"Damning Proof Found"

[wicket]

I'm sure that the cadaver dogs are superb - but if they tracked the scent of death to the church and/or graveyard wouldn't it make sense? There are funerals, funeral flowers, dirt, coffins, etc. This sounds horrible but the ground and area must be infiltrated with such death scents. We wouldn't notice this but a specially trained dog would.

I'm very glad that other WB's are smarter and more logical than I to work this puzzle out - I enjoy them immensely.

 

[Salem]

Yes, Wudge, but I believe their laws are different than what we're used to here in the States. They are just now seeking a Judge's approval to seize evidence and to search in buildings that they were in after Maddy's disappearance. Here all of that would have been done immediately. If a judge is just now giving consent for all of this, who knows what they've got. They're supposed to be back in the country in about three days from what I understand and the judge has about 10 days to decide whether they should be arrested. I guess we'll find out more then.

And Jeana - it was in the media that PLE would have had charges pressed against the McCanns but the McCanns' attorney apparently had a meeting with some political figure (I can't remember exactly who) and the process for pressing the charges were postponed. It will be interesting to see what happens and how soon.

I'll see if I can find the link that talks about PLE's frustration with not be able to charge Kate or have stricter bail conditions before they returned home.

My guess is the McCanns and their attorney pulled some political strings so they could take the twins home, with some kind of "promise" that they would return. But if you watch all the media quotes, the McCanns have only said they would return for further "interviews". They have made no committment to return to Portugal if charges are to brought against them. At this point, I further speculate that the McCanns are digging their heels in and preparing for an extridition war.

:twocents:
Salem

 

[Jeana (DP)]

And Jeana - it was in the media that PLE would have had charges pressed against the McCanns but the McCanns' attorney apparently had a meeting with some political figure (I can't remember exactly who) and the process for pressing the charges were postponed. It will be interesting to see what happens and how soon.

I'll see if I can find the link that talks about PLE's frustration with not be able to charge Kate or have stricter bail conditions before they returned home.

My guess is the McCanns and their attorney pulled some political strings so they could take the twins home, with some kind of "promise" that they would return. But if you watch all the media quotes, the McCanns have only said they would return for further "interviews". They have made no committment to return to Portugal if charges are to brought against them. At this point, I further speculate that the McCanns are digging their heels in and preparing for an extridition war.

:twocents:
Salem

You are absolutely right about that! I did hear this evening, however, that the police in their area are cooperating with the Portugal authorities. I'd like to believe that's the truth.

 

[CaliKid]

You are absolutely right about that! I did hear this evening, however, that the police in their area are cooperating with the Portugal authorities. I'd like to believe that's the truth.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the way I understand this is that when the McCanns were made arguidos on Friday, they were told they were subject to Portuguese law and could be brought in for further questioning at any time.

The McCanns were scheduled to return to the UK on or around the 11th. That was the date their lease was up on the villa.

It appears that as soon as they left the police station in Portimao they began making plans to leave and received permission from the PJ, as long as they agreed to return if asked.

They flew home on Sunday morning. They immediately hired a team of lawyers, including one who was an expert in fighting extradition.

The police asked for the McCanns to return to Portugal on Monday after the DNA was found in the boot of the car. The McCanns refused.

Through ongoing negotiations, the PJ gave the McCanns an ultimatum and said they had 5 days to report- meaning Saturday.

So will the McCanns return to Portugal and what will happen when they do?

IMO, they end up appearing more guilty for refusing to go.

 

[PagingDrDetect]

I don't doubt for a minute that the
properly trained dog can do all the things you suggest. What I do doubt is that we don't know in each case how the dog was trained and the accuracy of said dog. I am skeptical of dog scents until it has been properly vetted by a court of law.

The two dogs were brought in from the UK and are considered pretty much the best in the WORLD at what they do.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the way I understand this is that when the McCanns were made arguidos on Friday, they were told they were subject to Portuguese law and could be brought in for further questioning at any time.

The McCanns were scheduled to return to the UK on or around the 11th. That was the date their lease was up on the villa.

It appears that as soon as they left the police station in Portimao they began making plans to leave and received permission from the PJ, as long as they agreed to return if asked.

They flew home on Sunday morning. They immediately hired a team of lawyers, including one who was an expert in fighting extradition.

The police asked for the McCanns to return to Portugal on Monday after the DNA was found in the boot of the car. The McCanns refused.

Through ongoing negotiations, the PJ gave the McCanns an ultimatum and said they had 5 days to report- meaning Saturday.

So will the McCanns return to Portugal and what will happen when they do?

IMO, they end up appearing more guilty for refusing to go.

It sounds as if you've got it down completely. From what I heard on television (and we know that information isn't always correct, the police in their town are working with the police in Portugal. I suspect that there is no reason yet to have them "brought in" as they are not yet under arrest, but I'm assuming (dangerous, I know) that once an arrest warrant has been made for one or both of them, that the police in their area would then be asked to do something, but not before.

 

[PagingDrDetect]

I'm sure that the cadaver dogs are superb - but if they tracked the scent of death to the church and/or graveyard wouldn't it make sense? There are funerals, funeral flowers, dirt, coffins, etc. This sounds horrible but the ground and area must be infiltrated with such death scents. We wouldn't notice this but a specially trained dog would.

I'm very glad that other WB's are smarter and more logical than I to work this puzzle out - I enjoy them immensely.

That's why people are buried at least 6 feet down... otherwise animals can pick up the cadaver scent and dig up human remains. Six feet down is too deep for animals to scent the dead. If any cemetery was riddled with cadaver scent animals from all over the place would be in there digging away to get at the remains.

Cadaver dogs aren't trained to find the scent... ALL dogs (and all scavenger animals) can do that. They're trained to track it on command without giving up or being distracted and to signal the handler of a find.

I had an Akita that naturally would have made a great cadaver dog... he LOVED the stink of dead things, was absolutely diligent in tracking the scent to it's source and couldn't be distracted from his tracking. Unfortunately, he also desperately wanted to eat the dead things he found, which is not a good thing in a working cadaver dog.

A have another Akita now that Kato passed away, and he hates the smell of dead things. He tracks cigarette butts, banana peels and chewing gum that people spit out on the street... those are his favorite stinky things (and yes, he wants to eat them).
:waitasec:

 

[SleuthMom]

I suspect that there is no reason yet to have them "brought in" as they are not yet under arrest

I thought the judge has three options: Charge them, not charge them or call them back for further inquiries. I wonder IF they are NOT charged but called for further questioning if they will decide NOT to go to Portugal.

 

[kittykat1]

I think they placed her body somewhere after she died, then when the search got too close to the hidig place, one (or both) of the parents used the rental car to move her body somewhere else.

If the McCanns were being so closely watched, how could they have gotten away with this? I haven't read this whole thread yet, so the answers to some of these questions may be here.

1. If the Brit cadaver dogs are so remarkable, why can't they locate a) the temporary "hiding" place of Madeleine's body and b) where the body is laid to rest?

2. I understand the roads near the church the family prayed at will be dug up. What is the point if they were being so closely watched?

3. Highly unlikely, but possible the rental car was rented by the actual abductor (not being the McCann's)

4. First I read the bodily fluids were 80%, what about the other 20%?

5. If the PJ is trying to frame the McCanns, perhaps this is what happened. Though it may be far fetched, here is my idea. The dogs are given a scent to pick up on. Supposedly, they are given a cadaver scent. Who is to say they weren't just given the scent of Madeleine? And that the PJ is being untruthful and just saying they were given the cadaver scent?

6. Perhaps many of the forensics are made up. Money talks.

7. I just cannot believe these parents had anything to do with their child's disappearance.

8. Sadly, I do not think Madeleine will be found alive.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I thought the judge has three options: Charge them, not charge them or call them back for further inquiries. I wonder IF they are NOT charged but called for further questioning if they will decide NOT to go to Portugal.

Since Mrs. McCann refused to answer several questions (from reports I've seen) during her last interview, I can't see them volunteering to go back and answer any more. I don't know, however, if that would preclude the police from traveling to the UK to ask them questions and if they would cooperate from there.

 

[kittykat1]

Kgram,
I use those large Ziplocs to store large items in. BUT the scent of a dead person would permeate those bags, that's my opinion of course.

Whether they used a zip bag or not, the body would emit odor. You can't just spray Lysol and make it go away. Not even in a duffle bag.

 

[twinkiesmom]

You have to remember that letting them go back to Britain is not like letting suspects flee borders here. There is a European extradition treaty which makes Europe like one big country in terms of bringing suspects back for arrest. It's not like they can hide behind the queen's skirts.

Someone posted on another board that Australian media are reporting the fluid in the spare tire well is decomp fluid. I have not seen that printed anywhere.

I do think criticism of PJ is premature as they do appear to be building case...and with the help of British LE so as to avoid the appearance of malice.

I love how the British consider us the unsophisticated ruffians when they use terms like boot, hire car, and pushchair in their common speech.

 

[Wudge]

You have to remember that letting them go back to Britain is not like letting suspects flee borders here. There is a European extradition treaty which makes Europe like one big country in terms of bringing suspects back for arrest. It's not like they can hide behind the queen's skirts.

Someone posted on another board that Australian media are reporting the fluid in the spare tire well is decomp fluid. I have not seen that printed anywhere.

I do think criticism of PJ is premature as they do appear to be building case...and with the help of British LE so as to avoid the appearance of malice.

I love how the British consider us the unsophisticated ruffians when they use terms like boot, hire car, and pushchair in their common speech.

LE and the prosecutors knew what they had, and they knew it was not enough to charge either of the parents. So why the leaks to try the parents in the media?

Right now, this case has become Richard Jewell and the Olympic bombing case. It's become Gary Condit and the Chandra Levy case. Its become Richard Ricci and the Elizabeth Smart case. It's become Nifong and the Duke Lacrosse rape case. It's become the Aisenbergs and the baby Sabrina case. It's becpme the Ramseys and the Jon Benet case, etc., etc.

It's now another putrid LE/prosecutor crimetainment debacle that stinks beyond hell.

 

[Rino]

Unless they are guilty.....

 

[Jeana (DP)]

LE and the prosecutors knew what they had, and they knew it was not enough to charge either of the parents. So why the leaks to try the parents in the media?

Right now, this case has become Richard Jewell and the Olympic bombing case. It's become Gary Condit and the Chandra Levy case. Its become Richard Ricci and the Elizabeth Smart case. It's become Nifong and the Duke Lacrosse rape case. It's become the Aisenbergs and the baby Sabrina case. It's becpme the Ramseys and the Jon Benet case, etc., etc.

It's now another putrid LE/prosecutor crimetainment debacle that stinks beyond hell.

Wudge, I disagree. The police did not focus on these parents as suspects. While their investigative methods differ from ours, it appears as though they've done their jobs and their investigation has led them to the parents. They didn't START OUT with them as suspects. I think you're off base here in suggesting that they did.

 

[SleuthMom]

They didn't START OUT with them as suspects. I think you're off base here in suggesting that they did.

You are right. As a matter of fact they only started "recording" them just a month ago! Which indicates they did not see the Mc Canns as suspects from day one, otherwise they would have brought the cadaver dogs as soon as this girl went missing but instead they brought in the other dogs as you usually do in a kidnapping/missing situation.

 

[Brefie]

Wudge, I disagree. The police did not focus on these parents as suspects. While their investigative methods differ from ours, it appears as though they've done their jobs and their investigation has led them to the parents. They didn't START OUT with them as suspects. I think you're off base here in suggesting that they did.

Hey Jeana,

I disagree that it appears they have done their jobs and the investigation has led them to the parents. Although, I absolutely agree with you that they did appear to look at other leads, I truly think that they are bowing to pressure to get a conclusion in this case. The McCann's are seemingly not popular in Portugal and added to the fact that they made the COLOSSAL and possibly fatal mistake of leaving their children alone, they make for 'okay' suspects, imo.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Hey Jeana,

I disagree that it appears they have done their jobs and the investigation has led them to the parents. Although, I absolutely agree with you that they did appear to look at other leads, I truly think that they are bowing to pressure to get a conclusion in this case. The McCann's are seemingly not popular in Portugal and added to the fact that they made the COLOSSAL and possibly fatal mistake of leaving their children alone, they make for 'okay' suspects, imo.

Hey, don't get me wrong. I think the police in this case have made some seroius mistakes and if it were U.S. police, this case may even be lost because of it. However, from what I understand the laws there are completely different that U.S. laws, so we may be operating under assumptions of what should have happened and when and that things are completely FUBAR when they may not be.

 

[Brefie]

Hey, don't get me wrong. I think the police in this case have made some seroius mistakes and if it were U.S. police, this case may even be lost because of it. However, from what I understand the laws there are completely different that U.S. laws, so we may be operating under assumptions of what should have happened and when and that things are completely FUBAR when they may not be.

So very true.

 

[Rino]

Mark Furman believes they are doing a very good investigative job