Dateline with Josh Powell 12-9-11

[katydid23]

here is a great post from an old thread, the link is at the bottom. [posted by mountainkat]

I don't believe the garden had much to do with the pancake meal either...if I recall, the menu was pancakes and scrambled eggs with cream cheese and peppers. What did strike me as odd about things the friends have said was:

1). It took Josh 4 hours to make a meal that should have taken about 30 minutes (no more than an hour even for a novice).

2). That Josh prepared and served each plate to each individual, rather than serve it family style.

3). That Susan remarked that she was chilly and sleepy after the meal and needed a nap.

4). That Josh spoke to his father regarding this meal.

Individually, each of those things don't seem all that sinister...but taken as a whole, in a case where a woman disappears the very next day? Damned curious if you ask me.

I also find it curious that Susan had reported being sick for a few weeks prior to her disappearance, and that both of the boys were experiencing diarrhea as well. Also odd that Josh seems to have controlled what everyone ate. Could these things be coincidence? Sure. But they are curious given what we now know.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7161169&postcount=39"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Was Susan Poisoned?[/ame]

 

[otto]

Yes, they did eat late. According to my memory, she walked with the kids to temple services that morning, and they arrived back at around noonish. I may be a little off, but something like that.

Josh stayed home so when they got back, he was making the whole family a special lunch. He did it all himself apparently, and they did not eat until around 2. I remember reading this and wondering how they kept the kids from eating immediately upon returning from their walk after temple. But apparently he made them all wait until he served them his special meal.

And the pancakes were mixed with something else, like sour cream and something too. I will go and look it up,but it is odd.

Remember the part about the carpets being freshly cleaned by the couch, and the box fans blowing them dry? Some have speculated that she actually threw up on the rug there.


eta:
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13170501570481

Per Kiirsi last night not verbatim: Susan was very ill the three weeks prior to her disappearance. The day Susan disappeared, JP called his dad for a pancake recipe. They spoke for 15 minutes. Kiirsi says in hindsight, this really bothers her. Feels bodily fluids not blood on carpet removed from home. Loveseat also removed from home.

Thank you! So she was away in the morning, but they had to wait 2 hours for lunch. Two hours to make pancakes ... do you know what time Josh spoke to dad - when he had the recipe? Pancakes are 20 mins. max. Throwing up would explain the fans and the missing loveseat (was that found?), the sudden fatigue at 4 o'clock ... something poisonous in her pancakes would explain both.

I was wondering why he took the children tobogganing at 5:30, at dinner time, and had assumed that they ate at 5 PM. If they ate at 2, then they most likely didn't eat at 5, nor 6 and it's even possible that when Josh returned, the boys were asleep in the car and he did something to Susan or moved her into the car at that time. What a night that must have been!

Obviously she didn't ride off on her bike and she wasn't abducted ... she simply vanished from inside her home at a time when she was not feeling 100%. Her husband has a completely ridiculous story about what he did that night.

 

[heidisams]

here is a great post from an old thread, the link is at the bottom. [posted by mountainkat]

I don't believe the garden had much to do with the pancake meal either...if I recall, the menu was pancakes and scrambled eggs with cream cheese and peppers. What did strike me as odd about things the friends have said was:

1). It took Josh 4 hours to make a meal that should have taken about 30 minutes (no more than an hour even for a novice).

2). That Josh prepared and served each plate to each individual, rather than serve it family style.

3). That Susan remarked that she was chilly and sleepy after the meal and needed a nap.

4). That Josh spoke to his father regarding this meal.

Individually, each of those things don't seem all that sinister...but taken as a whole, in a case where a woman disappears the very next day? Damned curious if you ask me.

I also find it curious that Susan had reported being sick for a few weeks prior to her disappearance, and that both of the boys were experiencing diarrhea as well. Also odd that Josh seems to have controlled what everyone ate. Could these things be coincidence? Sure. But they are curious given what we now know.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Was Susan Poisoned?

Wondering if this "special" prepared meal made for Susan should've knocked her out / killed her (speculating) much earlier than planned.... which is why they're "normal, fun night didn't start til midnightish... I think it was supposed to start shortly after her nap, that was suggested by josh (to get her knitting friend to leave). But, plans didn't go according... her friend didn't leave, so he took the boys sledding to get her to leave.MO. after all is said and done he was finally able to put his plan in motion, however its now much later then he wanted. And I think the boys were right there in that van when daddy got rid of mommy, but were unaware due to either something daddy gave them or from just sheer exhaustion from the amount of time it ended up taking to get this plan on the road... I'm betting grandpa and son probably had a few more calls that day and perhaps Susan received another treat or drink that evening again due to the amount of time it took to get passed some of the other unforeseen happenings of the day...her friend staying after Susan went to lay down for her nap... Josh and his dad were working together on this one, imo, and that is why this has been harder to solve... I think there are many different "scenes" scattered in that big country! Hope the pieces can be put together and these poor boys can get away from dad and grandpa permanently!!!!! And Susan can get justice in all this deliberately orchestrated confusion! So sick of these type of perps getting away with it!!! Ughh.

 

[TxLady2]

But if he put something in the pancakes, why wouldn't it have killed the boys too? They were much smaller than Susan, and it wouldn't take much to wipe them out, so if it was a one-time poisoning, he had to have added it to just her batch. Could explain the individual servings. But I have mentioned before when we have pancakes, we cook and serve one person at a time, until everybody but the cook has all they want, then the cook gets to eat last. I don't have a big griddle, so I can only cook 4 at one time, max.

If Susan had been listless and tired for a few weeks before she "left" it is possible that she was being given poison in small doses, something that accumulates OR gradually increasing the amount until it killed her.

Agree with everyone's opinions about Josh, I had the same thoughts the first time I saw him on the news. Wimpy! He's either a closet gay, or won't admit it to himself much less anybody else. He gives me the creeps, and as for his daddy, there are no words. Pervert is just not quite strong enough a description. I would not want to be within 10 miles of him, much less in the same room.

 

[Nova]

...As for joshie, was he castrated as a kid? Seriously, If ever there was someone who got married to stay in the closet. IMHO....

Jacie, I'm sorry to criticize, because I don't blame you for feeling strongly about this case (and I find Josh Powell's explanations just as hard to believe as you do).

But your statement that I quote above is offensive on so many levels, I hardly know where to begin.

Castration has nothing to do with homosexuality or the closet.

Homicide isn't more commonly committed by closeted homosexuals. (At least I've never seen any data to support such a contention; it's just a cliche from B movies and pulp fiction.)

But the stereotype that homosexuals are homicidal is particularly nasty and tenacious.

Moreover, we've just heard reports that Josh may also be associated with some of the child found in the search of the Powell home. The association of child molestation with homosexuality is another untrue but hard-to-kill stereotype.

There are plenty of reasons to distrust Josh Powell. But to my knowledge, there is no reason to believe he is gay. So it would be nice if we could try to avoid leaping to that association.

 

[Nova]

Anything is possible Would this be the same innocent man who got outta Dodge when he was named a POI? :escape:

Please don't misunderstand me. I think there are any number of reasons to suspect Josh Powell and I don't believe the "midnight camping trip in subzero weather" story for a minute.

I just meant that whether he is guilty or innocent, it shouldn't surprise us that he appears to be under a great deal of stress.

 

[Nova]

Re the purported snow storm on the night of the midnight camping: if Kimmer, Steely Dan and Gitana1 all remember there being a snow storm, that's good enough for me. (I was probably misled by the Dateline footage of the campsite when there was little snow there.)

Re the box fans in the living room: when JP's sister broke into the house on Monday, did she find the fans RUNNING near the seemingly wet spot? I mean it's odd enough that they were sitting there, but leaving fans to run when the house is empty is very dangerous; at least in the desert where I live, home fires seem to almost always start with faulty fans.

 

[Donjeta]

JMO but I didn't hear anybody saying that gay people are more likely to be homicidal maniacs. Whether JP is or isn't gay or a murderer says nothing about other people, gay or straight. Plenty of straight people killed their wives or husbands and nobody thinks it means that straight=homicidal.

One of the friends said that they had a very affectionate relationship, were always holding hands, and kissing, but then later in the show somebody said Josh wouldn't do it anymore because he didn't want germs. That's pretty offensive coming from your husband imo.... I think it indicates he probably has some issues with sexuality but whether it was Susan specifically or with women in general I don't know.

I think there could be some generational conditioning against females from the older Powell males because SP described on his website how his dad practically abducted the kids and his mom was left wondering and then SP and his wife apparently had a pretty acrimonious breakup. SP and JP's comments about Susan's sexuality came very short of saying she was promiscuous and stink of thinly veiled negativity directed against a sexual female.

It might be just blaming the victim but I wouldn't wonder if the lack of respect was a more general attitude.

Not respecting females does not make you gay and being gay does not make you not respect females but there is imo something in this sex thing that might explain something about the motive.

 

[Donjeta]

Re the purported snow storm on the night of the midnight camping: if Kimmer, Steely Dan and Gitana1 all remember there being a snow storm, that's good enough for me. (I was probably misled by the Dateline footage of the campsite when there was little snow there.)

Re the box fans in the living room: when JP's sister broke into the house on Monday, did she find the fans RUNNING near the seemingly wet spot? I mean it's odd enough that they were sitting there, but leaving fans to run when the house is empty is very dangerous; at least in the desert where I live, home fires seem to almost always start with faulty fans.

Did JP ever say anything about knowing why the fans were there? Did he put them there before he left camping with the kids?

If he didn't, does he expect us to believe that Susan who was very tired decided to do some carpet cleaning after midnight before walking away and leaving her home, husband, children and her purse indefinitely?

 

[gitana1]

JMO but I didn't hear anybody saying that gay people are more likely to be homicidal maniacs. Whether JP is or isn't gay or a murderer says nothing about other people, gay or straight. Plenty of straight people killed their wives or husbands and nobody thinks it means that straight=homicidal.

One of the friends said that they had a very affectionate relationship, were always holding hands, and kissing, but then later in the show somebody said Josh wouldn't do it anymore because he didn't want germs. That's pretty offensive coming from your husband imo.... I think it indicates he probably has some issues with sexuality but whether it was Susan specifically or with women in general I don't know.

I think there could be some generational conditioning against females from the older Powell males because SP described on his website how his dad practically abducted the kids and his mom was left wondering and then SP and his wife apparently had a pretty acrimonious breakup. SP and JP's comments about Susan's sexuality came very short of saying she was promiscuous and stink of thinly veiled negativity directed against a sexual female.

It might be just blaming the victim but I wouldn't wonder if the lack of respect was a more general attitude.

Not respecting females does not make you gay and being gay does not make you not respect females but there is imo something in this sex thing that might explain something about the motive.

Jacie, I'm sorry to criticize, because I don't blame you for feeling strongly about this case (and I find Josh Powell's explanations just as hard to believe as you do).

But your statement that I quote above is offensive on so many levels, I hardly know where to begin.

Castration has nothing to do with homosexuality or the closet.

Homicide isn't more commonly committed by closeted homosexuals. (At least I've never seen any data to support such a contention; it's just a cliche from B movies and pulp fiction.)

But the stereotype that homosexuals are homicidal is particularly nasty and tenacious.

Moreover, we've just heard reports that Josh may also be associated with some of the child found in the search of the Powell home. The association of child molestation with homosexuality is another untrue but hard-to-kill stereotype.

There are plenty of reasons to distrust Josh Powell. But to my knowledge, there is no reason to believe he is gay. So it would be nice if we could try to avoid leaping to that association.

I agree with both you and Donjeta. While no one here stated that gay people are more likely to be homicidal, or crazy, or anything else, it is a long standing stereotype that has been perpetuated by film, literature, etc., that can seem inferred when the possibility of being gay is cast in negative terms, as it seems when words like castration and wimpy are coupled with the idea of being gay.

That being said, sexual desire or the lack thereof can be a motive, when coupled with mental issues or sociopathy and religion. For example, Christopher Coleman killed his wife because he didn't want to remain married was attracted to another woman but his religion (and boss) frowned on divorce.

Likewise, it is possible that a person who is gay may get married to someone of the opposite sex who they are not in love with, because their religion believes "homosexuality" is a sin and they want to hide their identity. But, when faced with years of being with this person, cannot withstand it. If you add criminal mindedness to the equation, it could be a motive.

I don't see anything, though, that hints that this could be the case. Instead, I think josh was twisted by the generational parental alienation and misogyny in his family, is controlling and vengeful, wanted to leave her but wanted to come out looking like the good guy AND get "his" boys, without his ex or her family having any claim to them.

ETA: Oh, the connection that is often (an erroneously) made between pedophilia and "homosexuality" is one that drives me insane. There is no more connection between the two than there is between a male pedophile who rapes a little girl, and being straight. Gay people like other adults. Straight people like other adults. Pedophiles are monsters who want to hurt children. I don't even think it has much to do with sexuality. Rather, I think it has to do with domination and sadism.

 

[gitana1]

Did JP ever say anything about knowing why the fans were there? Did he put them there before he left camping with the kids?

If he didn't, does he expect us to believe that Susan who was very tired decided to do some carpet cleaning after midnight before walking away and leaving her home, husband, children and her purse indefinitely?

It came up in the Dateline special. He apparently stated the fans were there due to "routine" carpet cleaning. Really? I have placed fans on the floor to dry the carpet after cleaning it, but not on one spot. They would be placed at the front or back or sides of the room to dry all of it, not one spot.

 

[Jacie Estes]

Jacie, I'm sorry to criticize, because I don't blame you for feeling strongly about this case (and I find Josh Powell's explanations just as hard to believe as you do).

But your statement that I quote above is offensive on so many levels, I hardly know where to begin.

Castration has nothing to do with homosexuality or the closet.

Homicide isn't more commonly committed by closeted homosexuals. (At least I've never seen any data to support such a contention; it's just a cliche from B movies and pulp fiction.)

But the stereotype that homosexuals are homicidal is particularly nasty and tenacious.

Moreover, we've just heard reports that Josh may also be associated with some of the child found in the search of the Powell home. The association of child molestation with homosexuality is another untrue but hard-to-kill stereotype.

There are plenty of reasons to distrust Josh Powell. But to my knowledge, there is no reason to believe he is gay. So it would be nice if we could try to avoid leaping to that association.

...or innocent IMHO

There are stereotypes and then there is josh powell. I am basing my comments on his actions/phobias and treatment of Susan.

I will leave you to your opinions and I have mine. I will never be an advocate for josh powell.


When you search the west desert, knowing that any step may bring you closer to finding remains, it is hard to have aympathy for him.

 

[Jacie Estes]

I agree with both you and Donjeta. While no one here stated that gay people are more likely to be homicidal, or crazy, or anything else, it is a long standing stereotype that has been perpetuated by film, literature, etc., that can seem inferred when the possibility of being gay is cast in negative terms, as it seems when words like castration and wimpy are coupled with the idea of being gay.

That being said, sexual desire or the lack thereof can be a motive, when coupled with mental issues or sociopathy and religion. For example, Christopher Coleman killed his wife because he didn't want to remain married was attracted to another woman but his religion (and boss) frowned on divorce.

Likewise, it is possible that a person who is gay may get married to someone of the opposite sex who they are not in love with, because their religion believes "homosexuality" is a sin and they want to hide their identity. But, when faced with years of being with this person, cannot withstand it. If you add criminal mindedness to the equation, it could be a motive.

I don't see anything, though, that hints that this could be the case. Instead, I think josh was twisted by the generational parental alienation and misogyny in his family, is controlling and vengeful, wanted to leave her but wanted to come out looking like the good guy AND get "his" boys, without his ex or her family having any claim to them.

ETA: Oh, the connection that is often (an erroneously) made between pedophilia and "homosexuality" is one that drives me insane. There is no more connection between the two than there is between a male pedophile who rapes a little girl, and being straight. Gay people like other adults. Straight people like other adults. Pedophiles are monsters who want to hurt children. I don't even think it has much to do with sexuality. Rather, I think it has to do with domination and sadism.

I believe that josh will be found out to be a very twisted individual. All of the generalizations in the world are not applicable to every specific case. He is at least an abuser, not only of Susan but his sons. It remains to be discovered what his actions were toward his siblings as a child.

I believe that josh is either gay or bisexual; I also believe that there is an element of child abuse, either he as the perpetrator or the victim. I do not believe that he is blameless when it comes to his dad's collections. IMHO

 

[gitana1]

I believe that josh will be found out to be a very twisted individual. All of the generalizations in the world are not applicable to every specific case. He is at least an abuser, not only of Susan but his sons. It remains to be discovered what his actions were toward his siblings as a child.

I believe that josh is either gay or bisexual; I also believe that there is an element of child abuse, either he as the perpetrator or the victim. I do not believe that he is blameless when it comes to his dad's collections. IMHO

I think there may be a connection with josh and his dad's as well, as I seem to remember something about him being at the park with his dad as his dad was taking pictures.

But now I'm starting to get the sense that you are connecting pedophilia and child with homosexuality. That is a super offensive connection to make. And saying so does not equate to supporting josh.

Also, I criticize categorizing gay people as "wimpy" or having been castrated. That is also very offensive. I never forget watching a group of gay men beat the tar out of some bullies in a bar who kept harassing them.

Saying that is also not supporting josh. I think he is evil. Watching him on dateline, I felt hatred towards him and his father. I loathe them.

I do think the pair of them are sick perverts. Being gay just isn't the same thing and it hurts when those things are equated.

 

[gwenabob]

Yes, they did eat late. According to my memory, she walked with the kids to temple services that morning, and they arrived back at around noonish. I may be a little off, but something like that.

Josh stayed home so when they got back, he was making the whole family a special lunch. He did it all himself apparently, and they did not eat until around 2. I remember reading this and wondering how they kept the kids from eating immediately upon returning from their walk after temple. But apparently he made them all wait until he served them his special meal.

sbm, bbm

I agree with you, but just as an aside, so there is no confusion, Susan did not take her boys to the temple that Sunday. They went to their regular church services at their local chapel which was close enough to walk to. The temple is not only closed on Sunday, but it is not a place where Sunday services are held. And under most circumstances, children do not attend the temple until they are at least 12 years old.

 

[Jacie Estes]

sbm, bbm

I agree with you, but just as an aside, so there is no confusion, Susan did not take her boys to the temple that Sunday. They went to their regular church services at their local chapel which was close enough to walk to. The temple is not only closed on Sunday, but it is not a place where Sunday services are held. And under most circumstances, children do not attend the temple until they are at least 12 years old.

gwenabob, this is a straight walk of a few blocks from their house. In cold weather with 2 small children, it would be difficult. There is no reason that josh could not let her drive that distance, pure meaness on his part.

 

[gwenabob]

gwenabob, this is a straight walk of a few blocks from their house. In cold weather with 2 small children, it would be difficult. There is no reason that josh could not let her drive that distance, pure meaness on his part.

I agree 100%! It was quite cold, and he made them walk, even though he was home doing nothing (except planning a wonderful poisonous dinner!). Why in the world didn't she drive? Because she wasn't allowed to have a key to the family car!

ETA, now that I think about it, I wonder if Josh *did* take an important trip that Sunday morning while Susan was at church to go buy some poison or drugs like sleeping pills? Maybe he *did* need the car!

 

[Jacie Estes]

I think there may be a connection with josh and his dad's as well, as I seem to remember something about him being at the park with his dad as his dad was taking pictures.

But now I'm starting to get the sense that you are connecting pedophilia and child with homosexuality. That is a super offensive connection to make. And saying so does not equate to supporting josh.

Also, I criticize categorizing gay people as "wimpy" or having been castrated. That is also very offensive. I never forget watching a group of gay men beat the tar out of some bullies in a bar who kept harassing them.

Saying that is also not supporting josh. I think he is evil. Watching him on dateline, I felt hatred towards him and his father. I loathe them.

I do think the pair of them are sick perverts. Being gay just isn't the same thing and it hurts when those things are equated.

BBM That is an incorrect assumption. I am speaking of josh and not generalizations.

 

[francie]

I believe that josh will be found out to be a very twisted individual. All of the generalizations in the world are not applicable to every specific case. He is at least an abuser, not only of Susan but his sons. It remains to be discovered what his actions were toward his siblings as a child.

I believe that josh is either gay or bisexual; I also believe that there is an element of child abuse, either he as the perpetrator or the victim. I do not believe that he is blameless when it comes to his dad's collections. IMHO

I agree that Josh is twisted but there's nothing to indicate he had sexual relationships with men, perhaps you've read something I haven't? I strongly disagree that he's gay, I think he's an abusive controlling monster & pervert like his father is believed to be. jmo.

 

[gwenabob]

I agree that Josh is twisted but there's nothing to indicate he had sexual relationships with men, perhaps you've read something I haven't? I strongly disagree that he's gay, I think he's an abusive controlling monster & pervert like his father is believed to be. jmo.

I think some people were suspicious of Josh's sexual preference when it was brought out that he did not like to have sex with Susan. She had to beg him for it. He said he didn't like the germs. Sounds like a possible closet case of some kind to me. I guess it is possible he is interested in children instead of grown women. But I don't think he is interested in women. What man his age with a wife who left him and two little boys wouldn't have a gal pal by now? MOO.