Could Bush Have Done More

[TexMex]

Sorry, Tex. Not playing the game. I'm here to discuss the hurricane, not to police other people's posts or have mine policed, except by mods.

What? Bush deployed the Coast Guard and Army Corps of Engineers DAY 1
within hours of the levee break. Do you applaud him for that? Why is that hard to answer? It's the topic of your thread!

 

[kgeaux]

Right. All she had to do was ask. Which she quite posssibly did (New Mexico, White House didn't approve until Thursday). I understand that. She should have done a lot of things and not done others, and she is likely to blame for many things, many deaths. She could be the anti-Christ, secretly dancing gleefully in front of an altar because people were dying in the streets and areas of NO. That doesn't change whether or not Bush could have federalized the troops earlier.

We have no idea at what point Bush could have initiated the Insurrgance Act. You are basing your entire blame on the assumption that he should have and could have done it sooner. But you don't know that. We do not know that. I have not seen one link which states at which point in a natural disaster the president can push a legally elected governor out of the way and go over her head. I have seen links which say "justice department argued the case" which means the case was not proven prior to that. I have seen links which say his advisors did not have agreement on whether or not he could do this...the links clearly show that there wasn't a clear consensus on whether or not this could be done....I've seen links which say it's illegal for the federal government to take over the law enforcement activities in a state....and indeed, that's why Blanco says she didn't give control over to Bush. She did not want federalized troops performing law enforcement tasks in Louisiana.

You have made the assumption that you know at what point he could declare the Insurrection Act--before the people in the SuperDome were raped, before some died--but you have offered nothing to support your idea that Bush had any legal authority to do anything over the governor's head at that time. Do you have anything to back up your claim that he could have federalized troops earlier than he did? To show that all his advisors were telling him "Go" and none were disagreeing? To show that the justice department had made up its mind that using the Insurrection Act was OK?

We are hashing this out, but it seems to me that you have started with the "fact" that Bush is guilty, while the rest of us are saying "at what point does his guilt begin, if there is guilt?"

 

[Dara]

If he HAD invoked IA every Bush hater would be screaming Fascist and comparing it to the annexation Poland.

Maybe. Maybe there would be more of them around to scream.

I only know if he had invoked it, lives would very likely have been saved.

Since no other president in living memory has utilized it, why do you think he would have?

Didn't his father?

 

[Dara]

We are hashing this out, but it seems to me that you have started with the "fact" that Bush is guilty, while the rest of us are saying "at what point does his guilt begin, if there is guilt?"

Well, I'd been looking into it for a few days, and I'd found all that info. I think that's a good indication that he could have used it, so I'm going from there. It's possible he couldn't have but that's not what seems to be true.

And if there is something that says a president must wait to invoke IA, I'd like to see it. I've been looking and looking. It's hard to prove an negative and everything I've read doesn't specify that he has to wait.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

I don't think your information is accurate. I try to provide links when I can so I can judge for myself. Can you show me something that says it was impossible to get any troops to NO before Saturday?

I don't have to provide a link. Ya know why? because its widely reported that the Governor of Louisiana didn't ask for any troops. Its a matter of public record. You can't move in troops that haven't been requested. And if you saw the footage of the traffic flowing out of the city, you would have noticed they were travelling on both the incoming and outgoing traffic lanes. There are only 4 ways in and out of NO. All but one over open water of some kind. All were jammed.

Many tourists were trapped in the city before the storm hit because air carriers were refusing to fly people out of the airport for fear of losing planes.
However, I have not heard anyone raise a stink over this.

Let me ask you a question--do you live the area? Are you familiar with the over land routes? Do you know the interstate and state highway systems that feed in and out of the city?

 

[Pepper]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexMex
Do you applaud Pres Bush for his quick deployment of the Coast Guard and Army Corps of Engineers?

Dara: Sorry, Tex. Not playing the game. I'm here to discuss the hurricane, not to police other people's posts or have mine policed, except by mods.

Dara, I think TexMex' question is a fair one, and not "game playing." It sticks to your topic about Bush's accountability in this mess.

BillyGG, you are RIGHT ON with your response about states rights. There is a Constitution to consider, along with Bush's oath to uphold it.

 

[Dara]

What? Bush deployed the Coast Guard and Army Corps of Engineers DAY 1
within hours of the levee break. Do you applaud him for that? Why is that hard to answer? It's the topic of your thread!

I really don't want to play into your fixation on me and I think that post does. I wouldn't have before you "All you post is this" and deeming me a Bush hater. Your posts are often more about me and my motivations that discussing the issue of thread. That this one follows the others, in which you accused me of starting this whole thread to bash Bush, which is untrue, but shows the assumptions you will make, tells me this isn't something you want to know.

 

[Dara]

Dara, I think TexMex' question is a fair one, and not "game playing." It sticks to your topic about Bush's accountability in this mess.

BillyGG, you are RIGHT ON with your response about states rights. There is a Constitution to consider, along with Bush's oath to uphold it.

See above. This post comes directly after several about my "hatred" and several others that are very close to if not over the line to being personal attacks. I am trying to defuse that and because I feel there has been a constant thread of overly personal posts, I prefer to not answer.

 

[TexMex]

I really don't want to play into your fixation on me and I think that post does. I wouldn't have before you "All you post is this" and deeming me a Bush hater. Your posts are often more about me and my motivations that discussing the issue of thread. That this one follows the others, in which you accused me of starting this whole thread to bash Bush, which is untrue, but shows the assumptions you will make, tells me this isn't something you want to know.

Who's fixated? Some posters seem 'fixated' on Bush.

Why can't you say if you applaud the POTUS for his quick deployment of the Army Engineers to fix the levee and the Coast Guard to save countless lives--Day 1?

 

[Pepper]

See above. This post comes directly after several about my "hatred" and several others that are very close to if not over the line to being personal attacks. I am trying to defuse that and because I feel there has been a constant thread of overly personal posts, I prefer to not answer.

I respectfully disagree.

And since you want links, can you please point me to a link containing the language of the Insurgency Act you believe gave Bush the power to trump the Louisiana governor?

 

[concernedperson]

What? Bush deployed the Coast Guard and Army Corps of Engineers DAY 1
within hours of the levee break. Do you applaud him for that? Why is that hard to answer? It's the topic of your thread!

Do we know that Bush deployed anyone? The coast guard never asks permission for a rescue that I am aware of. That is their mission and it is ongoing wherever there is water. The coast guard acts immediately in a dire situation. Sort of like lifeguards, someone is drowning they get their butts out of the chair and move without congressional approval.

The Corps of Engineers has a mandate to act in an emergency to make repairs as expedient as possible. This also does not take congressional approval. Some agencies can react without anyone's approval except the military as far as I can see.

I was one calling for the military in New Orleans almost immediately. I tried to find my post on that but couldn't. Too many of them. But the point was I could see the deterioration of the city almost immediately. If I could see it why couldn't others? I am just a regular person with no training in emergency management, I just happen to know that city.

I cannot understand with a human heart why the governor has to go to committee in an emergency. I am serious about annexing Louisiana into Texas. The salvation of the state should not be in the control of those politicians, whether democrat or republican. They have shown absolutely no responsibility as regards human life.

 

[Dara]

I don't have to provide a link. Ya know why? because its widely reported that the Governor of Louisiana didn't ask for any troops.

Of course you don't have to. But I don't think the information is correct.

Its a matter of public record. You can't move in troops that haven't been requested.

And when they weren't and people were dying, invoking IA would have gotten them there, wouldn't it.

Unless you think there was no way to get them there before Saturday.

Let me ask you a question--do you live the area? Are you familiar with the over land routes? Do you know the interstate and state highway systems that feed in and out of the city?

Nope. But I watched the news and I know what the news said about what was open and passable and when.

I don't have to live there to know troops could have gotten there befor Saturday. If it was physically impossible then the governor not requesting them didn't cost lives. But I think it did. And I think Bush not invoking IA did, too.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

Well, I'd been looking into it for a few days, and I'd found all that info. I think that's a good indication that he could have used it, so I'm going from there. It's possible he couldn't have but that's not what seems to be true.

And if there is something that says a president must wait to invoke IA, I'd like to see it. I've been looking and looking. It's hard to prove an negative and everything I've read doesn't specify that he has to wait.

Damned if he did
Damed if he didn't
Face it, you just want to stir a poop pot.
There is more than enough blame to go around, from the President down to the Governror to the mayor to the low-life who was raping 10 year olds in the dark of the Superdome, and the the people who stood around and watched him do it.
No one is going to come out of this smelling like a rose.

 

[Dara]

I respectfully disagree.

And since you want links, can you please point me to a link containing the language of the Insurgency Act you believe gave Bush the power to trump the Louisiana governor?

Go ahead.

Here is one link. There were in other threads many other links to discussions posted. I started this thread to keep it all in one place.

 

[kgeaux]

Well, I'd been looking into it for a few days, and I'd found all that info. I think that's a good indication that he could have used it, so I'm going from there. It's possible he couldn't have but that's not what seems to be true.

And if there is something that says a president must wait to invoke IA, I'd like to see it. I've been looking and looking. It's hard to prove an negative and everything I've read doesn't specify that he has to wait.

There you go! It's possible he couldn't. We have made progress! You will find that more people will want to continue to help hash this out if you are willing to admit that we just don't know that right now.

There is absolutely nothing that I can find showing that the IA has ever been invoked in a natural disaster. Nothing. I've looked, off and on, and found nothing. Hopefully someone will have better luck than me.

The impression I am getting is that it has never been done before. It has never ever had to have been invoked in direct opposition to the governor of a state. And that's why it took some time. Legalities did have to be argued out; Bush could not do something without a clear legal precedence. It is possible that had Bush not been so proactive in trying to find a way to get around Blanco, federal troops would still not be in New Orleans. That's why I'm not outraged YET at the delay for federal troops to show up.

I am outraged at the mayor and governor, because their culpability is clear. For the head of the Red Cross to go on national television and state that the state officials said not to bring food and water because they didn't want people to stay at the superdome, the guilt of those officials is clear. For Blanco to resist help when she so clearly needed it, her guilt is clear. Every death that occured because she withheld food and water, every death that occured because she would not accept help, she has total or partial guilt. Now later, if it is proven that Bush had the authority to invoke the IA on Wednesday afternoon, after things kind of settled down, then I will gladly, happily settle guilt on him, too.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

Do we know that Bush deployed anyone? The coast guard never asks permission for a rescue that I am aware of. That is their mission and it is ongoing wherever there is water. The coast guard acts immediately in a dire situation. Sort of like lifeguards, someone is drowning they get their butts out of the chair and move without congressional approval.

The Corps of Engineers has a mandate to act in an emergency to make repairs as expedient as possible. This also does not take congressional approval. Some agencies can react without anyone's approval except the military as far as I can see.

I was one calling for the military in New Orleans almost immediately. I tried to find my post on that but couldn't. Too many of them. But the point was I could see the deterioration of the city almost immediately. If I could see it why couldn't others? I am just a regular person with no training in emergency management, I just happen to know that city.

I cannot understand with a human heart why the governor has to go to committee in an emergency. I am serious about annexing Louisiana into Texas. The salvation of the state should not be in the control of those politicians, whether democrat or republican. They have shown absolutely no responsibility as regards human life.

The Army Corps of Engineers is actually stationed in NO, at least the division that handles the locks and levees along the Mississippi. My great uncle, rip, used to be their commander general during the 1950s-60s.

Acting is one thing, but having the time and resources is another. The city may have had a couple days advance warning re Katrina, but they would have needed at least a week to get ready for something like this, maybe more. And so much of the warehoused supplies for that region were wiped out by the storm. Normally if Miss gets hit, supplies & equipment come in from LA and AL. If La gets hit, it comes in from Miss, or TX. If AL gets hit, stuff comes in from Miss, etc. But this thing oblierated three states. And you can't move troops or supplies during the storm itself, or even the day after, since the weather is usually bad for hundreds of square miles, and the roads have to be cleared.

 

[Pepper]

There you go! It's possible he couldn't. We have made progress! You will find that more people will want to continue to help hash this out if you are willing to admit that we just don't know that right now.

There is absolutely nothing that I can find showing that the IA has ever been invoked in a natural disaster. Nothing. I've looked, off and on, and found nothing. Hopefully someone will have better luck than me.

The impression I am getting is that it has never been done before. It has never ever had to have been invoked in direct opposition to the governor of a state. And that's why it took some time. Legalities did have to be argued out; Bush could not do something without a clear legal precedence. It is possible that had Bush not been so proactive in trying to find a way to get around Blanco, federal troops would still not be in New Orleans. That's why I'm not outraged YET at the delay for federal troops to show up.

I am outraged at the mayor and governor, because their culpability is clear. For the head of the Red Cross to go on national television and state that the state officials said not to bring food and water because they didn't want people to stay at the superdome, the guilt of those officials is clear. For Blanco to resist help when she so clearly needed it, her guilt is clear. Every death that occured because she withheld food and water, every death that occured because she would not accept help, she has total or partial guilt. Now later, if it is proven that Bush had the authority to invoke the IA on Wednesday afternoon, after things kind of settled down, then I will gladly, happily settle guilt on him, too.

Exactly kgeaux! And the evacuees were told to bring their own food and water to the Superdome. What good is a shelter that can't provide food, water and toilets?

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

Of course you don't have to. But I don't think the information is correct.

And when they weren't and people were dying, invoking IA would have gotten them there, wouldn't it.

Unless you think there was no way to get them there before Saturday.

Nope. But I watched the news and I know what the news said about what was open and passable and when.

I don't have to live there to know troops could have gotten there befor Saturday. If it was physically impossible then the governor not requesting them didn't cost lives. But I think it did. And I think Bush not invoking IA did, too.

So--your info re the news trumps my actual expereince riding out hurricanes in said city? And my expoerience with said government of said city? And my actual experince with the criminals in said city? And mya ctual expereince fleeing said city duing previous hurricanes?

hah.

 

[Dara]

There you go! It's possible he couldn't. We have made progress! You will find that more people will want to continue to help hash this out if you are willing to admit that we just don't know that right now.

Oh, gee. That's just great. LOL. I'd be more willing to discuss with some people if they drop the personal "You're a hater" garbage. But we do what we can.

It's a remote possibility that he couldn't, I believe. It's being reported Bush did use it, and by Thursday seemed to be preparing for it (it's upthread, links and all.

There is absolutely nothing that I can find showing that the IA has ever been invoked in a natural disaster. Nothing. I've looked, off and on, and found nothing. Hopefully someone will have better luck than me.

I can't either, but it has been used in civil unrest and that's what we had. IMO.

The impression I am getting is that it has never been done before. It has never ever had to have been invoked in direct opposition to the governor of a state. And that's why it took some time. Legalities did have to be argued out; Bush could not do something without a clear legal precedence. It is possible that had Bush not been so proactive in trying to find a way to get around Blanco, federal troops would still not be in New Orleans. That's why I'm not outraged YET at the delay for federal troops to show up.

Proactive? I can feel pretty confident in saying when the report comes out, President Bush will not be known as the proactive one. Maybe if they spin hard. With Rove involved, it's possible, but imo inappropriate.

I am outraged at the mayor and governor, because their culpability is clear. For the head of the Red Cross to go on national television and state that the state officials said not to bring food and water because they didn't want people to stay at the superdome, the guilt of those officials is clear. For Blanco to resist help when she so clearly needed it, her guilt is clear. Every death that occured because she withheld food and water, every death that occured because she would not accept help, she has total or partial guilt. Now later, if it is proven that Bush had the authority to invoke the IA on Wednesday afternoon, after things kind of settled down, then I will gladly, happily settle guilt on him, too.

Outrage is appropriate, imo. I am outraged at everyone who didn't do the best they could. And Bush is in there, both with his gutting of FEMA and not invoking IA. Maybe other things. But everyone needs to be accoutable.
I believe Chertoff and Brown did an abysmal job, based on what we know. Bush praised them. I have concerns about that. They're still, as far as I know, in charge, and I worry about that.

 

[Dara]

So--your info re the news trumps my actual expereince riding out hurricanes in said city? And my expoerience with said government of said city? And my actual experince with the criminals in said city? And mya ctual expereince fleeing said city duing previous hurricanes?

hah.

Well, if your experience says they couldn't get troops there until Saturday, possibly. Because I don't believe it could take that long, based on what I've seen and read. I think they could have gotten in days earlier.