Could Patsy's Cocktails Have Played A Part In Her Rage Attack?

[BBB167893]

Wow, a bruise on a kid.

I know, Holdon. As I've said myself, kids get into all kinds of trouble. Thing is, you're not considering a few things. One, the number of bruises. Two the location of the bruises. Specifically, they correspond to areas where Patsy was known to grab JB's arm and hold it very firmly. It also corresponds with areas where an abuser might hold her down.

That settles it then, she was abused.

ShesElectric seems to think so. He's not the only one. Most people on this thread would agree with that.

It fits in with all the other abuse evidence,

Now, you're talking!

both before and after an intruder killed her.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't see the humor in a little girl's death.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I know, Holdon. As I've said myself, kids get into all kinds of trouble. Thing is, you're not considering a few things. One, the number of bruises. Two the location of the bruises. Specifically, they correspond to areas where Patsy was known to grab JB's arm and hold it very firmly. It also corresponds with areas where an abuser might hold her down.



ShesElectric seems to think so. He's not the only one. Most people on this thread would agree with that.



Now, you're talking!



You'll have to excuse me if I don't see the humor in a little girl's death.

I'm not joking.

Even if JBR had really been abused in these ways you're imagining, there is still ample evidence that she was murdered by an intruder.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I know, Holdon. As I've said myself, kids get into all kinds of trouble. Thing is, you're not considering a few things. One, the number of bruises. Two the location of the bruises. Specifically, they correspond to areas where Patsy was known to grab JB's arm and hold it very firmly. It also corresponds with areas where an abuser might hold her down.

If the number and location of bruises were truly a valid issue like you believe its a valid issue, it would've been raised at the time by a parent, teacher, or neighbor.

We are not qualified to judge on "One, the number of bruises. Two the location of the bruises" after the fact, when nobody questioned it at the time.

It is frequently the case where RDI uses circular reasoning to arrive at a false conclusion: First JBR is murdered, and now the bruise on her arm is suspected as abuse. It would've been better for RDI if someone suspected abuse prior to the murder. See what I mean?

 

[BBB167893]

I'm not joking.

I had a feeling.

Even if JBR had really been abused in these ways you're imagining, there is still ample evidence that she was murdered by an intruder.

Hmm. That, my friend, is a very interesting premise. No BS. My brother (just as an example) seems to be of that mind.

One thing, though. I'm not too keen on the word "imagining" in this context. It implies I just whip this stuff up in my mind out of nowhere. I can assure you that is not the case. I didn't imagine PR gripping JB's arm in that Christmas morning picture, and neither did the BPD, who broadcast it for five minutes at their presentation.

 

[BBB167893]

If the number and location of bruises were truly a valid issue like you believe its a valid issue, it would've been raised at the time by a parent, teacher, or neighbor.

Holdon, that strikes me as a very dangerous mentality. Plenty of kids are brutalized because someone COULD raise the issue, but just won't. Ever heard of Lisa Steinberg? If you haven't, I suggest you read up.

We are not qualified to judge on "One, the number of bruises. Two the location of the bruises" after the fact, when nobody questioned it at the time.

As we have learned far too often, just because nobody questioned it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Quick show of hands, here, people: how many of us have seen suspected murderers defended by people who say they are "not the type" to do something?

It is frequently the case where RDI uses circular reasoning to arrive at a false conclusion: First JBR is murdered, and now the bruise on her arm is suspected as abuse.

Sadly, Holdon, when you're dealing with murder, since it's already happened, most of the puzzle pieces are going to be of an "after-the-fact" nature. That's just the way it is.

It would've been better for RDI if someone suspected abuse prior to the murder. See what I mean?

Yes, I do. And you're damn right it would have been better. If they HAD suspected it prior to the murder, JB might still be alive. But you cogitate on this:

I read an estimate from the Department of Justice that says for every woman who is raped, some 65% don't report it. Now, if it's that hard to get GROWN women to report rape, think about how hard it must be for a small child to report abuse.

See what I mean?

 

[DeeDee249]

We know that JBR's pediatrician did NOT report any suspicions he may have had (or may have KNOWN about) for whatever his reasons were. He was a golf buddy of JR, and was one of their circle of friends, one of many who were dazzled by their lifestyle and probably one who would not want to risk reporting what he may have suspected.
Keep in mind also, that JBR's school nurse records were sealed and denied to the police by the DA. THAT little fact should be like a beacon for abuse, because I cannot think of a single reason except a coverup of suspected abuse that would justify a DA to deny those records to the very people charged with solving the brutal murder of that child.
So much for reporting the abuse before this happened.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Well, its just amazing how inept and uninformed all those people were. The pediatrician, school nurse, teacher, both parents, brother, neighbors, competitors. None of these people knew how to spot the right number of injuries in the right places.

They didn't know JBR was abused in any way whatsoever.

But virtually every RDI here can spot it in just about every way. I guess they're special experts. Hmmm.

 

[DeeDee249]

Why, thank'ya. Thank'ya very much.

 

[JMO8778]

If the number and location of bruises were truly a valid issue like you believe its a valid issue, it would've been raised at the time by a parent, teacher, or neighbor.

We are not qualified to judge on "One, the number of bruises. Two the location of the bruises" after the fact, when nobody questioned it at the time.

It is frequently the case where RDI uses circular reasoning to arrive at a false conclusion: First JBR is murdered, and now the bruise on her arm is suspected as abuse. It would've been better for RDI if someone suspected abuse prior to the murder. See what I mean?

No.I don't.You've claimed many times that there was no prior evidence of JB ever having been abused,(even in the face of the chronic abuse evidence).Oh,but there is! Not just from that,but also there are the bruises.Coincidence? Think not!
Oh and btw,why would Dr Beuf feel the need to hide JB's medical records,why could Patsy not recall why she called him 3x within 10 mins that Dec.,why was HE on the scene that day,and why did he have Patsy drugged to the max???? He had something to hide,alright.He even colluded with JR to keep Patsy away from the police station and from being q'd that day.

 

[BBB167893]

Well, its just amazing how inept and uninformed all those people were.

Yes, it is. It's even more disheartening to think that in some cases, it might not be ineptitude; it could be willful blindness.

The pediatrician, school nurse, teacher, both parents, brother, neighbors, competitors. None of these people knew how to spot the right number of injuries in the right places.

Sadly, Holdon, that tends to be the rule rather than the exception. Ask Hedda Nusbaum if you don't want to take my word for it.

They didn't know JBR was abused in any way whatsoever.

Denial plays a big role too, I think.

But virtually every RDI here can spot it in just about every way.

Two things, Holdon:

One, you're lumping us all into one monolithic faction. As I told you before, that is not the case.

Two, let me ask you this: have you ever had an experience where you saw or heard something and passed it off, only to have it make sense in the wake of new events? (The Middle Eastern guys taking flying lessons LEAPS to mind. Nobody jumped on that until it was too late, either.) Think about it.

I guess they're special experts. Hmmm.

Oh, well, let's see: first we have the chronic abuse evidence (which you refuse to even acknowledge), now we have bruises in an area where JB was KNOWN to be held by her mother. That's a HELL of a coincidence, wouldn't you say?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Two, let me ask you this: have you ever had an experience where you saw or heard something and passed it off, only to have it make sense in the wake of new events? (The Middle Eastern guys taking flying lessons LEAPS to mind. Nobody jumped on that until it was too late, either.) Think about it.

OK I thought about it. Are you suggesting we should've been more racially biased? After all, you're only probable cause for 'jumping' on that would've been that they're Middle Eastern, right?




Oh, well, let's see: first we have the chronic abuse evidence (which you refuse to even acknowledge), now we have bruises in an area where JB was KNOWN to be held by her mother. That's a HELL of a coincidence, wouldn't you say?

There are some other coincidences that come to my mind first. Like how come it just so happens that there's no other instances of either the cord or the tape being used anywhere else in the house. What about that one

BTW, you have the chronic abuse evidence, not me. Presuming you meant 'we' as in 'us'. All I have is what I read in the paper, watch on TV, or the internet including here at Websleuths. Those sources provide very little basis for the claims.

 

[BBB167893]

OK I thought about it. Are you suggesting we should've been more racially biased? After all, you're only probable cause for 'jumping' on that would've been that they're Middle Eastern, right?

You know, I'm getting REAL tired of having that one thrown at me. We can take this over to the political pavilion, if you'd like.

It's wrong, to boot. And you completely missed my point.

There are some other coincidences that come to my mind first. Like how come it just so happens that there's no other instances of either the cord or the tape being used anywhere else in the house. What about that one

We've been over that.

BTW, you have the chronic abuse evidence, not me.

So I noticed. And I'm very interested in why.

Presuming you meant 'we' as in 'us'.

It's there for anyone who wants it. I don't charge a premium or membership.

All I have is what I read in the paper, watch on TV, or the internet including here at Websleuths.

It shows.

Those sources provide very little basis for the claims.

I'm aware of THAT, too. And as anyone who has followed this case for any length of time knows, you could fill volumes with what the media DOESN'T report in this case. In fact, I AM filling a volume with it.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I'm aware of THAT, too. And as anyone who has followed this case for any length of time knows, you could fill volumes with what the media DOESN'T report in this case. In fact, I AM filling a volume with it.

Maybe consider what the media DOES report, and the ratio between 'chronic abuse' evidence and 'unknown male DNA' evidence!

 

[Tadpole12]

Well, its just amazing how inept and uninformed all those people were. The pediatrician, school nurse, teacher, both parents, brother, neighbors, competitors. None of these people knew how to spot the right number of injuries in the right places.

They didn't know JBR was abused in any way whatsoever.

But virtually every RDI here can spot it in just about every way. I guess they're special experts. Hmmm.

Hi Hotyh. The pediatrition, the school nurse, teacher; it would require a degree of certainty for them to report their suspicion of 'suspected abuse'.

A neighbour, a friend; it would take someone who is not constrained by social graces to even broach the subject.

Gee, Hotyh, so many children are neglected, abused, and it's never reported or recognized. Why not JBR?

Rough play or rough parent? Who's to say? Speculation either way?

IMO

 

[JMO8778]

Maybe consider what the media DOES report, and the ratio between 'chronic abuse' evidence and 'unknown male DNA' evidence!

The DNA can hardly be labeled as irrefutable evidence,considering 1-DNA is transferable,and 2-we don't even know the AGE of the male it is from.It could very well be from someone who was then a child.


IDI COUNTS on making it appear the DNA could *only be from an adult! And that it could have only gotten there via direct contact.Not so.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Hi Hotyh. The pediatrition, the school nurse, teacher; it would require a degree of certainty for them to report their suspicion of 'suspected abuse'.

A neighbour, a friend; it would take someone who is not constrained by social graces to even broach the subject.

Gee, Hotyh, so many children are neglected, abused, and it's never reported or recognized. Why not JBR?

Rough play or rough parent? Who's to say? Speculation either way?

IMO

I believe you're missing the point.

What makes RDI armchair experts superior to all those people who actually knew and had contact with JBR, and did not report signs of abuse "in the right number, and in the right places'??

Are RDI enthusiasts here better than they are? More experienced with abuse? What makes a third party group (us) better able to judge or recognize abuse? On what grounds do we claim JBR's close associates were unable to recognize abuse?

I believe it is because they had no murder to raise suspicion, and RDI uses the murder to raise suspicion of abuse. Circular reasoning at its finest.

Really, those closer to JBR were the ones in position to recognize abuse, while we are not in ANY position to recognize it.

 

[BBB167893]

Maybe consider what the media DOES report, and the ratio between 'chronic abuse' evidence and 'unknown male DNA' evidence!

Perhaps without realizing it, you're making my point, Holdon. Maybe you haven't noticed, but Lin Wood has done his level best to make sure those ratios don't balance out in the media. And you don't have to take my word for that. Our webmistress can tell you firsthand.

 

[BBB167893]

Hi Hotyh. The pediatrition, the school nurse, teacher; it would require a degree of certainty for them to report their suspicion of 'suspected abuse'.

A neighbour, a friend; it would take someone who is not constrained by social graces to even broach the subject.

Gee, Hotyh, so many children are neglected, abused, and it's never reported or recognized. Why not JBR?

Rough play or rough parent? Who's to say? Speculation either way?

IMO

That JUST what I was trying to say in the first place, Tadpole12!

 

[BBB167893]

Tadpole12 can answer at that poster's convenience, but I'd like to get a few words in here, if nobody minds my butting in.

I believe you're missing the point.

It's the point that Tadpole and I are trying to make that's getting lost here, in my opinion.

What makes RDI armchair experts superior to all those people who actually knew and had contact with JBR, and did not report signs of abuse "in the right number, and in the right places'??

It's not a question of being superior, Holdon. It's a question of having to put the pieces together. In truth, I think Tadpole answered you quite well. There are plenty of reasons. And it's not just JB. How many people do you think COULD have prevented a child's murder and did nothing? Ask Hedda Nusbaum if you don't believe me.

Are RDI enthusiasts here better than they are?

More experienced with abuse?

I know an RDI who IS experienced with abuse, Holdon. She knows what it's like. She knows the signs. She knows the damage it does. And she knows that it's damn HARD to get people to notice it and even harder to admit it. If I'm lucky, maybe, just maybe, I can convince her to answer any questions you might have. You may find it interesting.

But just in case I can't pull it off, let me give you a few pointers. Do you know what the average is on this, Holdon? Some estimates say that 90% of child abuse goes undetected. That is staggering. Here's a few words you might want to type into a search engine:

"Child Abuse Accomodation Syndrome." While you do that, if you choose to do so, keep in mind what I said about how hard it is to get adult women to report rape, and how much harder it must be for a little child.

What makes a third party group (us) better able to judge or recognize abuse?

Because we have no personal loyalties to cloud our judgment. How many times have we heard it said that someone is not the type to do something.

On what grounds do we claim JBR's close associates were unable to recognize abuse?

I could give you a really long answer to that, Holdon. I actually talk about it at length in the book. But to give you the compact version, it's a question of personal bias. My best advice to you is to track down a copy of Marilyn Van Derbur's book "Miss America by Day." It tells how Marilyn was molested as a child by her father, and how the whole city of Denver, including her own mother, looked the other way because of the father's standing in the community. Because he "wasn't the type" to do it. Marilyn has commented on this case in the past, Holdon. I think it's pretty clear what she had to say.

I believe it is because they had no murder to raise suspicion,

THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING!

and RDI uses the murder to raise suspicion of abuse. Circular reasoning at its finest.

You can call it circular reasoning, Holdon. You can call it anything you like. But that's usually how it works with abused kids who turn up dead. Read the stats on that sometime if you don't want to take my word for it. Most people don't notice until it's too late.

You keep saying you want "history." And I work like h*** to give it to you.

Really, those closer to JBR were the ones in position to recognize abuse, while we are not in ANY position to recognize it.

Even if I agreed with that, Holdon, just because someone is "in position" to recognize it doesn't mean they will. If there's one thing I can tell you from personal experience, people tend not to see things right under their noses. Some people wouldn't know the truth if it reared up and bit them.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I'll bet justice for JBR probably doesn't require insults and accusations to those nearest to her, as it appears her assailant is not among them. That claim has support in recent media reports which refer to unknown male DNA.

These media reports do not refer to abuse of any kind by anyone close to JBR. What about that?