Damien Echols' occult motives

If you were to go through my library.
Wow! People still have 'libraries'? My faith in the human race and the future is restored. Too often I did home visits when teaching and found that so many households had NO bookshelves at all - just racks of videos!!

Sorry for flippant interruption....
 
The answer to your first question is the fact that that those are the lyrics he chose to write down to the exclusion of the many other things he could've chosen to write at that moment, taken in the context of all the evidence which lead to him being convicted of the murders and that which has come out supporting his conviction since then. As for the answer to your section question, see all the documented examples of Echols' long-standing inability to distinguish between fantasy from reality posted throughout this thread for starters.

He also wrote Megadeth lyrics "and Satan reared his ugly head and spit into the wind" and drew a christian cross on that same note you are referring to.
I don't see anything that would suggest DE has problems "distinguishing between fantasy from reality" on this thread or anywhere else?
 
I'm guessing this will outrage some attorney's.

Yes, though that situation, after a brief glimpse, is a bit different. I haven't read the actual opinion yet, so I could be off on this, but in that case it looks like it couldn't have been used against him if he simply asserted his rights. In other words, it took an affirmative exercise of the rights instead of simply not answering. Another factor, it appears, is the fact that the defendant did answer some questions and then just wouldn't answer others. So he created a situation where he waived his rights by answering and then never affirmatively asserted them.
 
I saw CR's attempt to impose arbitrary restrictions on how evidence can be presented, I just don't have any interest in humoring any such restrictions, nor in humoring your pitifully partial and vague accounting of the evidence against the convicted. Again, I'd be delighted if you or anyone else could say "here one can find a more comprehensive analysis of the evidence than what WM3 truth provides, and it refutes their conclusions" and then link me to a website containing such, or perhaps recommend a book or document I've yet to find. Absent that I'm going to keep referring to The Case Against the WM3 at WM3 Truth when asked for a comprehensive overview of the available evidence, regardless of how much people like yourself and CR prefer I'd not.

My partial and vague accounting of the evidence is still more than you have ever put forward. If you choose to not engage in discussion concerning the evidence and instead just constantly refer to some site, that is your perogative. Personally, I think you have enough knowledge to contribute to any discussion with your own personal analysis instead of regurgitating someone else's opinion (even if I or others don't agree with it) but if you don't want to, that is your choice.
 
He also wrote Megadeth lyrics "and Satan reared his ugly head and spit into the wind" and drew a christian cross on that same note you are referring to.
I don't see anything that would suggest DE has problems "distinguishing between fantasy from reality" on this thread or anywhere else?

I agree. This is beyond silly suggesting that writing son lyrics, no matter how dark, had one thing to do with these murders. I don't even care if he made up his own lyrics and wrote them. We have officially entered Griffisland.
 
We entered Griffisland at the point where KyleB stated that the victims being young children was a good enough reason to suspect occult motives. *cue Twilight Zone music*
 
Wow! People still have 'libraries'? My faith in the human race and the future is restored. Too often I did home visits when teaching and found that so many households had NO bookshelves at all - just racks of videos!!

Sorry for flippant interruption....

BBM

That's very, very sad. :(

To bring this around to topic, I was struck by a snippet including the latest doc about the 3, where one of the parents talked about how they didn't want him playing with their kids anymore because he drew pictures and there were words in... LATIN! The look of horror on her face when she said Latin made my heart sink. I guess she didn't own a dictionary, or ever go to a doctor or lawyer. It brought home to me the sad environment those kids were growing up in. Instead of engaging the kid and maybe redirecting some of that intellectual curiosity, it was just... revulsion. And the more you shame a kid and push them away...
 
Thanks for that link, gheckso. I tend to think it's psycho-somatic - if you believe someone is helping you, you'll (temporarily) feel better, though the underlying issue isn't really addressed or cured. Guess it's a topic for another thread... :)
'Placebo effect' and well documented over time. Hence the use of doube blind trials.

To readers here, in general, not directed at HawksGirl:- No way is Reiki a 'religion'. If it were then so too would X-ray machines and we would be back in the culture and climate of primitive peope who fear and hate having their phtograph taken on the grounds that it might 'steal' their souls. I emphasis the word 'primitive' here.

We all accept that electricity exists and can be both generated, harnessed and used - however we never 'see' it - just the effects it has!
 
BBM

That's very, very sad. :(

To bring this around to topic, I was struck by a snippet including the latest doc about the 3, where one of the parents talked about how they didn't want him playing with their kids anymore because he drew pictures and there were words in... LATIN! The look of horror on her face when she said Latin made my heart sink. I guess she didn't own a dictionary, or ever go to a doctor or lawyer. It brought home to me the sad environment those kids were growing up in. Instead of engaging the kid and maybe redirecting some of that intellectual curiosity, it was just... revulsion. And the more you shame a kid and push them away...
It most problably looked like Greek to her! :truce: Pathetic pun I know, but could not resist!!

Whilst it is great that the less able kids get special help in mainstream education, it is very rare, on the whole, for those at the other end of the bell curve to have their 'special needs' catered for. Echols was an extremely bright kid who should have been stretched as much as possible. The combination of boredom and alienation just aggravated his situation. I guess writing down Floyd lyrics or Shakespeare quotes are damning indeed in the Bible Belt!

In my view, the whole investigation became, after the initial flurry of effort, 'suspect driven' rather than 'evidence led'. Aside, of course, from the detour around the Kershaw knife and JMB.
 
Okay, I went to the Craighead incident report and the individual progress note (thank you to KyleB for the links).

My mileage still varies greatly on this point re: occult motive for those murders, or Damien's history linking him directly to this crime. In the Craighead incident I don't see an occult-driven behavior, I see a disturbing outlash and loss of control, quite possibly from failure to keep the medication schedule (as he says) or maybe even not on the right meds to begin with. Finding the right diagnosis, meds and dosages takes time and there can be some error along the way, so I'm not criticizing the doctors, btw.

The individual progress note is interesting on many levels, imo. Damien maintains a distinction between Satanism and demonology. Whether or not someone else thinks that's splitting hairs, to Damien that was an important distinction and he wanted to remain clear on that. As for the spirit inhabiting his body and giving him power, and other stuff about rituals related to his demonology interest... that comes across as a fantasy-prone, adolescent reaction to the power issues that he admits to, and that imo are a result from the childhood trauma, mixed with his outcast status. I'm more concerned with the amount of dissociation and the "missing" childhood memories. That could be some major trauma - has he talked at all about childhood-related PTSD, then or now? Did he open up later about the abuse?

He doesn't remember how he learned to do the blood-drinking behavior, but he started around age 10. 10 is still an imaginative age (he sounds pretty imaginative overall) but I don't think that's of an age where someone can rightly be considered to adopt a belief system, like becoming a demon-worshipper or vampire (his description of the blood-drinking with a sexual partner or "ruling"? partner sounds more like he's included a bit of vampirism in his fantasy, which actually wouldn't surprise me if he did meet up with other teenagers interested in this stuff - that whole licking a cut and exchanging power hooey is something some teenagers dabble in, hell some adults believe in it).

My point being that whatever triggered him around age 10 or earlier, all this other fantasy about demons and spirits and power is an outgrowth of that, an emotional coping mechanism. Interest in demons and blood and power isn't what drives his behavior, his trauma and emotional imbalance drives that interest. If that makes sense.

The incident at Craighead is telling, to me. That attack on the bleeding kid wasn't part of a ritual, hell it didn't even follow his own criteria of a sexual partner or ruling partner for gaining power - it was a violent outburst. So my bottom line is that if these documents show anything to me about Damien as the possible killer, it would be as an act of spontaneous violence and rage, not an occult killing.

But of course then we have to ask, "Okay, Damien is capable of attacking someone. What evidence related to the actual murders points to him as the killer (along with the other two), as opposed to another person with violent issues?" Damien was surely not the only unbalanced person in West Memphis or environs. There has to be something to draw the connection between "Damien is ill" and "Damien committed these murders".

Interesting that Misskelley included the bit about Damien licking a bit of blood. Did Misskelley see this behavior before, I wonder, or did Damien talk about it?

In any case, as related to the topic of this thread, I don't see an occult motive. Many other people's mileage varies. I acknowledge that. Thank you again for providing those documents, they were enlightening. Also, i was trying to stuff a lot of thoughts into this post, so if something (or all of it!) isn't clear let me know and I will try to re-phrase. Thx.
 
Of course that Individual Progress Note a few months later which I provided previously reports "He denies that he is satanic, seeing himself more as being involved in demonology", but that's a flagrant example of splitting hairs, and is evidence of far less benign beliefs than the interest in Wicca which Echols' has publicly acknowledged. Also, beyond the matter of Echols' occult beliefs, there's this Physician's Progress Record from the day he was released from St. Vincent:


snipped by me, respectfully

My question for the parents' assertion that Damien was into Satan worship and kept related articles is a) would they know the difference between Satan worship and, say, Wicca or something else; and b) what were those articles they referred to?
Without trying to sound snarky or disrespectful to his parents and their situation, I question how knowledgeable they would be on this topic, as opposed to seeing stuff that's "out there" (to them) and not Christian, and panicking. I am also not surprised they were afraid to have him back at the house... but was that because of a Satanic ritual, or because of his emotional issues and aggression?
 
Okay, I went to the Craighead incident report and the individual progress note (thank you to KyleB for the links).

My mileage still varies greatly on this point re: occult motive for those murders, or Damien's history linking him directly to this crime. In the Craighead incident I don't see an occult-driven behavior, I see a disturbing outlash and loss of control, quite possibly from failure to keep the medication schedule (as he says) or maybe even not on the right meds to begin with. Finding the right diagnosis, meds and dosages takes time and there can be some error along the way, so I'm not criticizing the doctors, btw.

The individual progress note is interesting on many levels, imo. Damien maintains a distinction between Satanism and demonology. Whether or not someone else thinks that's splitting hairs, to Damien that was an important distinction and he wanted to remain clear on that. As for the spirit inhabiting his body and giving him power, and other stuff about rituals related to his demonology interest... that comes across as a fantasy-prone, adolescent reaction to the power issues that he admits to, and that imo are a result from the childhood trauma, mixed with his outcast status. I'm more concerned with the amount of dissociation and the "missing" childhood memories. That could be some major trauma - has he talked at all about childhood-related PTSD, then or now? Did he open up later about the abuse?

He doesn't remember how he learned to do the blood-drinking behavior, but he started around age 10. 10 is still an imaginative age (he sounds pretty imaginative overall) but I don't think that's of an age where someone can rightly be considered to adopt a belief system, like becoming a demon-worshipper or vampire (his description of the blood-drinking with a sexual partner or "ruling"? partner sounds more like he's included a bit of vampirism in his fantasy, which actually wouldn't surprise me if he did meet up with other teenagers interested in this stuff - that whole licking a cut and exchanging power hooey is something some teenagers dabble in, hell some adults believe in it).

My point being that whatever triggered him around age 10 or earlier, all this other fantasy about demons and spirits and power is an outgrowth of that, an emotional coping mechanism. Interest in demons and blood and power isn't what drives his behavior, his trauma and emotional imbalance drives that interest. If that makes sense.

The incident at Craighead is telling, to me. That attack on the bleeding kid wasn't part of a ritual, hell it didn't even follow his own criteria of a sexual partner or ruling partner for gaining power - it was a violent outburst. So my bottom line is that if these documents show anything to me about Damien as the possible killer, it would be as an act of spontaneous violence and rage, not an occult killing.

But of course then we have to ask, "Okay, Damien is capable of attacking someone. What evidence related to the actual murders points to him as the killer (along with the other two), as opposed to another person with violent issues?" Damien was surely not the only unbalanced person in West Memphis or environs. There has to be something to draw the connection between "Damien is ill" and "Damien committed these murders".

Interesting that Misskelley included the bit about Damien licking a bit of blood. Did Misskelley see this behavior before, I wonder, or did Damien talk about it?

In any case, as related to the topic of this thread, I don't see an occult motive. Many other people's mileage varies. I acknowledge that. Thank you again for providing those documents, they were enlightening. Also, i was trying to stuff a lot of thoughts into this post, so if something (or all of it!) isn't clear let me know and I will try to re-phrase. Thx.

Thank you for that post. Hitting the button wasn't enough. The bolded paragraph, for me, is ultimately the issue in my opinion.
 
Yup. That bolded paragraph cuts through the red herrings and sums up the issue in a nutshell.
 
Ramirez wasn't motivated to kill anyone by occult beliefs. I've pointed that out repeatedly, so no double standard on my part.
Well sure you gave me your opinion on that, but it was after you acknowledged "occult trappings" in the murders Ramirez committed, and went on to assert "He drew a pentagram at one of the crime scenes." Only then did you go on to insist Ramirez's very dark occult beliefs played no part in his motives. So how is that you insist cases where victims being black alone make it "sensible to look at the option of a racial crime", yet even when you have a pentagram at the scene of the crimes you exclude occult motivation? As for your Twilight Zone quip, you're certainly there if you imagine I'm in agreement with Griffis in anything beyond the most vague of senses.

I don't see anything that would suggest DE has problems "distinguishing between fantasy from reality" on this thread or anywhere else?
Well for starters: do you honestly not see anything fanciful about the notion that drinking blood gives one power, or that one can be inhabited by a spirit and communicate with demons through rituals, as were Echols' beliefs documented in the Individual Progress Report I quoted early in this thread and have linked and referenced multiple times in this since? Does no supporter see anything fanciful in any of that?

Also Claudicici, which of the various works on Ramirez's life story would you suggest is the most worthy of reading?

'No way is Reiki a 'religion'. If it were then so too would X-ray machines
Of course Reiki is not a relegion, but X-ray machines produce variable results, Reiki does not. Since I see you are British, I'll quote a summery of various rulings from the The British Advertising Standards Authority:

  • In 2001, the ASA concluded that the International Reiki and Healing Centre had made unsubstantiated claims about "healing" serious diseases and that a "Doctor of Philosophy in Alternative Medicine" certificate from an Indian school did not entitle the proprietor (Allan Sweeney) to refer to himself as "Dr. Sweeney." [9]
  • In 2011, the ASA objected to unsubstantiated claims on Sweeney's Web site that reiki was an effective therapy for cancer, ADHD, back pain, migraine, depression, anger, low energy, sleeplessness, ADD, sadness, bereavement, tinnitus and sciatica [10].
  • In 2011, the ASA objected to unsubstantiated claims by "reiki master" Christina Moore of East Sussex, England, that reiki could treat grief, insomnia, tinnitus, lack of confidence, back pain, constipation, Candida, skin disorders, anxiety, stress, tension, worry and phobias [11].
See the link and the sources cited there for far more details on the matter. Given that, what variable results do you suppose Reiki ever produced to vindicate your comparison to the well establish science of X-ray machines?

and we would be back in the culture and climate of primitive peope who fear and hate having their phtograph taken on the grounds that it might 'steal' their souls.
Primitive people believed in all sorts of mumbo jumbo similar to Reiki and the many other forms of far darker nonsense Echols was into. And speaking people who believe in primitive nonsense of souls being stolen, one only has to look at Echols' letters to Gloria Shettles to find an example of that:

I found out my son was born. The Spirits wont leave me alone. They surround me constantly. I think the baby stole my soul.

And another:

I think the baby stole my soul. Oh well, I don't guess I need it anyway. Halloween gets closer everyday. this is your last chance WAKE UP
Had you not bothered to read these before, or did that something you alluded to previously tell you to disregard them, and is that something perhaps the same "higher emotional truth" which Berlinger speaks of?
 
Well sure you gave me your opinion on that, but it was after you acknowledged "occult trappings" in the murders Ramirez committed, and went on to assert "He drew a pentagram at one of the crime scenes." Only then did you go on to insist Ramirez's very dark occult beliefs played no part in his motives. So how is that you insist cases where victims being black alone make it "sensible to look at the option of a racial crime", yet even when you have a pentagram at the scene of the crimes you exclude occult motivation?

Snipped and BBM, respectfully.

Sorry to jump in, but this touches on something I've been trying to articulate re: motive. The fact that a victim is black does not alone flag the crime as a possible hate crime. It's the circumstances and evidence. Sorry if this is too graphic, but a black person let's say found dragged behind a car, or hung, or with racial slurs on or around the body (for instance) would flag it. But there are other murders which point to family, associates, wrong-place-wrong-time, etc. in which case that's where LE looks. If there happen to be racists or white supremacists in the area that's not enough alone for LE to think "hate crime".

Likewise, an occult killing. What about the West Memphis murders says "occult" other than the fact that a kid who was interested in the occult lived nearby?
 
Well sure you gave me your opinion on that, but it was after you acknowledged "occult trappings" in the murders Ramirez committed, and went on to assert "He drew a pentagram at one of the crime scenes." Only then did you go on to insist Ramirez's very dark occult beliefs played no part in his motives. So how is that you insist cases where victims being black alone make it "sensible to look at the option of a racial crime", yet even when you have a pentagram at the scene of the crimes you exclude occult motivation? As for your Twilight Zone quip, you're certainly there if you imagine I'm in agreement with Griffis in anything beyond the most vague of senses.

There is a distinction between "Satanic murders" as Dale Griffis understands them, and real killings which have included occult symbolism. The underground conspiracy of Satanic cults sacrificing children to Beelzebub doesn't exist outside Griffis' rather childish head. The individual psychopath who stages the crime scene for maximum horror does exist, and sometimes uses pentagrams, upside down crosses and the like to that end. Ramirez is the example I used of that type, purely because I recently read that he drew a pentagram at one of his crime scenes.

Now, could you explain to me what about this crime would reasonably make the investigating officers look at it and think, "question all the local Satanists" ?
 
Snipped and BBM, respectfully.

Sorry to jump in, but this touches on something I've been trying to articulate re: motive. The fact that a victim is black does not alone flag the crime as a possible hate crime. It's the circumstances and evidence. Sorry if this is too graphic, but a black person let's say found dragged behind a car, or hung, or with racial slurs on or around the body (for instance) would flag it. But there are other murders which point to family, associates, wrong-place-wrong-time, etc. in which case that's where LE looks. If there happen to be racists or white supremacists in the area that's not enough alone for LE to think "hate crime".

Likewise, an occult killing. What about the West Memphis murders says "occult" other than the fact that a kid who was interested in the occult lived nearby?

Well said. I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts on what evidence there was of the occult without mentioning Damien, Jason or Jessie.
 
Sorry to jump in, but this touches on something I've been trying to articulate re: motive. The fact that a victim is black does not alone flag the crime as a possible hate crime.
I don't mind you jumping in at all, but you're jumping at the wrong person with your assertion there, as I agree with you to the extent of what I've quoted from you and have never suggested otherwise, but rather have simply referred back to what Cappuccino argued previously:

In a case where the victim is black, that alone is a fact about the crime which would make LE sensible to look at the option of a racial crime, and look at any locals with KKK connections, a history of racism etc.
Were I to agree with Cappuccino on this, then I'd also figure that the murder of young children alone is enough to "make LE sensible to look at the option" of very dark occult murders, since for example the first person Richard Ramirez is known to have murdered was a nine year old girl. But again, I'd not make any such superficial assumptions myself though, neither regarding occult motives nor bigoted ones.

As for what evidence found at the scene of the murders suggests occult motives, nothing overt by any reasonable analysis, and arguably nothing at all. However, some investigators at the time considered things like the fact that the boys were stripped naked and bound, their anuses were dilated, and one was castrated and degloved to suggest there might've been occult motivations behind the murders. Based on such speculation, Echols and at least two other people with notable interest in the occult were questioned, as were many other people who had no interest in the occult at all but were considered potential suspects for other reasons, including murders and pedophiles with far darker histories than Echols.

It seems to me what you're actually looking for the evidence which lead to Echols' arrest, and the short story on that starts four days after the murders when Narlene Hollingsworth reported seeing Echols very near to the scene of the murders "muddy all over", which Tabitha and Anthony Hollingsworth later confirmed. Then William Winford Jones reported Echols' having drunkenly confessed to him, which lead to questioning of people Echols associated with and in turn Misskelley's initial confession which promoted the arrests for Baldwin and Echols. The story of the evidence goes on from there, with lots of twists and turns like Jones shortly before the trials saying he invented the story about Echols for example, but it's a long story and rather off topic in this thread.
 
On the day after the bodies of the three boys were found I had a conversation with Steve Jones, a Juvenile Officer for Crittenden County, Arkansas. In our conversation I found that Steve and I shared the same opinion that the murders appeared to have overtones of a cult sacrifice.

During our conversation Steve mentioned that of all the people known by him to be involved in cult type activities one person stood out in his mind, that in his opinion, was capable of being involved in this type of crime. That person was Damien Echols. Steve stated that Damien lived at 2706 South Grove in Broadway Trailer park in West Memphis, Arkansas. On this day, the day after the bodies were found, I asked Steve if he would meet me at Damien's residence in order to interview Damien.

In fact the day after the bodies were discovered I went to 2706 South Grove and meet with Steve Jones whereas we talked to Pamela and Eddie Hutcheson the mother and step-father of Damien. Neither Pamela or Eddie objected to our talking to Damien. On this day, with Pamela and Eddie's permission, we talked to Damien in his bed room and on this day I took a Polaroid of Damien Echols. At this time I observed Damien to have a tattoo on his chest of a five pointed star or pentagram and as best I remember one other tattoo on his shoulder or arm. I am unsure of the nature of this tattoo.

[signed] Lt. James Sudbury.

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/desud.html

To me, this record in many ways summarizes a lot of the problems with this investigation. First, they solved the crime within 24 hours despite having interviewed next to nobody. Second, you already have the determination made that it was a cult sacrifice. Third, they already determined Damien as the ONLY person capable of this type of crime(no list of 3 people here). Fourth, you have them focusing on Damien because of his appearance as can be seen by their concern for what type of tattoos he had.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
132
Guests online
579
Total visitors
711

Forum statistics

Threads
626,031
Messages
18,516,044
Members
240,897
Latest member
crime belarby
Back
Top