Dead Folks and Decomp *WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS IN OPENING POST*#2

[Harmony 2]

A measure called the accumulated degree days, or ADDs, is a method of accounting for the number of days of decomposition at a particular temperature. A measure of 700 would give a specific set of signs of decomposition, but it would have occurred at a certain number of days at one temperature and fewer days at a higher temperature, where the rate of decay would be accelerated. In Body Farm experiments, ADDs were measured from the moment of death, which was known, of the bodies donated to the facility. When a body was being investigated, this knowledge was applied using local climate data and the state of the body. This kind of data helps reveal time of death in the circumstances of the crime.

http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/body-farm

 

[Tuffy]

for the link....just right click on the high lighted link and copy and paste it

...or use the button that has a picture of a globe with a chain. It's right under the smiley.

 

[Harmony 2]

It just does not make sense to me that it is adipocere.

If I said that my son and I were playing with a tennis ball like ball. I would assume that meant it was not a tennis ball.

Here are some of the things that are questionable to me in my opinion.:

1: If I were a Dr and analysing the napkins in a lab enviroment, why not just go ahead and confirm what the adipocere like substance is? (perhaps trace amounts are left for the fbi to determine)
2: 2.6 days is kind of a long shot to develop adipocere.
3: How do we wipe up adipocere off of the carpet without leaving any adipocere on the carpet?, meanwhile leaving dirt oil and gas and vfa?
4:Why would this not soak through the carpet and saturate the metal below the carpet?
5: Why is the state waiting so long to release this information? They have known about this adipocere like substance for over a year now. Surely they would have had it tested to determine what is was.
My conclusion is that this is not adipocere from a human being, not even sure if it is adipocere.
None of what I stated is stated as fact. Just speculation and just my opinion.

page 16
http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19801995.pdf

#3 States the adipocere ratios were consistent with human decomposition.

If I were a doctor and the substance was bacon and not associated to the objective of the results being written, I would state the adipocere was unrelated. The logical conclusion is that the information was included because it was pertinent to the forensic evidence in this case. Therefore, #3 in the conclusions of the paper states definitively the adipocere was consistent with human decomposition.

The adipocere does not leak it is a film like substance. If Caylee was wrapped in her blanket and later bagged the adipocere would not have gotten on the trunk liner. There was no adipocere on the trunk carpet or liner. The paper towels could have been used when tranferring the remains to the bags or to wipe adipocere off of hands.

 

[CuriousTwo]

KC did not have TL's truck until after she ditched her car at Amscot. If you go back and read in this thread you will see it is highly unlikely Caylee was in his truck. After 2.6 days in KC's trunk the smell was awful.

Didn't TL have a Jeep Wrangler? I don't recall that it was a truck (with a bed) but I could be mistaken. I'll look back at interviews. Sorry - thinking out loud!

Update: I think I found my answer - seems it was a Jeep Cherokee (SUV). No bed. I could see her putting Caylee's body in the back of a truck or a car trunk, but not in the passenger compartment. Of course, anyone's capable of anything and she may very well have done that.



Christopher Stutz "saw Casey a few times in May and June 2008, and on June 17, she came to his house, driving a dark-colored Jeep Cherokee."
<snipped>
http://www.cfnews13.com/Features/CaseyAnthony/KeyPlayers/Witnesses.aspx

 

[BeenaBobba]

I give up on simple term searches. We need a forensic scientist or medical examiner's access to research. That is all I can find. Maybe some of this is published in terms I am just not putting in.

I'm definitely not a forensic scientist, but I do have Spitz and Fisher's Medicolegal Investigation of Death, which is pretty much the bible of forensics, so maybe I can look a few things up over the next couple of days.

 

[BeenaBobba]

I heard this a while back and didn't see a thread where it should go in.

I have heard that if you want to find out what a dead decomposing body smells like, to clip a fingernail and burn it. It allegedly doesn't smell exactly like a decomposing body, but is supposed to be close. And the smell is pervasive. And yes, I tried it.

Now I'm gonna have to try it! LOL. I've also heard that human decomposition smells a bit like rotten potatoes. Human decomp smells much worse, of course, but I've heard the smell is somewhat close.

 

[BeenaBobba]

sorry ....so sorry to ask this....but should we list days of decomp and then try and link a pic and info to it?

No need to be sorry. You're curious about a biological process and how it applies to a criminal case. Nothing wrong with that. As gory as decomposition is, it's something that will happen to all of us sooner or later.

I was not able to find pictures for each day of decomposition, and I suspect pinpointing it that precisely wouldn't be of much help, as bodies decompose at different rates due to different environmental factors. For example, how one body may look on day ten of decomposition could possibly be a lot different from another body on the same day of decomposition. What I did find, however, is a time lapse video of a woman decomposing at what I think is the UT Body Farm. Unfortunately, there are no time stamps, so it's impossible to tell how many days/weeks/months have gone by over the course of the video. Warning: It is VERY graphic.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxT-IPvLKB0[/ame]

 

[DaughterAlice]

egads. I think I'll opt for cremation.

Interesting video . . . . and disturbing. I hate, hate, hate the thought of what poor Caylee's beautiful little body went through.

 

[Reagan]

egads. I think I'll opt for cremation.

Interesting video . . . . and disturbing. I hate, hate, hate the thought of what poor Caylee's beautiful little body went through.

I agree with everything you've said. Sometime last year, after watching the time lapse video of the pig decomposing (which I also think is from the body farm), I knew right then that I want to be cremated, and informed my family.

I recall reading somewhere that a child's body decomposes significantly faster than an adult, but I can't remember where, so I will have to look it up when I get home from work later.

Someone asked earlier in this thread about what condition Caylee would have been in when KC put her in trash bags and/or disposed of her. I honestly think (I feel sick typing this) that she was already bloating.. tongue protruding, fluids leaking (hence the stain), young maggot infestation (on the paper towels and in the trash bag)..The putrefaction stage.
I think that KC initially laid her in the trunk, possibly only in that pooh blanket, and didn't really take into consideration what happens to a body after death. After 2 days or so, once the smell started to appear, I believe that's when she bagged innocent Caylee and disposed of her shortly thereafter.

This is just my opinion based on what little details we know, and obviously shouldn't be taken as fact.
I do hope that whatever stage she seen Caylee in, that the image is forever burned in her mind. I hope she has night sweats for the rest of her worthless life.

 

[notthatsmart]

page 16
http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19801995.pdf

#3 States the adipocere ratios were consistent with human decomposition.

If I were a doctor and the substance was bacon and not associated to the objective of the results being written, I would state the adipocere was unrelated. The logical conclusion is that the information was included because it was pertinent to the forensic evidence in this case. Therefore, #3 in the conclusions of the paper states definitively the adipocere was consistent with human decomposition.

The adipocere does not leak it is a film like substance. If Caylee was wrapped in her blanket and later bagged the adipocere would not have gotten on the trunk liner. There was no adipocere on the trunk carpet or liner. The paper towels could have been used when tranferring the remains to the bags or to wipe adipocere off of hands.

bold 1: The logical conclusion to me is that it was of food origin, since it did come from a kitchen garbage bag with food in it. It also was a napkin or paper towel which job it is to wipe up or off food.

bold 2: That one I am confused on. I thought adipocere was a substance that sat at the bottom or below the fat that the decomp drained through. It doesn't become adipocere quickly. Not sure but I don't think you could wipe adipocere from the hands. I think you could wipe decomp from the hands and it could eventually form into adipocere. Correct me if I am wrong here.

In theory, if it was actually adipocere from a human being, then that would probably be the smoking gun. I can't for the life of me figure out why Dr Vass didn't make the determination in his final report. Or send it on to the Fbi to determine it. They probably did and they probably know. Now why they wouldn't release that smoking gun is beyond me. Thats why that theory doesn't work for me. If they had that smoking gun, the plea would have come a long time ago.

None of what I stated is stated as fact. Everything I say is of my opinon only.

 

[Bittiness39]

I would only imagine, given the missing child, the child that KC wouldn't let her parents speak to for month...that likely the decomp analyzed in the trunk is that of Caylee. Which is sad for so many reasons. Not the least of which, KC, was not an underprivileged scared girl. She was a spoiled rotten...well fill in the blanks...rhymes with witch.

 

[Harmony 2]

my responses in bolded red:

bold 1: The logical conclusion to me is that it was of food origin, since it did come from a kitchen garbage bag with food in it. It also was a napkin or paper towel which job it is to wipe up or off food.

#3 States the adipocere ratios were consistent with human decomposition.

bold 2: That one I am confused on. I thought adipocere was a substance that sat at the bottom or below the fat that the decomp drained through. It doesn't become adipocere quickly. Not sure but I don't think you could wipe adipocere from the hands. I think you could wipe decomp from the hands and it could eventually form into adipocere. Correct me if I am wrong here.

You can view what adipocere looks like in this video: (Note it is extremely graphic and not for the squeamish)

(can view adipocere at the following timestamps :02; 1:35; 1:44; 1:52; 1:58; 2:06)
http://video.nationalgeographic.com...-human-body-sci/human-body/body-farm-sci.html

Mods please let me know if the video is too graphic and I will delete.

In theory, if it was actually adipocere from a human being, then that would probably be the smoking gun. I can't for the life of me figure out why Dr Vass didn't make the determination in his final report. Or send it on to the Fbi to determine it. They probably did and they probably know. Now why they wouldn't release that smoking gun is beyond me. Thats why that theory doesn't work for me. If they had that smoking gun, the plea would have come a long time ago.

Page one of the link provided says it is a final report at the top. I agree it is pretty damning evidence IMO.

None of what I stated is stated as fact. Everything I say is of my opinon only.

 

[Nore]

I agree with everything you've said. Sometime last year, after watching the time lapse video of the pig decomposing (which I also think is from the body farm), I knew right then that I want to be cremated, and informed my family.

I recall reading somewhere that a child's body decomposes significantly faster than an adult, but I can't remember where, so I will have to look it up when I get home from work later.

Someone asked earlier in this thread about what condition Caylee would have been in when KC put her in trash bags and/or disposed of her. I honestly think (I feel sick typing this) that she was already bloating.. tongue protruding, fluids leaking (hence the stain), young maggot infestation (on the paper towels and in the trash bag)..The putrefaction stage.
I think that KC initially laid her in the trunk, possibly only in that pooh blanket, and didn't really take into consideration what happens to a body after death. After 2 days or so, once the smell started to appear, I believe that's when she bagged innocent Caylee and disposed of her shortly thereafter.

This is just my opinion based on what little details we know, and obviously shouldn't be taken as fact.
I do hope that whatever stage she seen Caylee in, that the image is forever burned in her mind. I hope she has night sweats for the rest of her worthless life.

---------------
I agree with you. I do not think she had any idea what happens when a person dies.This may be why it seemed to set her off when Ashton spoke as he did.Could you imagine her horror when she realized what she did? She didnt care,but didnt want to be reminded of it.My ex Boss is a Funeral Director well known in Cleveland,Nick told me about the rotten potato odor.Now remember this is not a normal "rotten potato" but one that has laid around and is different colors and mushy.We found one in the store,was lost in the shuffle.The whole one end of the store stunk enough to make one :sick:
that is how the subject came up....I dont think anyone decomps this way if they have been emballmed.For one thing the embalmer uses a rod to place a hole in each organ releasing any gas...no bloating.IMO

ETA.There was adipocere on one of Caylees'leg bones.It is stated in the autopsy by the Coroner Doctor Garvaglia.It could have started to form in the trunk and was wiped up with the paper towels.They also found decomp on the paper towels.This is stated in the forensics.

 

[Tuffy]

bold 1: The logical conclusion to me is that it was of food origin, since it did come from a kitchen garbage bag with food in it. It also was a napkin or paper towel which job it is to wipe up or off food.

bold 2: That one I am confused on. I thought adipocere was a substance that sat at the bottom or below the fat that the decomp drained through. It doesn't become adipocere quickly. Not sure but I don't think you could wipe adipocere from the hands. I think you could wipe decomp from the hands and it could eventually form into adipocere. Correct me if I am wrong here.

In theory, if it was actually adipocere from a human being, then that would probably be the smoking gun. I can't for the life of me figure out why Dr Vass didn't make the determination in his final report. Or send it on to the Fbi to determine it. They probably did and they probably know. Now why they wouldn't release that smoking gun is beyond me. Thats why that theory doesn't work for me. If they had that smoking gun, the plea would have come a long time ago.

None of what I stated is stated as fact. Everything I say is of my opinon only.

Ok, I'll correct you.

The adipocere is what fatty tissue will turn into in certain conditions. It is described as grave wax, so I don't think it is liquid in consistency. I think it could be wiped, just not in same way as something watery, though.

We found documentation of adipocere forming as quickly as two weeks, but not sure about the time for a child to decompose. It is said that small bodies will decompose more quickly.

I don't know if this helps, or makes it more confusing. Maybe someone else might be able to explain more clearly.

 

[Tuffy]

my responses in bolded red:

Thanks for the video link, Harmony2. While pretty graphic, it had some real good information and examples of adipocere.

 

[christee]

This post has a brief scientific explanation of Adipose Tissue/Adipocere and the report from Dr. Vass:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4515949&postcount=145"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - MythBuster Thread Discussion Area[/ame]

 

[BeenaBobba]

I recall reading somewhere that a child's body decomposes significantly faster than an adult, but I can't remember where, so I will have to look it up when I get home from work later.

I'm not sure that that is correct. In Medicolegal Investigation of Death, it says that putrefaction is more rapid in the obese, and that it's significantly slower in infants and in thin people.

 

[Tuffy]

I'm not sure that that is correct. In Medicolegal Investigation of Death, it says that putrefaction is more rapid in the obese, and that it's significantly slower in infants and in thin people.

So thin people and infants decompose more slowly? I would have thought the opposite.

 

[BeenaBobba]

So thin people and infants decompose more slowly? I would have thought the opposite.

I would have thought the same, too. What's frustrating is that Medicolegal Investigation of Death doesn't really explain why that is. I'll try to research a bit further, though.

 

[BeanE]

I'm not an expert by any means, but as I understand it, putrefaction is a part of decomposition. So maybe whereas putrefaction is slower, overall decomposition is more rapid?