DCA - American Airlines passenger plane collides with Blackhawk over the Potomac River, all 67 on both dead, 29 Jan 2025

[Chimera]

If that person was in control and it was flying at wrong altitude and on the wrong path their name should be front and center, and not remain anonymous.

Jmo

At some point in time it may be.

Question : Wouldn't the military (as it has it's own justice system and laws) be able to keep the person's name secret for as long as deemed necessary ?
IF it was pilot error, this makes the military look as if there were mistakes made, and maybe they don't want to release this to the public but handle it internally.
I don't know if this is possible, just throwing it out there.
Since all three military personnel are deceased, there wouldn't be the same investigation as there would be if they survived ?

Possibly some questions for the higher-ups in charge of the three deceased military -- from the family members of both the heli. and the plane.
Sorry I don't know what rank of military the three heli. soldiers would answer to.
If the highest one was a captain, then Major, Lt. Colonel, and Colonel ?

Starting think it might have been more helicopter error, than the ATC ?
From the videos it appeared that the heli. was nearly at the same level as the plane, shouldn't they have been at a lower altitude ?

Still an accident, imo -- and still a tremendous tragedy.
From my previous link :

DC plane crash black boxes found as staff shortage claims examined

The collision between a passenger plane and a military helicopter is suspected to have killed all 67 onboard.

www.bbc.com

The black boxes for a passenger plane that hit a military helicopter above Washington DC have been found, as questions mount about staffing and close calls at the airport where the plane was landing.
Rbm.

 

[bestill]

I have mixed feelings about the third pilot's identity not being released. If it's for a period of time, then I understand. My thoughts are with the victims, their loved ones, along with the other pilots whose names and personal information has already been released. Did they have the option of holding off? I am sure their loved ones are suffering too. I don't expect the third to stay unknown for long. This isn't a private company pilot, this is a military pilot, I believe in the long run our government will decide what will be known and not known.

 

[PrairieWind]

At some point in time it may be.

Question : Wouldn't the military (as it has it's own justice system and laws) be able to keep the person's name secret for as long as deemed necessary ?
IF it was pilot error, this makes the military look as if there were mistakes made, and maybe they don't want to release this to the public but handle it internally.
I don't know if this is possible, just throwing it out there.
Since all three military personnel are deceased, there wouldn't be the same investigation as there would be if they survived ?

Possibly some questions for the higher-ups in charge of the three deceased military -- from the family members of both the heli. and the plane.
Sorry I don't know what rank of military the three heli. soldiers would answer to.
If the highest one was a captain, then Major, Lt. Colonel, and Colonel ?

Starting think it might have been more helicopter error, than the ATC ?
From the videos it appeared that the heli. was nearly at the same level as the plane, shouldn't they have been at a lower altitude ?

Still an accident, imo -- and still a tremendous tragedy.
From my previous link :

DC plane crash black boxes found as staff shortage claims examined

The collision between a passenger plane and a military helicopter is suspected to have killed all 67 onboard.

www.bbc.com

The black boxes for a passenger plane that hit a military helicopter above Washington DC have been found, as questions mount about staffing and close calls at the airport where the plane was landing.
Rbm.

The crash involved a collision with a civilian aircraft. So that information including identities of the pilots will have to be given to NTSB and local authorities. I suspect the name will be released in a day or so regardless of the families wishes, simply because it is going to come out anyway. Whether the Army releases the name may be moot, since other agencies may do so. The other two crew members names are known.

I think it is becoming pretty clear that primary fault is going to fall on those helicopter pilots. They were too high and did not correctly execute visual separation for whatever reason.

 

[Seattle1]

So the vanity and comfort of diginitaires and government officals comes before the absolute safety of the public, the flight crew and cabin crew professionals and the dignity and honor of the ATC personnel?

I'd say the priorites are all wrong

All the more reason to close DCA to commercial use and transfer it to the government. The reality is the US Military in and around DC are not going away. JMO

 

[IceIce9]

totally agree..but what i dont understand is..if the plane broke in 3 pieces in waist high water (i've read) and it was belly side up...why were there no survivors? i may not be getting this right but its not making sense to me.

I would guess due to the impact of the collision.

JMO

 

[Sundog]

There are too many strings attached to the voluntary resigning. And it takes a hell of a lot longer to train ATC's than 8 months. Working with the threat of firing, no matter what profession you are in, takes a toll on your physical and mental wellbeing, which means you aren't at the top of your game. When your job holds people's lives in the balance, that is terrifying.

It's likely not legal to exempt certain federal employees from voluntary resignation programs. We've had a few of these programs over the years at universities I'm familiar with, and their are legal requirements that must be met when you offer these kinds of programs.

Also, the decisions to participate in these programs are unique to the individuals involved, it is a windfall for many, and for those who aren't interested, it can be ignored.

 

[sunshineray]

I think it's a fair question.
Agreed re. the other families need answers about how this happened.
Not saying the public needs to know everything.

On the other hand that air carrier needs to reassure people that it's safe to fly with them and that the cause of the tragedy will be addressed asap.
Which I think they're working on it even as we speak.

I am horrified that there's a possibility some bodies may not be recovered, due to the river currents, etc.
Hoping that's not the case.
May the emergency responders and divers stay safe !
Certainly they're well-trained, but until you're doing the recovery you don't always know how much it'll affect you.
There could be some ptsd in the weeks or months ahead.
Imo.

That was quite an explosive collision though, some may be irretrievable?

 

[Arkay]

totally agree..but what i dont understand is..if the plane broke in 3 pieces in waist high water (i've read) and it was belly side up...why were there no survivors? i may not be getting this right but its not making sense to me.

Have you seen this video of the crash that was posted up thread?

I agree @Jade —it was impossible for anyone to survive because first, there’s the collision of the two aircraft. Second, both aircraft were consumed in that fireball. Third, the impact of hitting the water. And fourth, the freezing conditions of the river.

IMO no one was likely alive after the second deadly incident, that being the fire.

JMO

 

[IceIce9]

I read Arthur Hailey’s book “Airport” when I was a teenager and it convinced me that I would never want to work as ATC.

 

[Joe Friday]

I agree @Jade——it was impossible for anyone to survive because first, there’s the collision of the two aircraft. Second, both aircraft were consumed in that fireball. Third, the impact of hitting the water. And fourth, the freezing conditions of the river.

IMO no one was likely alive after the second deadly incident, that being the fire.

JMO

I don't think the plane burned that much. The water put out the flames. Pictures of the wreck in the water show parts of the plane that are not burned.

 

[Warwick1991]

I don't think the plane burned that much. The water put out the flames. Pictures of the wreck in the water show parts of the plane that are not burned.

Click on link for picture:

https://www.usatoday.com/gcdn/autho...33&height=1156&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp

In addition to the water, it's likely the fuel burned off right after impact. There's fuel in the river, too.

 

[Seattle1]

DC plane crash updates: Remains of 55 victims recovered and positively identified

An American Airlines regional jet went down in the Potomac River near Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport.

abcnews.go.com

Jan 31, 2025​

41 sets of remains have been recovered​

Forty-one sets of remains have been recovered and 28 of those victims have been positively identified, Washington, D.C., Fire and EMS Chief John Donnelly Sr. said at a news conference Friday.

[..]

All 67 people on board the plane and the helicopter were killed in the Wednesday night crash.

Donnelly said crews expect to recover all of the bodies.

It appears crews will need to remove the plane fuselage from the river to recover the remaining victims, he said.

Salvage work on removing aircraft from the water will start as early as Saturday, he said.

Fire and EMS has received 911 calls from people who spotted debris in the water; body parts have not been recovered from those 911 calls, he added.

 

[Chimera]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1885322915291263487

From BNO news on Twitter/X : A clearer view of the impact.
The sky looks lighter and it appears that the chopper had all of the required running (?) lights on .
The first videos it seemed to be in a straight line but it this clip it appears to angle downwards a bit ?
Mechanical malfunction ?

Hopefully looking at the flight data of the helicopter will yield some results.
Imo.

 

[Herat]

NTSB conference:

Both the FDR and Voice Data Recorder from the plane have been visually inspected and it appears that they will be able extract data from them, although it will take some time to validate and verify data points. The VDR had water intrusion, but the NTSB believes they will recover the information.

The Sikorsky helicopter has a voice recorder and a data recorder in the same housing and it has been recovered. It appears intact and they expect to be able to recover data from it.

The NTSB spokeman emphasized that the NTSB never releases the flight manifests or name of the involved and they will not change that policy for this accident. All information about manifests or names is released by others, not under control of the NTSB.

 

[ekc]

Not sure of the altitude, but they fell from at least 200 feet, which is like falling from a 20-story building (generally speaking). Sadly, you don't survive that.

MOO.

ETA: Plus the forces of the impact of both aircraft colliding, plus the forces of hitting the surface of the water (& the riverbed). Not to mention the big flash/ignition, which seems like it might have been the fuel (in the wings) igniting. It's a lot.

good point but they would all or most be strapped in..from what has been reported about sst challenger...they survived when they hit the water etc...there could have been 1 just 1 ...please dont take this as disagreement its more i try hard to justify one action when another of a similar way have different outcomes...

 

[IceIce9]

The name of the last Blackhawk pilot should be released for full transparency. The longer the delay people will begin begin to suspect a coverup.

CNN - Breaking News, Latest News and Videos

View the latest news and breaking news today for U.S., world, weather, entertainment, politics and health at CNN.com.

www.cnn.com

Flight data appears to show helicopter was 100 feet above maximum altitude and veering off course before it collided with jet

• Investigation into DC plane and helicopter collision looking at potential mistakes in
  'no margin for error' situation

 

[Arkay]

I read Arthur Hailey’s book “Airport” when I was a teenager and it convinced me that I would never want to work as ATC.

When my former husband wanted to train as an ATC after Reagan fired them all, I ended up pregnant shortly thereafter. He abandoned his quest for that job due to the crazy and irregular hours he’d have to work. We were only 23 and 24 at the time, but he didn’t feel that was a good job when he was going to become a father and I agreed.

It is a job that demands a lot of skill, patience, spatial awareness, split-second decision making, and working hours that are not conducive to a young family.

I’m certain there are many parents who work ATC, but it wasn’t going to be a good fit for us.

JMO and JME

 

[IceIce9]

When my former husband wanted to train as an ATC after Reagan fired them all, I ended up pregnant shortly thereafter. He abandoned his quest for that job due to the crazy and irregular hours he’d have to work. We were only 23 and 24 at the time, but he didn’t feel that was a good job when he was going to become a father and I agreed.

It is a job that demands a lot of skill, patience, spatial awareness, split-second decision making, and working hours that are not conducive to a young family.

I’m certain there are many parents who work ATC, but it wasn’t going to be a good fit for us.

JMO and JME

The coworker I referred to upthread had only worked as ATC for six years after his training was completed before resigning. Too much stress.

 

[cledco]

They were equipped with night vision goggles too. Were these analogue or digital? I saw a brilliant post from a military pilot on this subject this morning, sharing just how bad flare can be especially in co largely urban areas where lights are all over the place, unfortunately it was on reddit so unshareable here.

But I was just having a look at this website and wonder what they were using.
Advantages and Disadvantages of Digital Night Vision Systems

Disadvantages of Digital Night Vision Systems​

They can also be more susceptible to glare compared to analogue systems. Glare occurs when bright light sources, such as streetlights or headlights, appear as bright spots or streaks in the image, reducing visibility and potentially affecting the user’s ability to discern important details. While some digital systems have glare reduction features, it is still worth considering the potential for glare when using these systems, especially in urban environments or areas with a high concentration of artificial lighting.

Image Lag and Delay​

Digital night vision systems may experience image lag and delay, particularly when capturing fast-moving objects or in dynamic environments. This lag or delay can affect the real-time viewing experience, making it challenging to track or respond quickly to changes in the surroundings.

Advantages of Analogue Night Vision Systems​

Higher Resistance to Glare​

Compared to digital systems, analogue night vision systems generally exhibit higher resistance to glare caused by bright light sources. The mechanisms used in analogue systems to capture and amplify light are less susceptible to distortion and artifacts from glare, ensuring a clearer and more consistent image quality. This resistance to glare can be advantageous in various situations, particularly in urban environments or areas with intense artificial lighting.

Real-Time Image​

One of the notable advantages of analogue night vision systems is the real-time image viewing experience they provide.

Apologies if this constitutes derailment but didn't look like anyone had addressed this specifically.

Digital NODs that aren't chintzy garbage are a relatively new and immature technology. With the exception of maybe some law enforcement entities using them for static observation they're still stuck in the commercial sphere. Whatever issued model the crew were flying under would have been analog.

I have hundreds of hours driving under NODs. It does 'flatten out' your vision, significantly reducing your depth perception, there are issues of fixed focus distance, tunnel vision and bloom, but that's with monocular devices that are of a design now nearly 30 years old. The binocular (or maybe they've moved on to panoramic, I haven't kept up and I'm not sure what will interface with the latest flight helmets as opposed to bump or ballistic lids meant for ground use) types used for aviation are designed with this in mind and mitigate these effects as much as possible.

Tl;dr It's possible that not flying with the naked eye played a part in this but at least just as likely it did not. Whatever the case, the inherent limitations of the current state of digital image intensifiers had nothing to do with it.

 

[Arkay]

I don't think the plane burned that much. The water put out the flames. Pictures of the wreck in the water show parts of the plane that are not burned.

My thought is that people, flesh and blood and a need to breathe, would perish long before a metallic aircraft.

Also all MSM reported that there were body parts in the river.

It doesn’t matter though, none of us need to be right or wrong as it’s a moot point.

Everyone died.