances the same? Can't Bush deviate from a drill when people are dying in order to save lives?

If his decision was politically motivated, and people died because of it when he could have saved them, it's akin to murder. imo.

I posted this above:

It seems like they were prepared to use them, and thus use the Insurrection Act, so what happened? Did things not get bad enough?

Oh, golly, I can't keep my fingers off the keyboard. It looks like the Insurrection Act gives a president authority to federalize troops. I think whether or not THIS situation fit the criteria to use the Insurrection Act is what took much discussion. His own advisors did not agree that he could usurp her position.

In bi-partisanship, I will tell you that if the shoe were on a different foot, a Democratic president wresting control from a Republican governor, I believe the discussions at the federal level would have been the same.


Editing to add furthur response (my fingers just wanna move!)

The situation fitting the criteria is if it is a matter in which the president can invoke the Insurrection Act, wouldn't it be? Such as if it fits the definition of whether or not he CAN invoke it. In which case, who's in charge doesn't matter. He can federalize.

Agreed, if it fits the criteria to invoke the Insurrection Act, the president can federalize.

 

[less0305]

In bi-partisanship, I will tell you that if the shoe were on a different foot, a Democratic president wresting control from a Republican governor, I believe the discussions at the federal level would have been the same.

Oh, absolutely, Kgeaux. It's a decision of monumental proportions!!!!

 

[Dara]

I think it is way too easy to blame Bush for everything that goes wrong in this country. But first everyone needs to understand how our government works.



Please note that the definition of republic or repubicanism is spelled with a small "r" and not to be confused with the Republican Party.

Because our system of government is designed to protect state's rights, there are limitations as to what the federal government can do without the states giving their consent. And in most instances each state has a similar provisions involving counties and cities.

My point is that the federal solution is not as simple as it may appear. Until an investigation takes place (hopefully by an independent non-political body) we will not know the full story. I think we are all frustrated that the entire situation wasn't handled more competently.

As JBean says, it should make us all more aware of our local elected officials, and just how prepared our own communitities need to be in the event of a disaster.

Thank you for the information. I agree that we are all frustrated and that we perhaps won't know until an investigation takes place. That applies to a lot of things we're discussing actively. As we learn more, as we become more informed our opinions change. I'm trying to figure this out, and will continue to.

I am glad there are checks and balances. But I feel with what I know now Bush waited too long to invoke his right to federalize the troops. Yes, the Insurrection Act is not used often, and for good reason. But this, we keep hearing, is an unprecendented situation. The governor, if you believe the worst, was impeding aid. Bush supposedly gave her 24 hours to think about whether she wanted federal aid. He deferred to the person making the problem worse, if you will, while people died. Did he have other options. Could he have gotten on TV and said, It's the governor's call and in 24 hours she'll decide if she wants troops. I'm not saying he should have done that; I'm asking if he could. What were his options?

But we could also talk about other ways he could have done more. Like choosing people with a smidge of experience and qualification. I'm very concerned with the people who run FEMA and Homeland Security. I started this thread to talk about all of it.

 

[JBean]

-----Dara, I'll have to finish this later - my husband needs to use the computer for something rather urgent......Bye.....let me just add that there's no way to intelligently discuss the federal level without discussing and understanding the local and state obligations.

Larkit, I have just realized that i missed many of your posts. You seem very knowledgable and I am anxious to hear what you have to say.

 

[TexMex]

I'm not understanding how anyone can decide what Bush should have done without knowing what other levels of government should have done. He is not, IMO, responsible for their screwups. I'm not saying he is not to be found fault with, just that without discussing the totality, how can we ever parse it?

Here's how kgeaux


If Bush did it or didn't do it = Bad

If state, local did it or didn't do it = we just don't have enough information to judge right now


The Wall Street Journal


The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid.

In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people.

 

[Dara]

Well, Dara, I guess there is absolutely nothing left to say except I hope I never live in the Country you propose. I hope I'm dead and gone before that precedence is set and then repeated over and over and over again.

I haven't proposed any "Country." Our country has the Insurrection Act and it has not been established that Bush had or had no recourse to use it. Apparently, if you go by posts, it's too early to say definitively that he could have used it, but not too early to say he definitively could have. It's been suggested to me I don't have enough information and should wait until after the investigations. If I should, so should you, according to that line of thinking.

Am I seeing a double standard?

People ask for things...demand things....and then find out it might not have been such a good thing to ask for. That old saying, "Careful what you wish for."

I'm sure the people who died in the convention center wishing the president who promised he would keep them safe had kept his promise would have regretted asking for that if they had lived.

 

[JBean]

Here's how kgeaux


If Bush did it or didn't do it = Bad

If state, local did it or didn't do it = we just don't have enough information to judge right now


The Wall Street Journal


The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid.

In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people.

That says it all ,IMO.

 

[tybee204]

This is really interesting. It basically shows exactly what the President can and is obligated to do.


This is from the ROBERT T. STAFFORD DISASTER RELIEF AND
EMERGENCY ASSISTANCE ACT

http://www.ohioema.org/robertt.htm



ROBERT T. STAFFORD DISASTER RELIEF AND
EMERGENCY ASSISTANCE ACT

P.L. 93-288, as amended

TITLE I - FINDINGS, DECLARATIONS, AND DEFINITIONS

FINDINGS AND DECLARATIONS

Sec. 101. The Congress hereby finds and declares that

(1) because disasters often cause loss of life, human suffering, loss of income, and property loss and damage; and
(2) because disasters often disrupt the normal functioning of governments and communities, and adversely affect individuals and families with great severity; special measures, designed to assist the efforts of the affected States in expediting the rendering of aid, assistance, and emergency services, and the reconstruction and rehabilitation of devastated areas, are necessary.

(b) It is the intent of Congress, by this Act, to provide an orderly and continuing means of assistance by the Federal Government to State and local governments in carrying out their responsibilities to alleviate the suffering and damage which result from such disasters by -

(1) revising and broadening the scope of existing disaster relief programs;
(2) encouraging the development of comprehensive disaster preparedness and assistance plans, programs, capabilities, and organizations by the States and by local government;
(3) achieving greater coordination and responsiveness of disaster preparedness and relief programs;
(4) encouraging individuals, States, and local governments to protect themselves by obtaining insurance coverage to supplement or replace governmental assistance;
(5) encouraging hazard mitigation measures to reduce losses from disasters, including development of land use and construction regulations; and
(6) providing Federal assistance programs for both public and private losses sustained in disasters.

DEFINITIONS

Sec. 102. As used in this Act

(1) "Emergency" means any occasion or instance for which, in the determination of the President, Federal assistance is needed to supplement State and local efforts and capabilities to save lives and to protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in any part of the United States."
(2) "Major disaster" means any natural catastrophe (including any hurricane, tornado, storm, high water, windriven water, tidal wave, tsunami, earthquake, volcanic eruption, landslide, mudslide, snowstorm or drought), or, regardless of cause, any fire, flood, or explosion, in any part of the United States, which in the determination of the President causes damage of sufficient severity and magnitude to warrant major disaster assistance under this Act to supplement the efforts and available resources of States, local governments, and disaster relief organizations in alleviating the damage, loss, hardship, or suffering caused thereby."
(3) "United States" means the fifty States, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa, and the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands.
(4) "State" means any State of the United States, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa, or the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands.
(5) "Governor" means the chief executive of any State.
(6) "Local government" means (A) any county, city, village, town, district, or other political subdivision of any State, any Indian tribe or authorized tribal organization, or Alaska Native village or organization, and (B) includes any rural community or unincorporated town or village or any other public entity for which an application for assistance is made by a State of political subdivision thereof.
(7) "Federal agency" means any department, independent establishment, Government corporation, or other agency of the executive branch of the Federal Government, including the United States Postal Service, but shall not include the American National Red Cross.
(8) "Public facility" means the following facilities owned by a State or local government:
(A) Any flood control, navigation, irrigation, reclamation, public power, sewage treatment and collection, water supply and distribution, watershed development, or airport facility.
(B) Any non-Federal-aid street, road, or highway.
(C) Any other public building, structure, or system, including those used for educational, recreational, or cultural purposes.
(D) Any park.
(9) "Private nonprofit facility" means private nonprofit educational, utility, emergency, medical, rehabilitation, and temporary or permanent custodial care facilities (including those for the aged and disabled), other private nonprofit facilities which provide essential services of a governmental nature to the general public, and facilities on Indian reservations as defined by the President.

TITLE II - DISASTER PREPAREDNESS ASSISTANCE
FEDERAL AND STATE DISASTER PREPAREDNESS PROGRAMS

Sec. 201 (a) The President is authorized to establish a program of disaster preparedness that utilizes services of all appropriate agencies and includes -

(1) preparation of disaster preparedness plans for mitigation, warning, emergency operations, rehabilitation, and recovery;
(2) training and exercises;
(3) postdisaster critiques and evaluations;
(4) annual review of programs;
(5) coordination of Federal, State, and local preparedness programs;
(6) application of science and technology;
(7) research.

(b) The President shall provide technical assistance to the States in developing comprehensive plans and practicable programs for preparation against disasters, including hazard reduction, avoidance, and mitigation; for assistance to individuals, businesses, and State and local governments following such disasters; and for recovery of damaged or destroyed public and private facilities.

(c) Upon application by a State, the President is authorized to make grants not to exceed in the aggregate to such State $250,000, for the development of plans, programs, and capabilities for disaster preparedness and prevention. Such grants shall be applied for within one year from the date of enactment of this Act. Any State desiring financial assistance under this section shall designate or create an agency to plan and administer such a disaster preparedness program, and shall, through such agency, submit a State plan to the President, which shall-

(1) set forth a comprehensive and detailed State program for preparation against and assistance following, emergencies and major disasters, including provisions for assistance to individuals, businesses, and local government; and
(2) include provisions for appointment and training of appropriate staffs, formulation of necessary regulations and procedures and conduct of required exercises.

(d) The President is authorized to make grants not to exceed 50 percentum of the cost of improving, maintaining and updating State disaster assistance plans including evaluations of natural hazards and development of the programs and actions required to mitigate such hazards, except that no such grant shall exceed $50,000 per annum to any State.

DISASTER WARNINGS

Sec. 202. (a) The President shall insure that all appropriate Federal agencies are prepared to issue warnings of disasters to State and local officials.

(b) The President shall direct appropriate Federal agencies to provide technical assistance to State and local governments to insure that timely and effective disaster warning is provided.

(c) The President is authorized to utilize or to make available to Federal, State, and local agencies the facilities of the civil defense communications system established and maintained pursuant to section 201(c) of the Federal Civic Defense Act of 1950, as amended (50 U.S.C. App. 2281(c)), or any other Federal communications system for the purpose of providing warning to governmental authorities and the civilian population in areas endangered by disasters.

(d) The President is authorized to enter into agreements with the officers or agents of any private or commercial communications systems who volunteer the use of their systems on a reimbursable or nonreimbursable basis for the purpose of providing warning to governmental authorities and the civilian population endangered by disasters.

TITLE III - MAJOR DISASTER AND EMERGENCY ASSISTANCE ADMINISTRATION

WAIVER OF ADMINISTRATIVE CONDITIONS

Sec. 301. Any Federal agency charged with the administration of a Federal assistance program may, if so requested by the applicant State or local authorities, modify or waive, for a major disaster, such administrative conditions for assistance as would otherwise prevent the giving of assistance under such programs if the inability to meet such conditions is a result of a major disaster.

COORDINATING OFFICERS

Sec. 302. (a) Immediately upon his declaration of a major disaster or emergency, the President shall appoint a Federal coordinating officer to operate in the affected area.

(b) In order to effectuate the purposes of this Act, the Federal coordinating officer, within the affected area, shall

(1) make an initial appraisal of the types of relief most urgently needed;
(2) establish such field offices as he deems necessary and as are authorized by the President;
(3) coordinate the administration of relief, including activities of the State and local government, the American National Red Cross, the Salvation Army, the Mennonite Disaster Service, and other relief or disaster assistance organizations, which agree to operate under his advice or direction, except that nothing contained in this Act shall limit or in any way affect the responsibilities of the American National Red Cross under the Act of January 5, 1905, as amended (33 Stat. 599); and
(4) take such other action, consistent with authority delegated to him by the President, and consistent with the provisions of this Act, as he may deem necessary to assist local citizens and public officials in promptly obtaining assistance to which they are entitled.

(c) When the President determines assistance under this Act is necessary, he shall request that the Governor of the affected State designate a State coordinating officer for the purposes of coordinating State and local disaster assistance efforts with those of the Federal Government.








FOOD COMMODITIES

Sec. 413. (a) The President is authorized and directed to assure that adequate stocks of food will be ready and conveniently available for emergency mass feeding or distribution in any area of the United States which suffers a major disaster or emergency.

(b) The Secretary of Agriculture shall utilize funds appropriated under section 32 of the Act of August 24, 1935 (7 U.S.C. 612c), to purchase food commodities necessary to provide adequate supplies for use in any area of the United States in the event of a major disaster or emergency in such area.

 

[Ntegrity]

If Bush did it or didn't do it = Bad

If state, local did it or didn't do it = we just don't have enough information to judge right now

You've got that 100% correct.

The Wall Street Journal

The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid.

In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people.

I think I said this yesterday, but I need to say it just once more. You come up with some really fabulous references. Thanks, Tex.

 

[Dara]

Here's how kgeaux

The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid.

In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people.

TexMex, could we get a link to that? Or at least an author so I can find it myself? I'm sure I read it when you first posted it, but I'd like to go to the source.

 

[TexMex]

I'm sure the people who died in the convention center wishing the president who promised he would keep them safe had kept his promise would have regretted asking for that if they had lived.

Bush tried to FEDERERALIZE the evacuation of NO

The National Guard reports to the governor. What can FEMA do if the governor is playing politics?

Washington Post 9/3

Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state's emergency operations center said Saturday.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request.

 

[Dara]

This is really interesting. It basically shows exactly what the President can and is obligated to do.


This is from the ROBERT T. STAFFORD DISASTER RELIEF AND
EMERGENCY ASSISTANCE ACT

Thanks, tybee. Interesting reading.

 

[Dara]

Bush tried to FEDERERALIZE the evacuation of NO

BLANCO refused for selfish political reasons:

And if that is true, and the president could invoke the Insurrection Act, but did not, he is not blameless.

IMO. You may not agree.

BTW, your link doesn't work.

 

[TexMex]

TexMex, could we get a link to that? Or at least an author so I can find it myself? I'm sure I read it when you first posted it, but I'd like to go to the source.

WSJ: Blame Amid The Tragedy

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/0,,SB112596602138332256-IVjf4NilaJ4nZupaoGGa6uBm4,00.html

A year ago, as Hurricane Ivan approached, New Orleans ordered an evacuation but did not use city or school buses to help people evacuate. As a result many of the poorest citizens were unable to evacuate. Fortunately, the hurricane changed course and did not hit New Orleans, but both Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin acknowledged the need for a better evacuation plan. Again, they did not take corrective actions. In 1998, during a threat by Hurricane George, 14,000 people were sent to the Superdome and theft and vandalism were rampant due to inadequate security. Again, these problems were not corrected.

 

[Ntegrity]

tybee, that's some great information you posted too. My question is the following. When it talks about the president's authorization to do those things, hasn't he fulfilled that responsibility by freeing up assets and agencies when he declared a state of emergency well ahead of time for the affected states? Or shall I assume that he, Laura, and the twins were supposed to dash down to Nawlins and stock the evacuation shelters with bottled water and MREs?

 

[Dara]

Here's how kgeaux
The Wall Street Journal


The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid.

In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people.

Never mind the link. I found it. It's that opinion piece by Bob Williams. I looked him up. Interesting ties to convservatives. I believe they give a lot of money to his foundation. It's in another thread.

 

[tybee204]

tybee, that's some great information you posted too. My question is the following. When it talks about the president's authorization to do those things, hasn't he fulfilled that responsibility by freeing up assets and agencies when he declared a state of emergency well ahead of time for the affected states? Or shall I assume that he, Laura, and the twins were supposed to dash down to Nawlins and stock the evacuation shelters with bottled water and MREs?

Sec. 302. (a) Immediately upon his declaration of a major disaster or emergency, the President shall appoint a Federal coordinating officer to operate in the affected area.

(b) In order to effectuate the purposes of this Act, the Federal coordinating officer, within the affected area, shall

(1) make an initial appraisal of the types of relief most urgently needed;
(2) establish such field offices as he deems necessary and as are authorized by the President;
(3) coordinate the administration of relief, including activities of the State and local government, the American National Red Cross, the Salvation Army, the Mennonite Disaster Service, and other relief or disaster assistance organizations, which agree to operate under his advice or direction, except that nothing contained in this Act shall limit or in any way affect the responsibilities of the American National Red Cross under the Act of January 5, 1905, as amended (33 Stat. 599); and
(4) take such other action, consistent with authority delegated to him by the President, and consistent with the provisions of this Act, as he may deem necessary to assist local citizens and public officials in promptly obtaining assistance to which they are entitled.

(c) When the President determines assistance under this Act is necessary, he shall request that the Governor of the affected State designate a State coordinating officer for the purposes of coordinating State and local disaster assistance efforts with those of the Federal Government.

 

[Dara]

Immediately upon his declaration of a major disaster or emergency, the President shall appoint a Federal coordinating officer to operate in the affected area.

Would that be Chertoff? I think since he's over FEMA, too, he should be. I'll have to look it up.

 

[Ntegrity]

Now all I need is a lawyer of constitutionalist to decipher the code. :doh:

 

[tybee204]

Truthfully Ntegrity I dont understand your sarcasm.