Could Bush Have Done More

[Dara]

Damned if he did
Face it, you just want to stir a poop pot.

Untrue.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

There you go! It's possible he couldn't. We have made progress! You will find that more people will want to continue to help hash this out if you are willing to admit that we just don't know that right now.

There is absolutely nothing that I can find showing that the IA has ever been invoked in a natural disaster. Nothing. I've looked, off and on, and found nothing. Hopefully someone will have better luck than me.

The impression I am getting is that it has never been done before. It has never ever had to have been invoked in direct opposition to the governor of a state. And that's why it took some time. Legalities did have to be argued out; Bush could not do something without a clear legal precedence. It is possible that had Bush not been so proactive in trying to find a way to get around Blanco, federal troops would still not be in New Orleans. That's why I'm not outraged YET at the delay for federal troops to show up.

I am outraged at the mayor and governor, because their culpability is clear. For the head of the Red Cross to go on national television and state that the state officials said not to bring food and water because they didn't want people to stay at the superdome, the guilt of those officials is clear. For Blanco to resist help when she so clearly needed it, her guilt is clear. Every death that occured because she withheld food and water, every death that occured because she would not accept help, she has total or partial guilt. Now later, if it is proven that Bush had the authority to invoke the IA on Wednesday afternoon, after things kind of settled down, then I will gladly, happily settle guilt on him, too.

Apparently previous experience using the Superdome as a hurricane shelter was less than great. Accoing to reports now coming out, rapes and murders occured during previous hurricanes, but were largely swept under the carpet. I dodn't see how any of that could be laid at the feet of the feeral government.
The city government's failure to provide for its citizens is notorious. I lived there 10 years and there was never any serious attempt to provide any sort of preparedness in the event of a major hurricane. Everyone was told to fill a bathtub, keep a lot of flashlight batteries, and stockpile canned foods and keep a first aid kit handy. That was about it.

 

[TexMex]

Do we know that Bush deployed anyone? The coast guard never asks permission for a rescue that I am aware of. That is their mission and it is ongoing wherever there is water. The coast guard acts immediately in a dire situation. Sort of like lifeguards, someone is drowning they get their butts out of the chair and move without congressional approval.

The Corps of Engineers has a mandate to act in an emergency to make repairs as expedient as possible. This also does not take congressional approval. Some agencies can react without anyone's approval except the military as far as I can see.

I was one calling for the military in New Orleans almost immediately. I tried to find my post on that but couldn't. Too many of them. But the point was I could see the deterioration of the city almost immediately. If I could see it why couldn't others? I am just a regular person with no training in emergency management, I just happen to know that city.

I cannot understand with a human heart why the governor has to go to committee in an emergency. I am serious about annexing Louisiana into Texas. The salvation of the state should not be in the control of those politicians, whether democrat or republican. They have shown absolutely no responsibility as regards human life.

Hi concerned,

The U.S. Coast Guard is one of five branches of the US Armed Forces and the Army Corps of Engineers is another. I doubt they acted without Bush's knowledge. He's their Commander In Chief!

IMO this was such a huge natural disaster that all levels of government made mistakes. Bureaucracy is frustrating even on a good day much less during a crisis.

Met some more people today from NO--they plan to stay in Houston and find jobs. They put their kids in school this week. They still have shock all over their faces.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

Untrue.

Prove it then.

 

[Dara]

Prove it then.

I've proven it. I can't account for your attack. I've been discussing. I've provided links. I've posted in good faith. I've been attacked on a personal level.

And it happens every time I bring up Bush. Here. In other threads. Happens every time.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

Well, if your experience says they couldn't get troops there until Saturday, possibly. Because I don't believe it could take that long, based on what I've seen and read. I think they could have gotten in days earlier.

You mean before they knew where the hurricane was going?
It hit very early Monday morning.
They started issuing the evacuation notices around Thursday.
It took someone I know 14 hours to make what was normally a 3 hour trip on Friday.

 

[TexMex]

Apparently previous experience using the Superdome as a hurricane shelter was less than great. Accoing to reports now coming out, rapes and murders occured during previous hurricanes, but were largely swept under the carpet. I dodn't see how any of that could be laid at the feet of the feeral government.
The city government's failure to provide for its citizens is notorious. I lived there 10 years and there was never any serious attempt to provide any sort of preparedness in the event of a major hurricane. Everyone was told to fill a bathtub, keep a lot of flashlight batteries, and stockpile canned foods and keep a first aid kit handy. That was about it.

Hi billygoat

Unless you've lived through one it's hard to realize the total destruction.
NO didn't just have a cane...they had the cane AND the flood. Unprecedented
two natural disasters. Even with the best local planning many would die. But
the 'let's hope this one misses too' attitude in NO made things twice as bad.

 

[Dara]

You mean before they knew where the hurricane was going?
It hit very early Monday morning.
They started issuing the evacuation notices around Thursday.
It took someone I know 14 hours to make what was normally a 3 hour trip on Friday.

No, I mean the troops who arrived Saturday. After the hurricane. When Bush reportedly invoked IA and got them there.

 

[concernedperson]

Hi concerned,

The U.S. Coast Guard is one of five branches of the US Armed Forces and the Army Corps of Engineers is another. I doubt they acted without Bush's knowledge. He's their Commander In Chief!

IMO this was such a huge natural disaster that all levels of government made mistakes. Bureaucracy is frustrating even on a good day much less during a crisis.

Met some more people today from NO--they plan to stay in Houston and find jobs. They put their kids in school this week. They still have shock all over their faces.

Do you cry as much as me? I don't think I will ever get over this much less the actual victims. This is a tragedy at all levels.

I just don't want us to back to politics as usual. I want accountability for the people who lost their lives and the people who didn't react in a timely fashion. Too many days went by from the levees breaking to the help that was needed.This is America, we can act faster than that.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

I've proven it. I can't account for your attack. I've been discussing. I've provided links. I've posted in good faith. I've been attacked on a personal level.

And it happens every time I bring up Bush. Here. In other threads. Happens every time.

My "attack" as you so lamely put it is because I have lived in New Orleans and saw this disaster getting ready to happen 20 years ago. I watched the local government pretty much insure it would happen through corruption, graft, ineptitude, and indifference. I left because I did not feel safe in that city, be the threat hurricanes or thugs. You seem pretty much intent on blaming one person for a disaster that had hundreds of architechs, stretching back to the time of FDR. Your frame of reference is so narrow its tunnel vision.

And if you think there's any difference between Bush, Clinton, Gore, or whoever the next candidate may be, you live in a dream world. They're interchangeable. You can pop off their heads and switch them around like barbie dolls and you pretty much get the same performance.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

No, I mean the troops who arrived Saturday. After the hurricane. When Bush reportedly invoked IA and got them there.

Don't ask me, ask the governor.
And see above comments re the logisitics of large troop movements and the supply side needed to keep them in business. And the undamaged roads capable of handling heavy transport vehicles. And the one sizable land route into the city that doesn't involve traveling over bridges and causeways that were destroyed.

 

[Dara]

You seem pretty much intent on blaming one person for a disaster that had hundreds of architechs, stretching back to the time of FDR. Your frame of reference is so narrow its tunnel vision.

So, when I say everyone should be accountable, and I am focusing on just the later days, which is when I think Bush should have gotten troops there and regained order sooner, you think I am blaming him for the whole disaster?

Well, that's an interesting reading. Again, if what you get out of my posts is so different from what I actually write, I can't help you. I cam simply wish you would read what is there and not make such almost amusing but very offbase assumptions.

(psst...Everyone who criticizes Bush for this isn't a Bush hater. Some of them are Republicans)

 

[TexMex]

Do you cry as much as me? I don't think I will ever get over this much less the actual victims. This is a tragedy at all levels.

I just don't want us to back to politics as usual. I want accountability for the people who lost their lives and the people who didn't react in a timely fashion. Too many days went by from the levees breaking to the help that was needed.This is America, we can act faster than that.

The family staying with us cries all day. They lost everything. Joel may have a job lined up in Lafayette and they plan to go check out housing there this weekend. Another couple I met today wants to stay here in the Houston area.

 

[Dara]

Don't ask me, ask the governor. And see above comments re the logisitics of large troop movements and the supply side needed to keep them in business. And the undamaged roads capable of handling heavy transport vehicles. And the one sizable land route into the city that doesn't involve traveling over bridges and causeways that were destroyed.

So, you're saying they couldn't have gotten there before Saturday? I'm just trying to get this clear.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

Hi billygoat

Unless you've lived through one it's hard to realize the total destruction.
NO didn't just have a cane...they had the cane AND the flood. Unprecedented
two natural disasters. Even with the best local planning many would die. But
the 'let's hope this one misses too' attitude in NO made things twice as bad.

I lived through 2 floods in New Orleans, one of which was hurricane related (Juan). I also rode out at least 3 hurricanes/near misses. It was a city of grasshoppers run by grasshoppers, not ants, if you get the Aesop's Fables reference.
I know 30 people in the area. I now know 19 are safe. I was shocked at how many of them (we're talking about educated professionals here) chose to stay and ride it out.

 

[TexMex]

My "attack" as you so lamely put it is because I have lived in New Orleans and saw this disaster getting ready to happen 20 years ago. I watched the local government pretty much insure it would happen through corruption, graft, ineptitude, and indifference. I left because I did not feel safe in that city, be the threat hurricanes or thugs. You seem pretty much intent on blaming one person for a disaster that had hundreds of architechs, stretching back to the time of FDR. Your frame of reference is so narrow its tunnel vision.

And if you think there's any difference between Bush, Clinton, Gore, or whoever the next candidate may be, you live in a dream world. They're interchangeable. You can pop off their heads and switch them around like barbie dolls and you pretty much get the same performance.

Tell it billy.

 

[TexMex]

I lived through 2 floods in New Orleans, one of which was hurricane related (Juan). I also rode out at least 3 hurricanes/near misses. It was a city of grasshoppers run by grasshoppers, not ants, if you get the Aesop's Fables reference.
I know 30 people in the area. I now know 19 are safe. I was shocked at how many of them (we're talking about educated professionals here) chose to stay and ride it out.

I know what you mean.....I've ridden out a couple here. But if a 4 or 5 comes this way---I'm gone. It's just unbelievable the damage they do.

Have many relatives in LA...they tell stories about the corruption at the city, Parish and state levels---bribes, grafting, incompetence...

Hope you hear from the rest of your friends soon...

 

[KrazyKollector]

See above. This post comes directly after several about my "hatred" and several others that are very close to if not over the line to being personal attacks. I am trying to defuse that and because I feel there has been a constant thread of overly personal posts, I prefer to not answer.

In other words, let's not bring up anything the President did right because that's not what this thread wants to fixate upon.

Tex and Billy, I have Advil for when you need it.:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

So, you're saying they couldn't have gotten there before Saturday? I'm just trying to get this clear.

They could have, if they had been requested before hand.
There were already National Guard in NO, btw, before the storm. The governor had the power to call them out. I have no idea how many she mobilized. Possibly just the ones alreay on duty. Most National Guard not already deployed in Iraq are scattered throughout the state 3 weeks out of their month. You could actually see them in the news coverage, helping people get into the Superdome. However, civil authority was still in play for most of last week.
The city did not plan on this level of destruction. The police who were supposed to maintain order were also storm victims, worried about their homes and loved ones. This was something not taken into account for, apparently.
The fact the city ordered people into the Superdome and then did not have the necessary food or fresh water to feed them fo more than two days is beyond comprehension.
The situation was made even worse by the mayor allowing looting to occur, and ordering the police to not open fire on looters. What started as people trying to get fresh water and food turned into well--we know what it turned into.
NOPD started turning in their badges and walking off the job--something else not foreseen by the city leaders.

 

[JBean]

My "attack" as you so lamely put it is because I have lived in New Orleans and saw this disaster getting ready to happen 20 years ago. I watched the local government pretty much insure it would happen through corruption, graft, ineptitude, and indifference. I left because I did not feel safe in that city, be the threat hurricanes or thugs. You seem pretty much intent on blaming one person for a disaster that had hundreds of architechs, stretching back to the time of FDR. Your frame of reference is so narrow its tunnel vision.

And if you think there's any difference between Bush, Clinton, Gore, or whoever the next candidate may be, you live in a dream world. They're interchangeable. You can pop off their heads and switch them around like barbie dolls and you pretty much get the same performance.

BIlly I am so impressed with your information I'm so glad you joined this discussion. I feel like the things i've been reading and seeing are all falling into place. thanks