You are 100% right. The occult, the devil, a religion, none of that played a part in that killing or in the killing of the 3 boys. The occult is just something that is in the background. But it is attractive to some to latch on to. It gives them an easy answer when the answers aren't that easy.
Damien Echols' occult motives
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You are 100% right. The occult, the devil, a religion, none of that played a part in that killing or in the killing of the 3 boys. The occult is just something that is in the background. But it is attractive to some to latch on to. It gives them an easy answer when the answers aren't that easy.
kyleb
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Regardless of your opinion regarding how overt trappings of the occult must be to make since investigating on those lines, it's not like police only investigated people with occult interest by any stretch, nor that Echols was the only person with occult interest investigated for that matter. Surely you know this by now?
I've yet to see anyone make such an absurd argument, and it's certainly not what I'm doing here.
Nonsense. The evidence which connects Echols to the murders is what makes his motives relevant. In much the same way evidence connecting KKK types to murders of black people makes such KKK types religious beliefs relevant, regardless of if there is anything along the line of a burnt cross an the scene of the murders or otherwise.
Cappuccino
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There were no occult trappings present at all, overt or otherwise.
Not all of the WMPD succumbed to satanic panic, any more than all of the local population did. I've watched several interviews with Gary Gitchell, for example, and while he never says it straight out, I get a strong sense that there has always been skepticism in his mind about the satanic motive, although not about the guilt of the wm3.
No, he wasn't the only one with occult interests, or what LE perceived to be occult interests, who was suspected. Which, given the lack of any reason to think the occult had anything to do with this crime at all, is rather odd. Until you realise that Satanic Panic was already present.
I've discussed this case in many different places, and yes there are nons who make that argument.
The evidence is very weak, and the motive is far fetched and not supported by anything about the crime itself.
In a case where the victim is black, that alone is a fact about the crime which would make LE sensible to look at the option of a racial crime, and look at any locals with KKK connections, a history of racism etc. Similarly, where the victims are children and are found naked, that alone is a fact to look at the option of paedophilia as a motive, and look at any locals who have a history of such crimes. When the victims are under 12, that is also a reason to look at parents and step parents as suspects.
Victims under 12, naked or not, is not a reason to go looking for the local Wiccans/Satanists/Hare Krishnas/whatever. Nothing about this crime is a reason to go looking for locals with an interest in the occult.
kyleb
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Have you ever found an analysis of the available evidence which you'd contend reasonably demonstrate this, and if so were can others find whatever you'd consider to be the best example of this? And if not, which souls anyone give such claims any more credence the notion that Ramirez's confession was coerced all the evidence used against him was either fabricated or misinterpreted?
Yet to look into the possibility that the murder of young children might have been motivated by very dark occult beliefs isn't sensible, even though for example the first person Ramirez is known to have killed was a nine year old girl? That seems like a double standard to me.
D
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[snipped by me, respectfully]
PLEASE? Pretty please? In a list?
I'm not sure how Reiki is getting lumped in with occult practices here. I'm strictly on the side of evidence-based medicine, so while I don't even believe in "chi" and "meridians", etc., it wouldn't occur to me that Damien Echols's reiki practice is proof of anything. I have a family member who does "healing touch" - trust me, there's no occult stuff going on, just (imo) wishful thinking.
As for his adolescent interest in Wicca (not Satanism), metal, black clothing... Damien was a troubled kid growing up in lousy circumstances. Wicca and music and poetry and what-all else didn't inform his mindset... his mindset informed his interests. Chicken vs. egg. If he committed these murders, or was party to the murders, it wasn't because of what he read or listened to, imo. Let's not forget there was nothing Wicca-related about the crime scene. Or even occult.
The interview excerpt quoted earlier in this thread really bothers me. Damien isn't rambling on and offering info about the murders, he is answering what has been posed to him, and he is giving hypothetical answers to hypothetical questions. No matter how much the interrogator says "you", Damien sticks to answering it in the hypothetical. Damien was bright enough to give answers beyond "duh, I dunno" and that bit him in the behind. It shouldn't have. There was nothing in those answers that added up to evidence, let alone "occult motive", imo. Of course, if he'd said, "Duh, I dunno" then people would take that as evidence of him being deceptive...
I don't find Echols likeable in the least. I doubt I could stand two minutes in the same room with him. But the fact that he's got an unsympathetic character and had some dumb interests and was a very troubled kid and now shills Reiki... don't mean squat when it comes to convicting him of these murders with an "occult motive". :twocents: Let alone the fact that reiki is a healing art, so if anything it's evidence of his interest (however misguided) in helping others.
p.s. maybe it would be helpful to link to some info about Wicca?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcra.htm
kyleb
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You could always make you're own list, and if you ever care to the evidence presented on WM3 Truth's The Case Against the WM3 would get you a long way towards accomplishing that goal. Unfortunately, all the supporters I've found across react to that website like a cat to water, and not have even come to producing anywhere near as comprehensive analysis of the evidence to make the case for reasonable doubt.
Do you have anything to say about about Echols' interest in demonology, described in this Individual Progress Note from around five months before the murders? Or what about the notion that drinking blood gives him power also described in that document, and which motivated his attack on a fellow inmate when he was at Craighead County Juvenile Detention Center around eight months prior to the murders? I mean Echols' interest in Wicca is one thing, but Wicca doesn't come anywhere close to describing Echols' far darker beliefs.
Not in the parts I quoted he isn't, he's giving information regarding his beliefs, including the belief that the murders could have been "a satanic act", and that that when people kill it "gives them power" and also that "the younger of the victims would be more innocent and in turn more power would be given the person doing the killing", beliefs which hold no place in Wicca. There are other parts of the interview notes which do report Echols giving accurate information about the murders and he dismisses that as details he was lead into agreeing with and just rumors he repeated, but that is rather all off the topic of this thread.
[Snipped, respectfully]
Just wanted to add my two cents, although I also tend to believe these practices to be wishful thinking, there is scientific evidence to suggest they are in fact beneficial, both mentally and physically.
Evidence Supports Health Benefits of 'Mindfulness-Based Practices'
There are many more articles like this available.
D
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I'm asking for the list from any people/persons here who are familiar enough with the case against the three to present it here. A summary. Sometimes that's helpful, especially on a large board where we have some participants who are steeped in a case and others who aren't. I am in the latter category. If this topic is all "go fish", then so be it. No harm in asking.
I'll read that again, thanks for the links. (See? I'm actually asking for info.) I admittedly don't have as much time to delve into all the sites and documents as others do, and it's been a while since I read on this case, so when someone can pinpoint a particular document or piece of info in regards to a specific point, that's helpful and I'm thankful. So thank you.
Out of curiosity, was there any evidence re: blood drinking? Did Misskelley mention blood drinking in his descriptions of the crime? Or any connection to demonology at the crime scene, or the occult? Or anything beyond Echols's answers to hypotheticals? What I'm interested in is this crime, not how unlikeable Echols is, or his mental troubles, or how hard I can roll my eyes at his angsty adolescent horsepucky. If this thread is about an occult motive, then I'm looking for how the occult relates to the crime.
MMV. Like I said, I read it as him answering hypotheticals about a murder in the hypothetical. When I say what I think happened to Jimmy Hoffa, I'm not saying those are the actions *I* believe in or act on, I'm saying what I think someone else could have done, putting myself in their shoes. If Echols had read up on demonology and other occult topics, then sure it could have been a framework for what he thinks a murderer might think, because that's a frame of reference. But that doesn't mean it's what he did or would do. It might if there were any evidence of it being an occult killing.
Like I said, I will read the progress note and the attack at Craighead. Thx.
D
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Thanks for that link, gheckso. I tend to think it's psycho-somatic - if you believe someone is helping you, you'll (temporarily) feel better, though the underlying issue isn't really addressed or cured. Guess it's a topic for another thread...
Compassionate Reader
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And you see what the response was.
With this I agree 100%! In this country, we are supposed to have religious freedom, and that means freedom of religion or freedom to practice religion however we want - not freedom from religion as many now want to insist. I'm not sure that Reiki is a religion, but it's a spiritual path for some, Damien included.
I have tried repeatedly to stress this idea. Having taught teenagers for 25 years, I know from firsthand experience, not from reading books or websites, how they behave and how nonconformist many of them want to be! As has been stressed repeatedly, the climate of the times was very much a part of why he and Jason and Jessie were falsely convicted.
Unfortunately, there are many people who would not be convinced by a video tape of someone else committing the murders. They are so invested in the guilt of Damien, Jason and Jessie that they won't see the truth of the matter. Sad, but true!
Some may find this shocking, but I'm not a big fan of Damien, either. I think that he is still making some unwise choices, as he did as a teenager. But, as you said, that has nothing whatsoever to do with these murders. Damien and his friends are innocent, and the attempts to link the murders to the occult are ridiculous!
Yes. My own. I don't need someone else to tell me there was scant evidence against Echols or the others. There is nothing else beyond a purported confession, statements that have been recanted and statements that the efficacy of I question. If you have other evidence(not links to sites), please let me know. Otherwise, I will take it that there is no other evidence that you can point too, in which case, it is weak evidence.
Again, another example of why you don't speak to the police without seeking the advice of a lawyer first. I know it's not cheap, but there are clinics out there and some good lawyers out there will answer a question or 2 over the phone.
Unfortunately you left out the part about not referring to another site. The evidence is so scant it really wouldn't take you long. Girl's club witnesses, jailhouse snitch, false confession. See, not that long.
They were hypothetical answers to hypothetical questions. He was playing amateur profiler. The better answer would have been not to answer because frankly, I suspect no matter what he said, something would have been found to use against him.
I am under the impression from the documents I read at Callihans that the idea of demon worship came from Echols own mother. She is the one who told the doctors when he was committed and acting homicidal about those facts. He was interested in it for sure.
And to add, that his friends interviews also talked about it. So, it came from Mr. Echols himself.
And to add, that his friends interviews also talked about it. So, it came from Mr. Echols himself.
kyleb
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Not a problem in the slightest. I'm always glad to provide information to whoever is interested, regarding this topic or any other. That said, I don't see any point in reinventing the wheel, which is why when asked for a comprehensive overview of the evidence I direct people to WM3 Truth's The Case Against the WM3, as that provides by far the most thorough overview of the evidence I've found. Of course I understand that many have more pressing concerns than to read that analysis, but I contend that any attempt to distill such an overview of the evidence notably further would be an injustice to the three boys who were murdered and those who've survive them, as is arguing that those who were convicted of the murders are innocent without having taken the time to consider a compressive analysis of evidence to the contrary.
As for Misskelley mentioning Echols drinking blood during the murders, yes there is at least one instance in Misskelley's sixth documented confession (audio here) in which Misskelley is asked and answers:
Of course throughout Misskelley's many confessions he described himself has having been focused on beating Michel Moore and chasing him down and dragging him back when he got loose, and and of having been very drunk at the time. So it can't rightly be expected to have witnessed everything that the other two did, let alone remember all the details he did observe. But yeah, there is at least that one mention in Misskelley's many confessions of Echols tasting blood from one of the victims in the course of the murders, and perhaps others which I don't recall of hand.
Understanding motive often requires looking into the history of the perpetrator rather than focusing on what can be derived from the scene of the crime itself. For example, one can't rightly expect to find spray-painted gang signs or such around every gang related crime, but when one does find evidence which implicates a person with a history of gang activity it would be foolish to ignore that history when examining the issue of motive. In that regard, here's an Medical Record Report from when Echols' was admitted to St. Vincent Hospital in Oregon shortly before he violated his probation by returning to West Memphis and wound up interned at Craighead:
Of course that Individual Progress Note a few months later which I provided previously reports "He denies that he is satanic, seeing himself more as being involved in demonology", but that's a flagrant example of splitting hairs, and is evidence of far less benign beliefs than the interest in Wicca which Echols' has publicly acknowledged. Also, beyond the matter of Echols' occult beliefs, there's this Physician's Progress Record from the day he was released from St. Vincent:
I bring that up because it further demonstrates Echols' parents concerns in the months leading up to the murders, which stand in stark contradiction as to what they and him have said since the murders, as can be seen for example in the clips from the first Paradise Lost compiled here. I hope the contrast between what was documented before the murders and what has been said in many popular accounts since the murders might help you see the folly of taking claims regarding this case at face value, claims that Echols was simply another angst filled teenager who liked to wear black and practice Wicca being one of many examples where popular belief stands in contraction to documented fact in this case.
I saw CR's attempt to impose arbitrary restrictions on how evidence can be presented, I just don't have any interest in humoring any such restrictions, nor in humoring your pitifully partial and vague accounting of the evidence against the convicted. Again, I'd be delighted if you or anyone else could say "here one can find a more comprehensive analysis of the evidence than what WM3 truth provides, and it refutes their conclusions" and then link me to a website containing such, or perhaps recommend a book or document I've yet to find. Absent that I'm going to keep referring to The Case Against the WM3 at WM3 Truth when asked for a comprehensive overview of the available evidence, regardless of how much people like yourself and CR prefer I'd not.
claudicici
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kyleb
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The answer to your first question is the fact that that those are the lyrics he chose to write down to the exclusion of the many other things he could've chosen to write at that moment, taken in the context of all the evidence which lead to him being convicted of the murders and that which has come out supporting his conviction since then. As for the answer to your section question, see all the documented examples of Echols' long-standing inability to distinguish between fantasy from reality posted throughout this thread for starters.
Cappuccino
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Ramirez wasn't motivated to kill anyone by occult beliefs. I've pointed that out repeatedly, so no double standard on my part.
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