DCA - American Airlines passenger plane collides with Blackhawk over the Potomac River, all 67 on both dead, 29 Jan 2025

[Cryptic]

Quote snipped by me.
If the helicopter pilot stated they would maintain separation, what more could, or should, the AT-controller have done?

My guess is that the answer is blurry:

- Technically, the ATC is the ultimate authority regarding the air space. For safety reasons, they can deny any aircraft entry at anytime.

But.... I also suspect that on a day to day, month to month and year to year basis, it occurs exactly the way that you inferred:

- The military sets their own agenda. When they want into the airspace, they are allowed into the airspace- period. All they are required to do is acknowledge that they are aware of the other traffic and can see it.

 

[Justice101]

I agree completely- there are just too many links in the safety chain. Eventually, one of those links was going to break resulting in a disaster.

I would say your question of "What the hell was the Blackhawk doing there?" could be doubly true.

@Herat raised the possibility that the training mission could have just been a need to obtain needed flight hours- and not say, the quarterly "Mega emergency! evacuate DC VIPs- NOW!" type training.

yes agree, perfect storm:
1) At night with hundreds of lights everywhere in and around DC making it hard to pick out low altitude planes
2) Change to another runway in line with the other but much further closer to the helo
3) 1 ATC so could not do maybe what he normally might do which is micromanage aversion of 2 aircraft getting closer
4) Helo apparently 100 feet too high
5) A couple of other jets (in a clear night sky) lined up approaching runway 1 but in line with runway 33 from the perspective of the helo
6) Helo possibly using night vision which with all of the previously mentioned lights, might be overwhelming and "blowing out" the night vision sensors thus making it worse than just using the naked eye.
7) Pilots of helo apparently locked into watching the wrong jet.

 

[justtrish]

Qualified people still make mistakes.


And yet ATCs were among the federal employees who were given the option to resign and advise the administration before Feb 6 2025. How very odd when it's been known for at least two year that nearly all airports in the US are understaffed and NEED extra ATCs.

I am 100% okay with allowing some to resign if that is what they desire. Why would we want people working in these positions if they really don't want to. We need qualified people who WANT to be there in these jobs. Flight loads might need to decrease for a while so that new hires can be properly trained. Allowing people to resign does not mean that the goal is to operate with less ATC going forward.

Edited to add a few more thoughts.

We know ATC is one of the most stressful jobs and with one of the highest suicide rates. If ATCs have been staying on the job because of understaffing.. maybe feeling bad to leave their colleagues even more short staffed, then this is a good preemptive move so that those that really NEED to move on, have a way to do so. We need to hire more ATCs so seeing exactly where the target needs to be is a good idea. Allow those that need to leave to do so, get a target number of how many need to be hired to make things safe.. then do it.

Edited one more time..

The resignations are also not immediate as my understanding is they would be to make it known now that is your wish and then it's sometime in Sept. that the person would be finished working. So it seems knowing how many need to be hired would be able to be determined now before the date in Sept. when those workers would be leaving their jobs.

 

[DS2021]

dbm

 

[DS2021]

the 23 seemingly confirmed Ice skate crew victims

 

[MassGuy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1885322915291263487

 

[thelesis]

So Congress added more air traffic to this airport that was known to be extremely short staffed on ATC?!? SMH

I was reading about how Congress likes to use Reagan because of how close it is to their work. I assumed any other airport would be far away (I'm not American ok!) but Dulles is 45-60 min drive away from Capitol Hill. Like seriously? You're so self-important that you can't spend an hour making business calls on your commute? I mean they're all using chauffeurs anyway.

 

[Seattle1]

US figure skater Jon Maravilla clears up rumor about being barred from doomed DC flight

There are no expected survivors from the crash, with the plane carrying 60 passengers and four flight members and the helicopter having three people onboard.

nypost.com

Jan 30, 2025

Maravilla was scheduled to be on a Delta flight that went to Atlanta before transferring to Detroit.

 

[justtrish]

I was reading about how Congress likes to use Reagan because of how close it is to their work. I assumed any other airport would be far away (I'm not American ok!) but Dulles is 45-60 min drive away from Capitol Hill. Like seriously? You're so self-important that you can't spend an hour making business calls on your commute? I mean they're all using chauffeurs anyway.

A quick google search tells me that BWI (in Baltimore, MD) is roughly 30 miles or 45 minutes to Capitol Hill so let's just say an hour or so.. maybe a bit longer if it's rush hour and they can always choose to NOT fly in during rush hour to avoid a longer drive. Dulles is just about the same showing 42 minute drive also about 30 miles.

 

[IceIce9]

I am 100% okay with allowing some to resign if that is what they desire. Why would we want people working in these positions if they really don't want to. We need qualified people who WANT to be there in these jobs. Flight loads might need to decrease for a while so that new hires can be properly trained. Allowing people to resign does not mean that the goal is to operate with less ATC going forward.

Edited to add a few more thoughts.

We know ATC is one of the most stressful jobs and with one of the highest suicide rates. If ATCs have been staying on the job because of understaffing.. maybe feeling bad to leave their colleagues even more short staffed, then this is a good preemptive move so that those that really NEED to move on, have a way to do so. We need to hire more ATCs so seeing exactly where the target needs to be is a good idea. Allow those that need to leave to do so, get a target number of how many need to be hired to make things safe.. then do it.

Edited one more time..

The resignations are also not immediate as my understanding is they would be to make it known now that is your wish and then it's sometime in Sept. that the person would be finished working. So it seems knowing how many need to be hired would be able to be determined now before the date in Sept. when those workers would be leaving their jobs.

I worked with a man who was former ATC. He said the rate of burnout was very high, and even though the pay was excellent he had to resign after 5 years because it was so stressful.

 

[Elley Mae]

FAA embroiled in lawsuit alleging it turned away 1,000 applicants based on race — that contributed to staffing woes

Complaints about the FAA’s hiring policies resurfaced after the American Airlines passenger plane and a Black Hawk helicopter crashed in Washington, DC, on Wednesday, killing 67 people in the…

nypost.com

 

[Elley Mae]

Supervisor let air traffic controller leave shift early before DC plane collision: report

A supervisor at the Reagan National Airport tower reportedly let an air traffic controller leave early from his shift shortly before Wednesday night’s deadly collision over the Potomac River.

nypost.com

 

[bestill]

I was reading about how Congress likes to use Reagan because of how close it is to their work. I assumed any other airport would be far away (I'm not American ok!) but Dulles is 45-60 min drive away from Capitol Hill. Like seriously? You're so self-important that you can't spend an hour making business calls on your commute? I mean they're all using chauffeurs anyway.

At our regional airport they have designated parking places at the front entrance. We have elite and entitled leaders, that we pay for! Half the time the parking spots are empty. Your assessment is accurate. All JMO

 

[Arkay]

We’ve only ever driven to D.C., so I’m ignorant of the airports there.

I’ve learned from all the MSM and from those of you who are familiar with the airports there that Reagan Airport does seem to be antiquated.

Short runways and military flights co-mingled in a small airspace does seem like a recipe for disaster, particularly when there is understaffing in vital areas. Plus the frozen zone over the White House and Capitol likely squeezes too much traffic into a small corridor.

I tried to superimpose in my mind that airport compared to mine, which is JFK. They don’t match up. There is a problem here with Canadian geese that can cause bird strikes, and there is water near the airport, but the runways and taxiways seem sufficient.

I don’t know if it’s true or not true that the politicians wanted Reagan to stay open because it’s convenient for them.

JFK has been a misery this past year because there is widespread construction in two terminals, which causes bottlenecks everywhere, but now I’m relieved because if it’s needed then it’s needed.

JMO

 

[bestill]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1885322915291263487

Does it look to you all like the black hawk dipped lower towards the airline?

 

[bmacmillan1]

I worked with a man who was former ATC. He said the rate of burnout was very high, and even though the pay was excellent he had to resign after 5 years because it was so stressful.

I see the retirement age in US for an ATC is 56. Makes sense

 

[Elley Mae]

Does it look to you all like the black hawk dipped lower towards the airline?

Yes, it appears that the chopper did dip into the plane.

Still waiting for pilot to be ID’d.

 

[Dotta]

I see the retirement age in US for an ATC is 56. Makes sense

In my country (in Europe)

"an air traffic controller is on duty for 7.5 hours,
of which 5.5 hours are spent at the operational position.

After every two hours of work,
controllers are entitled to a mandatory one-hour break for rest.

They can have a maximum of four such shifts,
one after the other,
then they have a 48-hour break."

Polacy rzucili się na to stanowisko. Płacą krocie, a nie trzeba studiów

Polska Agencja Żeglugi Powietrznej szkoli nowych kontrolerów ruchu lotniczego. Agencja nie wymaga wyższego wykształcenia, lecz niezbędna jest odporność na stres. Jak podaje PAŻP, chętnych na stanowisko nie brakuje.

finanse.wp.pl

 

[branmuffin]

I am 100% okay with allowing some to resign if that is what they desire. Why would we want people working in these positions if they really don't want to. We need qualified people who WANT to be there in these jobs. Flight loads might need to decrease for a while so that new hires can be properly trained. Allowing people to resign does not mean that the goal is to operate with less ATC going forward.

Edited to add a few more thoughts.

We know ATC is one of the most stressful jobs and with one of the highest suicide rates. If ATCs have been staying on the job because of understaffing.. maybe feeling bad to leave their colleagues even more short staffed, then this is a good preemptive move so that those that really NEED to move on, have a way to do so. We need to hire more ATCs so seeing exactly where the target needs to be is a good idea. Allow those that need to leave to do so, get a target number of how many need to be hired to make things safe.. then do it.

Edited one more time..

The resignations are also not immediate as my understanding is they would be to make it known now that is your wish and then it's sometime in Sept. that the person would be finished working. So it seems knowing how many need to be hired would be able to be determined now before the date in Sept. when those workers would be leaving their jobs.

There are too many strings attached to the voluntary resigning. And it takes a hell of a lot longer to train ATC's than 8 months. Working with the threat of firing, no matter what profession you are in, takes a toll on your physical and mental wellbeing, which means you aren't at the top of your game. When your job holds people's lives in the balance, that is terrifying.

 

[Jade]

I am 100% okay with allowing some to resign if that is what they desire. Why would we want people working in these positions if they really don't want to. We need qualified people who WANT to be there in these jobs. Flight loads might need to decrease for a while so that new hires can be properly trained. Allowing people to resign does not mean that the goal is to operate with less ATC going forward.

Edited to add a few more thoughts.

We know ATC is one of the most stressful jobs and with one of the highest suicide rates. If ATCs have been staying on the job because of understaffing.. maybe feeling bad to leave their colleagues even more short staffed, then this is a good preemptive move so that those that really NEED to move on, have a way to do so. We need to hire more ATCs so seeing exactly where the target needs to be is a good idea. Allow those that need to leave to do so, get a target number of how many need to be hired to make things safe.. then do it.

Edited one more time..

The resignations are also not immediate as my understanding is they would be to make it known now that is your wish and then it's sometime in Sept. that the person would be finished working. So it seems knowing how many need to be hired would be able to be determined now before the date in Sept. when those workers would be leaving their jobs.

Do people have to be allowed to resign?

Where’s any evidence ATC work there if they didn’t WANT to?

These are highly intelligent professionals with plenty of options, imo.

The ATC’s expect a high turnover rate themselves because of the meticulous attention to tasks needed, calm nature and ability to visualize in dimensions, etc. but many carry on capable and dedicated.

The Most Stressful Job In The World? What it’s Really Like To Be An Air Traffic Controller

An air traffic controller stares in confusion at his screen, while his colleagues start shouting instructions at him and running over to watch the unfolding situation. Just another day for an air traffic controller in what is called the most stressful job in the world?

www.forbes.com

ATC have marketable skills and like anyone else with expertise choose jobs based on personal preferences, imo.

I strongly disagree that ATC are lesser than and not capable of managing their own lives.

Or recognizing that there is a plan by the USDOT, or there was, including 2024 bipartisan funding:

The Transportation Department said in August it had hired 1,500 controllers for the 2023 budget year. Whitaker said Monday it expects to exceed its 2024 goal of hiring 1,800.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-wants-hire-2000-air-traffic-controllers-2025-2024-03-11/

"Most people don't understand that lots of people in the military go into civil service because they want to continue to serve," he says.

https://www.npr.org/2025/01/31/nx-s1-5280417/federal-workers-workforce-facts-cuts

all imo