DCA - American Airlines passenger plane collides with Blackhawk over the Potomac River, all 67 on both dead, 29 Jan 2025

[neverstoplooking]

That’s a very good question. I suppose someone would still have to oversee the big picture of all flights. But does the military have a seat in the ATC room to direct their personnel? I expect we will learn a lot in the coming days (months). Or maybe not, due to the confidential nature of military operations.

Maybe someone here will know..
Again, great observation and question.

No.

 

[Chimera]

Jan 30, 2025

Deadly DC plane-helicopter collision highlights crowded US airspace concerns | NBC4 Washington​

Video discusses change by congress last year to expand beyond perimeter rule expanding number of incoming flights/slots to Reagan National (without physical expansion).

So this probably was voted on and passed; but then they should have expanded the runways or added to the staff-- or both ?
Imo.

 

[Charlot123]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Well, Hanlon's Razor still applies. I can definitely see, looking at a busy sky video from yesterday, how accidents can happen. And while we are there, "experienced crew" means the pilots have accumulated many hours flying this helicopter. It significantly lowers the risk of an accident, because of their experience, but logically, also increases it because statistically, if you spend all your time flying, sooner or later you'll collide with some object in the sky. That is why Sully had a website discussing catastrophes long before one happened.

But
how on earth the "routine training flight" flew into collision route with a passenger plane preparing to land?

IMO
helicopters have no place in this space,
it is too congested as it is without choppers suddenly appearing.

My heart hurts for the victims and their poor families.
So many talented children

What a tragedy!

JMO

It is DC airport. It serves DC, the political center of the country. So I can see how it can combine a lot of traffic.

 

[Betty P]

On CNN, they just reported NTSB says they have found the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder of the passenger jet. They will be able to

Does anyone have insight into how elevation is determined and adjusted? Is it assigned? Is it manual entry? Etc. Appreciate any insight


“He also questioned why the helicopter and American Airlines jet were at the same elevation. He said that the American Airlines flight was on the correct path”

https://www.npr.org/2025/01/30/nx-s1-5280198/plane-crash-washington-dc-helicopter-potomac

Just saw some experts talking about this on CNN. In this case, its the pilot's responsibility to keep his altitude at 200 ft. Was he not watching his altimeter to notice they exceeded that boundary? The expert said that would be pilot error.

 

[Cryptic]

So how did the helicopter, in its corridor, get trafficked into the this flight path? Did they just disobey ATC directions? The recordings don't seem to support that so far.

My amateur guess is that nobody trafficked the helicopter in error and that helicopter pilots did not disobey the ATC.

Rather, it could likely break down into:

- ATC: Though its crowded around here, I"ll accept and permit the military helicopter to fly in this area because its with in the rules and they often do. So.... welcome Black Hawk, cross over when you can see the other plane.

- Helicopter Pilot: Yes sir. I see the other plane and am crossing over.

But... did the pilot really see that plane approaching that runway? Its night, so its easier to get disoriented. At say, 80mph the pilot only needs to be unsure for of his position for 1 minute to fly 1.25 miles in a small area.

Things then go bad, very bad....

 

[Vaderman]

the black boxes (red) will be interesting...my question is will we be told the truth?

I have very little faith the narrative that eventually is provided will be factual.

 

[SouthAussie]

Sen Tammy Duckworth (who is a former Black Hawk helicopter pilot) says that the Black Hawk's flight path should have been hugging the east bank of the Potomac, so they should not have been in the flight path of the landing aircraft.

She is wondering if one of the aircraft strayed in latitude, sideways in the airspace from the route that they were supposed to be on.

Paraphrased from .... Washington, DC, plane crash thrusts high-stakes role of air traffic control into the spotlight

 

[KariKae]

Does anyone remember the videos from Driver's Ed involving the train? There was a video where the whole car load of ppl was looking to the right, proceeded to cross the tracks, then BAM, the train hits from the left. That's how I can see this happening. The entire crew is focused on the wrong plane, then BAM, they collide with a different plane.

 

[Izzylizzy]

My amateur guess is that nobody trafficked the helicopter in error and that helicopter pilots did not disobey the ATC.

Rather, it could likely break down into:

- ATC: Though its crowded around here, I"ll accept and permit the military helicopter to fly in this area because its with in the rules and they often do. So.... welcome Black Hawk, cross over when you can see the other plane.

- Helicopter Pilot: Yes sir. I see other plane and am crossing in. But... did the pilot really see that plane approaching that runway? Its night, so its easier to get disoriented. At say, 80mph the pilot only needs to be unsure for of his position for 1 minute to fly 1.25 miles.

Things then go bad, very bad....

BBM:
Isn't that were the Army's night vision goggles enter the scene?

 

[MassGuy]

One of the Black Hawk helicopter pilots involved in yesterday's mid-air collision has been identified as Andrew Eaves

https://twitter.com/x/status/1885085714682950143

 

[Chimera]

Understaffed or just plainly over used? Why should ATC be in control of military planes/choppers when they already have potentially hundreds of normal pax on their shoulders every minute? They shouldn't. They've got enough on their shoulders. The military is meant to be the best of the best right? Where's their control? Who's watching them? No one?

Night training in urban areas is absolutely needed but you do this in CONTROLLED environments until you are confident.

Now, I have to say I'm at this point I'm a firm believer that the helo sadly had eyes on the plane that was taking off rather than the victims plane.

Bbm.
That would make sense.
Imo.

 

[Herat]

So this probably was voted on and passed; but then they should have expanded the runways or added to the staff-- or both ?
Imo.

Not much space to expand the runways unless you are going to divert the Potomac and try to fill the east side of the existing airport, which is actually Washinton DC land, not Virginia State land, so you end up with the airport in two jurisdictions.

And even then, that still does not fix the problem of the Helicopter Route 4 zoning and the presence of the two designated miltary helicopter routes that border or cross the airport, or the problem of Joint Base Anacostia-Bowling to the east of the airport on the Potomac

 

[Deleted member 352484]

The air traffic controller working at the time of the deadly plane-helicopter crash in Washington was doing the work of two people, the Federal Aviation Administration said in its preliminary report, according to the New York Times.

This led to the controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity to also be the one in charge of instructing planes landing and departing the runways. The jobs are normally assigned to two people, not one

Air traffic controller was doing the job of two people during DC plane crash due to tower being understaffed, FAA says

The air traffic controller working at the time of the deadly plane-helicopter crash in Washington was doing the work of two people, the Federal Aviation Administration said.

nypost.com

 

[Cryptic]

Sen Tammy Duckworth (who is an e former Black Hawk helicopter pilot) says that the Black Hawk's flight path should have been hugging the east bank of the Potomac, so they should not have been in the flight path of the landing aircraft.

Yikes! Though I do not doubt the Senator at all, the need to "hug the east bank" is troubling. As another poster mentioned, the area might not be the best place for commercial and military aircraft to mix.

In this case, the pilot needed to "hug" a river bank, while flying at night, while trying to determine whether he saw a certain air plane landing on a certain runway, while making sure that he did not fly into the east bank.... .

It just seems too much- espescially at night.

 

[Herat]

On CNN, they just reported NTSB says they have found the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder of the passenger jet. They will be able to


Just saw some experts talking about this on CNN. In this case, its the pilot's responsibility to keep his altitude at 200 ft. Was he not watching his altimeter to notice they exceeded that boundary? The expert said that would be pilot error.

The specified Glide Path for approaching Runway 33 is 3degrees, which means that roughly I mile out they need to be approximately 250 ft elevation +/- 50 feet for safety on the landing.

So if the helicopter needs to be at 200 ft it is still legally able to be in physical contact with a landing commerical airliner or trying to pass under it.

How can that be? How much clearance is needed if the plane and the heliopter are sharing that particular point of their paths crossing?

 

[Cryptic]

BBM:
Isn't that were the Army's night vision goggles enter the scene?

I used early night vision goggles in the National Guard driving a tank.

As another poster mentioned, those versions did not do well: flares or lights could blind the device, depth perception was bad, and color contrasts such as: Are those headlights or red warning lights? all blurred into the same green etc).

I would bet that the modern ones used for flying are far better than the early models for general usage. But.... its still night time, the air space is crowded, and as the Senator mentioned, one needs to fly a very exact route while trying to identify a certain plane.

Even with modern night vision, it seems like it does not take much to go wrong for things to go very wrong.

 

[SouthAussie]

Yikes! Though I do not doubt the Senator at all, the need to "hug the east bank" is troubling. As another poster mentioned, the area might not be the best place for commercial and military aircraft to mix.

In this case, the pilot needed to "hug" a terrain feature, while flying at night, while trying to determine whether he saw a certain air plane, while making sure that he did not fly into the east bank.... .

It just seems too much- espescialy at night.

Definitely seems as though they would have passed each other quite closely, if they had both remained - laterally - on their very precise flight path.

 

[Chimera]

Not much space to expand the runways unless you are going to divert the Potomac and try to fill the east side of the existing airport, which is actually Washinton DC land, not Virginia State land, so you end up with the airport in two jurisdictions.

And even then, that still does not fix the problem of the Helicopter Route 4 zoning and the presence of the two designated miltary helicopter routes that border or cross the airport, or the problem of Joint Base Anacostia-Bowling to the east of the airport on the Potomac

Bbm.
Yes, I keep forgetting the DC side and the Virginia side and that having two jurisdictions would clash.
So thanks for clarifying.

The bolded needs to be improved or changed if that's possible.
If everything is going to remain unchanged, hire more staff at the very least.
Too much traffic for one area.
That's my opinion only.

 

[Chimera]

Yikes! Though I do not doubt the Senator at all, the need to "hug the east bank" is troubling. As another poster mentioned, the area might not be the best place for commercial and military aircraft to mix.

In this case, the pilot needed to "hug" a terrain feature, while flying at night, while trying to determine whether he saw a certain air plane, while making sure that he did not fly into the east bank.... .

It just seems too much- espescialy at night.

Bbm.
100 %, I concur.

The logistics aside -- whether inability to restructure the airport itself, or to change staffing to a higher number, or to implement procedural improvements -- this tragedy could have been avoided, and that's the saddest part of this tragedy !
Omo.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

The US Army crew of a UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter that fatally collided with an American Airlines passenger jet on Wednesday was on a routine training flight on a well-known flight path at the time of the incident, an Army official said Thursday.

Maybe the flight path that PAT25 used needs to be done away with. It put the Blackhawk right in the approach for runway 33 which the CRJ was lined up to land on. JMO.

Flight path for Black Hawk involved in American Airlines crash wasn't complicated, Army official says

The Army official said that the pilots were on a routine training flight along a familiar flight path that isn't particularly complicated.

www.businessinsider.com