Damien Echols' occult motives

[Mountain_Kat]

This is an interesting side of the debate on, but I really don't think there actually was much of a motive in this case .. I think Damien at the time was interested in alternative religions, just as he seems to be now.

IMO there was no planning here, whatsoever. The 3 older boys were drinking in the woods and by chance the three younger boys entered the area, and then the attack began, sort of like an act of bullying with Damien and Jason each outdoing the other which tragically leads to the murder of all three.

I think there's a difference between someone in a 'hate gang' for instance going out and seeking a target for their misguided rage, or perhaps setting upon someone they were already felt a racist hatred for, and this crime .. however I understand the parallel of vulnerable victims.

I'm sure there was a feeling of power and dominance gained simply by being able to commit the act, and by doing it in front of others. I also think that's part of the reason Damien talked about it afterwards, it added to his cache for want of a better word, or so he thought.

He may have even tried to frame the act in his own mind to give it deeper meaning for his own benefit, but I really don't believe this crime had much sense to it at all, in the same way I don't believe school shootings make much sense. I view them similarly.

Having said that, I can see Damien adding value and power to the act post crime, especially in discussions with Jason.

I have a REALLY hard time imagining Jason Baldwin as a bully, much less a bully who went to this extreme. JMO

 

[primitivefuture]

As for the animal carcasses which corroborate what Cilmer and Misskelley talked about, see this report and the last couple minutes of this this video, though I recommend watching at least the first couple of minutes too to see how much Echols spray painted his name around the place:

writings on walls 061493 - YouTube

Corroboration of tall tales about "satanic occults" or proof that sometimes cats get hit by cars and die under overpasses? I'm thinking it's the latter.

Also, I'm pretty sure my name is still spray painted on the wall in my old hangout spot under my grandmother's back porch. Sleep with one eye open, granny.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ausgirl]

As somebody who lived and breathed heavy metal and pagan culture for much of my youth, married a death metal musician, was good friend with members of Mayhem and Paradise Lost (metal folks'll know who they are..) and associated with a crowd of around 200 metal-dedicated people constantly throughout that period...

And as someone who has explored alternate religions, the occult, wore a lot of black, and was employed at one point to create horror-art for metal bands and magazines...

Just as someone who has lived that life that Echols was in, only in an environment that was way more permissive of it...

I have to say thank ALL the gods that me and my people were nowhere near that town at the time of the murders. If lifestyle is "evidence"? (what a joke) we'd have all been in jail in about two seconds flat.

For what it's worth, the majority of that 200 are now gainfully employed, happy, family people who have never hurt another living soul. We expressed our darknesses through art, music, writing, our clothes and language -- so there was no need for violence or causing harm to others or ourselves.

And for those who've sneered at Echols for his 'crazy' practises in lighting candles to pagans gods, etc -- it's no more crazy than believing in angels, or a big guy in the sky who gives a damn about whether you bonked your neighbour's husband or not..

From somebody who comes from, and has for a time lived to the fullest, Echols' side of the belief and lifestyle fence, I find the notion of his personal appearance, lifetsyle choices and beliefs being 'evidence' in a crime completely beyond ridiculous, and more indicative of the narrow mindedness of the culture he was born to than anything else.

It just all makes me grateful to have the fortune of growing up ten thousand miles from any of that.

Is he guilty? I have no firm opinion on that. But wow, let evidence of a crime really be evidence, if he is.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I don't care what kind of movies he made, What he was into or who he listened to.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with the murder of 3 little boys that there is no evidence linking him to.

(yes I know that is grammatically horrid.. )

There is nothing that links Damien to this crime. NOTHING.

Whether he danced naked under the moon drenched in deer blood, or said crazy things to impress and scare people, there is nothing that links him to the death of these babies.

 

[Bravo]

As somebody who lived and breathed heavy metal and pagan culture for much of my youth, married a death metal musician, was good friend with members of Mayhem and Paradise Lost (metal folks'll know who they are..) and associated with a crowd of around 200 metal-dedicated people constantly throughout that period...

And as someone who has explored alternate religions, the occult, wore a lot of black, and was employed at one point to create horror-art for metal bands and magazines...

Just as someone who has lived that life that Echols was in, only in an environment that was way more permissive of it...

I have to say thank ALL the gods that me and my people were nowhere near that town at the time of the murders. If lifestyle is "evidence"? (what a joke) we'd have all been in jail in about two seconds flat.

For what it's worth, the majority of that 200 are now gainfully employed, happy, family people who have never hurt another living soul. We expressed our darknesses through art, music, writing, our clothes and language -- so there was no need for violence or causing harm to others or ourselves.

And for those who've sneered at Echols for his 'crazy' practises in lighting candles to pagans gods, etc -- it's no more crazy than believing in angels, or a big guy in the sky who gives a damn about whether you bonked your neighbour's husband or not..

From somebody who comes from, and has for a time lived to the fullest, Echols' side of the belief and lifestyle fence, I find the notion of his personal appearance, lifetsyle choices and beliefs being 'evidence' in a crime completely beyond ridiculous, and more indicative of the narrow mindedness of the culture he was born to than anything else.

It just all makes me grateful to have the fortune of growing up ten thousand miles from any of that.

Is he guilty? I have no firm opinion on that. But wow, let evidence of a crime really be evidence, if he is.

Wonderful post :seeya::seeya: I believe Damien was well before his time. He hit the Goth period well before it was current. Let alone in the deep South.

 

[kyleb]

But wow, let evidence of a crime really be evidence

Yes wow, I respect how the topic of Echols' lifestyle hits close to home for you, but please let the evidence of murders be evidence of that rather than confusing it with the evidence of motive which is the topic of this thread. Surely if this were a case of someone from the other side of the fence, say some hard core bible beater who was convicted for murdering an abortion doctor or a homosexual, you'd have no issue understanding how evidence regarding the particulars of their lifestyle would be relevant to the issue of motive, eh?

 

[Cappuccino]

Hard core bible bashers consider abortion and homosexuality to be sinful and, in the most extreme cases, punishable by death.

Goths, heavy metal fans, Wiccans and Satanists do not consider children to be sinful and punishable by death.

See the difference?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Yes wow, I respect how the topic of Echols' lifestyle hits close to home for you, but please let the evidence of murders be evidence of that rather than confusing it with the evidence of motive which is the topic of this thread. Surely if this were a case of someone from the other side of the fence, say some hard core bible beater who was convicted for murdering an abortion doctor or a homosexual, you'd have no issue understanding how evidence regarding the particulars of their lifestyle would be relevant to the issue of motive, eh?

It does not hit close to home it just makes us understand that two things are not connected. It is not relevant. Does this mean every director or producer or writer of a horrible slasher film is a murderer? How do you then explain all the death metal artist who are not murderers either..

One has nothing to do with the other. Nothing.

He was a teen who was into goth and darkness. It means nothing about this crime.

The evidence is clear. He was not there, he did not do it.

 

[kyleb]

Goths, heavy metal fans, Wiccans and Satanists do not consider children to be sinful and punishable by death.

Sure, and vast majority of people, be they goths, heavy metal fans, Wiccans, Satanists or otherwise, don't believe anything along the lines of what Echols testified to here either:

16 Q. It also states that Damien stated that the younger
17 of the victims would be more innocent and in turn more
18 power would be given the person doing the killing.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Did you say that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Those are your words?
23 A. Uh-huh.

Those are Echols' beliefs, and they are relevant to the issue of motive, regardless of how close to Echols' beliefs and lifestyle one might be in other respects.

 

[Ina Cognito]

Sure, and vast majority of people, be they goths, heavy metal fans, Wiccans, Satanists or otherwise, don't believe anything along the lines of what Echols testified to here either:


Those are Echols' beliefs, and they are relevant to the issue of motive, regardless of how close to Echols' beliefs and lifestyle one might be in other respects.

Those were comments in response to a question asked to him by LE. They asked him why he felt someone might do this. He was a teen and was under the impression the crime was involving satanists.... Those were NOT spontaneous thoughts or beliefs that Damian offered.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Sure, and vast majority of people, be they goths, heavy metal fans, Wiccans, Satanists or otherwise, don't believe anything along the lines of what Echols testified to here either:


Those are Echols' beliefs, and they are relevant to the issue of motive, regardless of how close to Echols' beliefs and lifestyle one might be in other respects.

It does not mean anything relative to guilt. It is just blah blah blah by a punk know it all who wanted to shock and horrify.

Those are his thoughts then..

It is completely unrelated to this crime.

 

[Cappuccino]

Sure, and vast majority of people, be they goths, heavy metal fans, Wiccans, Satanists or otherwise, don't believe anything along the lines of what Echols testified to here either:


Those are Echols' beliefs, and they are relevant to the issue of motive, regardless of how close to Echols' beliefs and lifestyle one might be in other respects.

You have misrepresented that snippet as if it were Echols describing his own beliefs. It wasn't. That was the part of his testimony where Davis is questioning him about his statement to Bryn Ridge, in which Ridge asks him to hypothesise about the crime and its motives. IOW, that's Damien's hypothesis of what the killer would have believed.

He expresses his own beliefs, (on that very page you've linked to but apparently not read), as Wiccan and talks about the rule of three. If you do something good it comes back to you threefold, if you do something bad it backfires on you threefold.

Incidentally, the way that snippet of conversation was misrepresented in court as incriminating is a very good reason why people should never talk to police without a lawyer present. The police in Escondido pulled the same trick on Aaron Houser, and got similar results. Lucky they found Stephanie Crowe's blood on Richard Tuitte's shirt or Houser along with Michael Crowe and Joshua Treadway would no doubt have been convicted on similar evidence as these three.

 

[Ina Cognito]

Great point about Aaron Houser. Also an example of false confession...

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Continuing the testimony just quoted:

24 Q. Kind of sounds like that guy we talked about
25 yesterday, right?
2821

1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Mr. Crowley?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is that where you got that idea?
5 A. I saw it on several movies, books.

So, even the prosecution is pointing out (and Damien agrees) that those ideas came from movies and/or books.

 

[kyleb]

You have misrepresented that snippet as if it were Echols describing his own beliefs.

Rather, Echols misrepresents his beliefs when he talks Wicca and the rule of three and such, as evidenced throughout his mental heath records and the other evidence cited throughout this thread. But of you've no issue with Echols and others misrepresenting even the simple and irrefutably evidenced fact that Echols lived in West Memphis at the time of the murders, do you?

So, even the prosecution is pointing out (and Damien agrees) that those ideas came from movies and/or books.

And people who are motivated to commit murders by beliefs that abortion and/or homosexuality are sinful and punishable by death get their ideas from movies and books too.

 

[Ina Cognito]

Rather, Echols misrepresents his beliefs when he talks Wicca and the rule of three and such, as evidenced throughout his mental heath records and the other evidence cited throughout this thread. But of you've no issue with Echols and others misrepresenting even the simple and irrefutably evidenced fact that Echols lived in West Memphis at the time of the murders, do you?

How could you possibly even know what Damian's beliefs concerning Wicca were or weren't at that time? :facepalm:

 

[Cappuccino]

Rather, Echols misrepresents his beliefs when he talks Wicca and the rule of three and such, as evidenced throughout his mental heath records and the other evidence cited throughout this thread.

Nonsense. It was you who misrepresented Damien's answers to Ridge as if they were Damien's own beliefs. Its a common trick for police officers to ask a suspect to hypothesise about the crime, it can prompt a suspect to sound as if they had knowledge of the crime when the poor sap thinks he's just being helpful to the police.

Sometimes, of course, it does reveal knowledge of the crime. For example, another early suspect in this case was interviewed with the same technique and revealed that he knew the boys had been tied with their own shoe laces. Even worse, he initially tried to lie about it and pretend he didn't know how they had been tied. He had a lengthy history of violence against children too, unlike Damien.

But his wife alibi'd him, so Bryn Ridge crossed him off the list.

 

[kyleb]

How could you possibly even know what Damian's beliefs concerning Wicca were or weren't at that time?

The same way I know Echols lived in West Memphis at the time of the murders, because I prefer to familiarize myself with the evidence regarding such matters rather than wallow in denial of it.

Its a common trick for police officers to ask a suspect to hypothesise about the crime, it can prompt a suspect to sound as if they had knowledge of the crime when the poor sap thinks he's just being helpful to the police.

No, the FBI behavioral Analysis interview procedures are not a grand conspiracy frame innocent people, regardless of how much you might want to imagine them to be.

 

[Cappuccino]

No, the FBI behavioral Analysis interview procedures are not a grand conspiracy frame innocent people, regardless of how much you might want to imagine them to be.

I never said they were a grand conspiracy at all. I described them - accurately - as a commonly used technique which sometimes fools innocent people into making incriminating statements, and sometimes produces actual results.

I even gave an example of the technique producing a result in this case. Now where is the FBI study which tells police to cross a suspect off the list when their wife gives them an alibi?

 

[kyleb]

I even gave an example of the technique producing a result in this case.

Rather, you're disregarding an actual example of accurate results and frivolously accusing James Kenny Martin of involvement in the murders, in denial of the evidence which crossed everyone off the list aside from the three who were convicted of and eventually plead guilty to the murders.