Damien Echols' occult motives

  • #141
The quotes in my signature are there because I consider them insightful and relevant to the discussion at hand, and the source of such statements are irrelevant to me beyond the extent of giving credit where credit is due. As for Jackson, I've never been a fan of his, or pop in general for that matter, and the only album of his I ever owned from him was a gift from someone who barely knew me. That said, find your tendency to accuse various facts of jumping out at you very interesting, since in reality such facts are inanimate things so it's obviously you who has chosen to jump on them.

Well, I owned more than one. I wasn't criticizing the quotes. I simply made mention of having found it interesting. And yes, I do believe I remember an English teacher in high school telling me that inanimate objects cannot act. I don't believe her.
 
  • #142
Standing above the crowd,
He had a voice so strong and loud and I
Swallowed his facade cuz I'm so
Eager to identify with
Someone above the ground,
Someone who seemed to feel the same,
Someone prepared to lead the way, with
Someone who would die for me

Talking about Fogelman? I'm telling ya, I'm bad with interpreting song lyrics.
 
  • #143
ahem,no sorry,I don't really like Echols.I think he's got a overblown ego,is a bit of a narcissist,i wouldn't want to hang out with him and I definitely would not want him "to die for me" or see him as some sort of irresistible savior.As a matter of fact,I always said he theoretically could be guilty if anyone would come up with actual evidence.
That said,I still feel horrible he had to spend all that time in prison for something I believe he did not do.
I actually think the ones that think he's guilty are the ones that have a strange obsession with him,making him out to be someone that can influence people like Jason ,who still is the nicest person I could ever think of,even after all he's been through......
to me Damien really was just an average Metal head using the dark side for security and coping,nothing more ,nothing less....no demonic super powers.....
 
  • #144
I was referring to the lyrics in the sense that you seem "eager to identify with" Echols in how you describe his interests in the occult as comparable to those of your own youth, and seem to have seen Echols as "someone who would die for" you in the sense that you're of the opinion that he was sentenced to death simply for having such interests. That said, it seems Baldwin is the one "standing above the crowd" for you, and that alone is enough evidence to cast the whole case against the three in doubt, leaving you with no reason to even no reason to even acknowledge what evidence was presented against the three at the trials, let alone what has come out since then, eh?
 
  • #145
I was referring to the lyrics in the sense that you seem "eager to identify with" Echols in how you describe his interests in the occult as comparable to those of your own youth, and seem to have seen Echols as "someone who would die for" you in the sense that you're of the opinion that he was sentenced to death simply for having such interests. That said, it seems Baldwin is the one "standing above the crowd" for you, and that alone is enough evidence to cast the whole case against the three in doubt, leaving you with no reason to even no reason to even acknowledge what evidence was presented against the three at the trials, let alone what has come out since then, eh?

I think I understand what you mean now and you're partially right.Yes,it makes me very mad when notebook pages that look almost exactly like mine looked,with the same lyrics and doodles are brought up in a trial as evidence of something as horribly sinister as child murder.Yes,it upsets me when there is a thread about Echol's "occult motives" for a crime that I fail to connect with anything "occult".These babies were brutally beaten and hogtied like slaughterhouse animals ,I don't see anything ritualistic about that.
If carafe's with the boys blood were found at Damians house for example then I would understand a threat about his occult motives.
For example I'm a mom and it's impossible for me to understand how a mother could hurt her child yet I see threads here everyday about mom's killing their children.My first instinct is to think "she couldn't have done it,she's the mother!" but then I see the evidence and you don't see me on those threads arguing that I know what a mother feels like so she must be innocent.
 
  • #146
To follow your example, consider a circumstantial evidence based case against a mother who murdered her child. Absent direct evidence, the prosecution has to address the issue of motive, and in doing so they might look into the mother's journal to show she felt burdened by motherhood, was jealous of relationship between the child and the father, or perhaps some other motive. Of course many mothers have such feelings and vast majority who do never harm their children, or at least come no where close to murdering them.

However, when a mother does murder her child and there's no direct evidence to prove as much, the issue of motive must considered along with the circumstantial evidence to find a person guilty beyond any reasonable doubt. Such is necessary because if there is no conceivable motive and rather the mother's journal was full of talk about how much she loved her child, the defense would show that evidence and call her along with others as character witnesses to corroborate as much on the stand, and that evidence suggesting innocence would leave reason to doubt the circumstantial evidence based case against her.

As for this case, there isn't evidence of any ritual, not in Misskelley's many confessions or otherwise, and Fogleman addressed that in his closing arguments at the Baldwin/Echols trial when he explained "whether it was a sacrifice or ritualistic sacrifice or simply those beliefs motivating this defendant, don't matter." In other words, motive need to be manifest overtly like with the craft to blood you suggest for it to be understood within the context of evidence which connects Echols to the murders, both that which was presented at trial and otherwise.

Furthermore, the issue of motive likely would've never came up had Misskelley testified at the Echols/Baldwin trial, as that direct evidence along with the circumstantial evidence would've made addressing the issue of motive superfluous. However, Misskelley changed his mind about testifying shortly before the trial started, making the one recorded confession the prosecution had from him at the time inadmissible, and hence leaving them to work with what evidence they were allowed to present in court.

Anyway, I hope that might help you better understand the reason I created this thread, and that I mean no offense to anyone who has/had interest in the occult. I'm of the opinion that people have the right to believe whatever they like, and it's only when one infringes on the rights of others that their motivations for doing so become an issue. Beyond that, the occasional occultist murderer doesn't impugn upon occultism any more than for example an occasional vegan letter bomber impugn upon veganism, which is to say not at all. People come up with all sorts of reasons to do all sorts of horrible things, but it's not the reasons which are at fault, it's the people who infringe upon the rights of others by acting on them.
 
  • #147
Again, the WMPD didn't focus on the notion of occult motivations opposed to other possibilities, but rather investigated many people as possible perpetrators who had nothing to do with occultism. Mara Leveritt published a letter from prosecutor John Fogleman which addresses various misconceptions regarding the case including the notion of “Damien Echols tunnel vision” in the last portion of the letter, and that provides some details on other notable suspects, only one of which was known to have any interest in occultism. And again, whether or not one considers the initial suspicions that the murders might've been motivated by an interest in occultism, the fact remains that those suspicions aren't what resulted Echols arrest, but rather it was the direct and circumstantial evidence which I summarized for you previously.

I really would like to know what, if any, documents weren't released or aren't on callahans. Throwing out names is meaningless. What was done after getting those names is what I would like to know. At least according to the documents on callahans, very little was done with a vast majority of the names. I started putting together a timeline of all the documents from the WMPD investigation to get a sense of not just what the WMPD was doing but when. Well, I'm only up to May 18, but I can already see what is coming down the road. Apparently there was a clearance sale on June 24 and June 28. After being given a name to look into in the beginning of May, it appears that, without doing hardly more than lifting a pen, the WMPD was able to clear 9 people on those 2 days. That is either one hardworking PD to be able to go out, hit the streets, and come up with enough info in those 2 days to clear 9 people and counting or it's the laziest and decided to clean up their file, they'd better write up brief reports on each of those people saying we got their name, we find no connection, they're cleared, keeping in mind there are no other records showing they made any effort to show how or why those people were cleared.
 
  • #148
Reedus it might be worth noting that whilst Fogelman 'seemed' to take the dominant role in the prosecution, he was actually the 2nd member of the team. Davies was more of a 'power behind the thrown' or directing from the wings! Even John Douglas was guilty of confusing the roles of those two -as many of us, over the years, have been. Brent Davies, in my view, was playing a very strategical game!

Kyle, I have no interest in convincing anyone of the value or not of Reiki. How it cam into a thread concerning the occult motives of Echols is a bit beyond me. It is merely an Eastern form of 'healing' or reducing tensions, that he has confidence in. It worked and works for him. Fine. It does for may others too. Some for real and some merely a placebo effect!

Accupuncture, however, has worked for me and despite my dread of needles I would far rather go that route than heavy duty opiodes for pain relief in severe circumstances.

Whilst incarcerated Echols had no choice. That he has gone the route of hollistic medicinal approaches including some from the East does not make him a Warlock or anything else remotely connected with 'magik'.

As too 'hidden messages' in song lyrics, having known a few songwriters in my life I have found it very amusing reading some of the interpretations put on them by fans. For the record - there really was an 'Egg Man' and I, too, was there for that gem! You at least had to have listened to the Michael Jackson tracks to have noted the lyric you quote!!

I have, over time, been given unsolicited recordings and am ashamed to say that I did not listen to all of them. Some I sampled a bit of and then went with my instinct. Others I listened to repeatedly and then tried to do something for the creator of the recording when I could - even if it was just words of encouragement. With a few others I went that bit further.

In my view some poets can have their work set to music. Most lyricists need the music to make the words more effective! But that is just my opinion.
 
  • #149
Well getting back to the topic at hand, I recently stumbled across some early interview footage of Echols where he lets his mask slip for a moment and partially acknowledges his lust for blood:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmiBCugKBkg"]Damien Echols admits to licking blood - YouTube[/ame]
 
  • #150
Reedus it might be worth noting that whilst Fogelman 'seemed' to take the dominant role in the prosecution, he was actually the 2nd member of the team. Davies was more of a 'power behind the thrown' or directing from the wings! Even John Douglas was guilty of confusing the roles of those two -as many of us, over the years, have been. Brent Davies, in my view, was playing a very strategical game!

Yes, I picked up on that. Fogleman frankly did a lot of the leg work but all you have to do is look at who spoke last to determine who was "the guy". Davis gave the rebuttal argument for the prosecution in both occasions.
 
  • #151
Well again getting back to the topic at hand, here's an excerpt of a handwritten statement from Laura Maxwell, given to police a couple weeks before Echols was arrested:

Dated Damien Summer of 1991. He was a good person at that time. After we stopped dating my best friend Ashley Smith told me about Damien talking to her [???] we broke up. He told he used to be a knight in his past life that killed all these people and he has written some books on witchcraft. He told me that he liked to get raw steak meat and suck the blood out. This one boy told me one time Jason Baldwin busted his nose & blood was all over the ground so Damien got down on the ground & started licking the blood up. He used to say that if he was out walking or something & he got thirsty that he would just like to take a baseball ball bat & knock somebody out & take a bite out of their neck & drink their blood. I'm not sure if he ever did this, that's just what he told me.
 
  • #152
Well again getting back to the topic at hand, here's an excerpt of a handwritten statement from Laura Maxwell, given to police a couple weeks before Echols was arrested:

Don't forget she says he threatened to kill her and her family. He stalked her after they broke up. In fact, he found some way to break into her room at night and "do stuff" to her without her knowing. Oh, and he talked about cutting people's fingers and toes off. And also threatened to kill Deanna Holcomb if she didn't go back out with him. And better yet Garrett told Jason Frazier who told his neighbor's brother's boss's step son that Damien and Jason had their devil worshiping sessions at the park, the boys saw something and Damien killed them. The only thing missing is the Great Dane.

Quite vivid imaginations they had down there at the time. All of that information sounds so reliable, I'm shocked I didn't hear more about it at trial.
 
  • #153
  • #154
Don't forget she says he threatened to kill her and her family.
I've not forgotten, I'm just sticking to what's relevant to the topic of this thread. That said, perhaps you'd like to start a thread about the various reports of Echols threatening to kill people, as there is considerably more documentation on that.

Quite vivid imaginations they had down there at the time.
Well Echols' well documented beliefs such as communicating with demons through, gaining power from drinking blood and being possessed are certainly indicative of a very vivid imagination, and they go along way towards corroborating Maxwell's statements regarding Echols.

If we're going to start throwing in silly statements, Ricky Climer deserves a mention...

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/rickyclimerstatement.html
I was planning to get to Ricky Climer, as he corroborates Echols' occult interests with various details, including the eating of animals for initiation and gaining power which Misskelley also discussed throughout his confessions but latter insisted he'd made up on his own. I suppose you prefer to imagine Ridge tricked both of them into saying such things though, and perhaps even planted all the animal carcases and bones Driver and Jones found, or do suppose figure they conspired to plant such evidence which is so tangentially related to the murders themselves?
 
  • #155
I was planning to get to Ricky Climer, as he corroborates Echols' occult interests with various details, including the eating of animals for initiation and gaining power which Misskelley also discussed throughout his confessions but latter insisted he'd made up on his own.

I am honestly flabbergasted that anyone can quote Ricky Climer as corroboration of anything. Did you really type that with a straight face? It should be obvious the guy is off his onion.

I suppose you prefer to imagine Ridge tricked both of them into saying such things though, and perhaps even planted all the animal carcases and bones Driver and Jones found, or do suppose figure they conspired to plant such evidence which is so tangentially related to the murders themselves?

Actually I would prefer it if you didn't try and make up answers for me.

Tell us more about the animal carcasses and bones you refer to as "evidence".
 
  • #156
I'd prefer you didn't leave me to speculate regarding the reasoning behind your assertions, but you're far from being forthcoming here. As for Cilmer, he's certainly done some damage to himself with all the drugs he took at such a young age. That's not reason to assume he hallucinated or fabricated every detail though by any stretch, and he's clearly far more on his onion that Echols was when writing his letters to Gloria Shettles. As for the animal carcasses which corroborate what Cilmer and Misskelley talked about, see this report and the last couple minutes of this this video, though I recommend watching at least the first couple of minutes too to see how much Echols spray painted his name around the place:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpOTw8o2ZTo"]writings on walls 061493 - YouTube[/ame]
 
  • #157
A dead cat and some rotting pigeon carcasses doesn't corroborate what either of them said. The fact that Jerry Driver thinks this is evidence of a Satanic cult operating in the area does corroborate the idea that Driver had bought into the satanic panic that was prevalent at the time.

As for graffiti, you'll get that everywhere and I would guess most of the culprits are teenage and male.

Still, everyone who hasn't read it should take a few minutes to read Ricky Climer's statement.
 
  • #158
I've not forgotten, I'm just sticking to what's relevant to the topic of this thread. That said, perhaps you'd like to start a thread about the various reports of Echols threatening to kill people, as there is considerably more documentation on that.

And I bet it would still be less than what you could dig up on me given the chance. Meaningless all the way around.
 
  • #159
Well Echols' well documented beliefs such as communicating with demons through, gaining power from drinking blood and being possessed are certainly indicative of a very vivid imagination, and they go along way towards corroborating Maxwell's statements regarding Echols.


Even if so, great, you have 2 people with vivid imaginations. So what? Again. Meaningless.
 
  • #160
I was planning to get to Ricky Climer, as he corroborates Echols' occult interests with various details, including the eating of animals for initiation and gaining power which Misskelley also discussed throughout his confessions but latter insisted he'd made up on his own. I suppose you prefer to imagine Ridge tricked both of them into saying such things though, and perhaps even planted all the animal carcases and bones Driver and Jones found, or do suppose figure they conspired to plant such evidence which is so tangentially related to the murders themselves?

First and foremost, I don't trust one dang thing about Jones or Driver. At best they are inept. At worst, well I'll just leave that one alone. What I think is that there were rumors running rampant about a lot of people, including Damien. And with each telling of the rumor, it got crazier and crazier. You can choose to follow and believe rumors, I'd like to see something concrete to support the rumor before I accept it as anything more than that. Was anything concrete ever provided about the Great Dane or did we all agree the story was just BS?
 

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