Dead Folks and Decomp *WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS IN OPENING POST*#2

[gngr~snap]

Small amounts of THC and Cannibinol on the paper towels as well?

Leads me to assume she smoked a joint and moved caylee's decomposing body
Liquid courage in smoke form Casey? Shame on you.

Who knows? Maybe she was trying to "smoke out" the smell... or cover it somehow...probably smells better than death... too bad that didn't work.

Thank God for "junk science"! it will explain a LOT!

 

[AZlawyer]

I will agree that everything Dr. Vass stated in his report is possible. This includes the 0.7 to 2.6 days, the Adipocere, the air sample, the decomp odor, the coffin flies, etc. etc. etc., and the last possibility is that it should be noted the decomp event may have been from something other than human origin.

I can totally understand how many people can believe it was Adipocere, coffin flies etc. It states all these things are possible in Dr. Vass’s report. I believe all those things are possible. I also believe it is possible that the decomp event may have been cause from something other than human origin, which if that is what caused the decomp event, then none of the other possiblities hold true.

To me that puts the Dr. Vass report in the maybe, maybe not category, which is reasonable doubt. As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

Reasonable doubt does not mean you can think of some possible alternative explanation for each individual item of evidence. It means that you can think of some reasonable alternative explanation that fits all items of evidence.

 

[RainyGirl]

Have I mentioned how much I appreciate the "Mythbusters" thread above?

Here are a few linked posts that I found helpful.

#9: There was no pizza in the trunk of Casey's car

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3196543&postcount=9"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Myth Busters and Facts *LIST ONLY* NO DISCUSSION NO DISCUSSION[/ame]


#36: There was no meat or any other food products in the trash bag

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4655974&postcount=36"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Myth Busters and Facts *LIST ONLY* NO DISCUSSION NO DISCUSSION[/ame]

 

[Aedrys]

In the event of a smothering, duct tape across nose and mouth where the child can not breath, there would be no blood involved. The only way that blood should be present is if their was a wound that bled such as a gash, gunshot wound, etc. When Dr. G examined poor Caylee's remains there was no sign of those types of wounds on the bones. So it is not surprising to me that no blood was found in the car as I would not expect any to be found to begin with.

ITA, and there's also the fact that this is an imperfect crime scene because the trunk was cleaned by CA and GA. This is evidenced by the large amount of chloroform, which can be attributed to cleaning chemicals. Also, Cindy admitted to washing Casey's clothes, which were IN the car. So to keep arguing about what isn't there is pointless. Had this been perfectly preserved, everything would still be there, but it's not.

I'm sure the jury will understand that trunk was tampered with as well as the remains site being hit by a hurricane and the remains being out in the Florida elements. Ideally, there would be two perfectly preserved crime scenes, but because of interfering parents and Florida environment, neither of these scenes is complete and they don't have the evidence that should be there.

Does this mean Casey walks? Absolutely not. LE and SA still had a lot to work with, and with that awful decomp smell and adipocere in the car plus all of those items from the home with Caylee's remains, plus the invisinanny and lots more, her fate is sealed. There is more than enough there to convict her, and running around in circles about an imperfect crime scene and what's not there is not going to free her.

Which brings me to the awesomeness that is AZlawyer:

Reasonable doubt does not mean you can think of some possible alternative explanation for each individual item of evidence. It means that you can think of some reasonable alternative explanation that fits all items of evidence.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SAYING THIS!!!!! The thanks button was just NOT enough. There is NO alternative explanation that can possibly fit ALL of the evidence! If there was, the defense would have certainly come up with it long before now!

 

[RainyGirl]

Reasonable doubt does not mean you can think of some possible alternative explanation for each individual item of evidence. It means that you can think of some reasonable alternative explanation that fits all items of evidence.

Thank you for reiterating this very important point. Jurors are instructed to consider the totality of all evidence presented---not just forensic but circumstantial evidence--->which is frequently the kind of evidence that strongly "seals the deal" for jurors.

 

[notthatsmart]

Who said the napkin was the source of the smell...I thought the contention has always been that it was Caylee's decaying body that produced the signature odor of decomposition.

Problem is you don't have a body in the trunk. IMO

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Reasonable doubt does not mean you can think of some possible alternative explanation for each individual item of evidence. It means that you can think of some reasonable alternative explanation that fits all items of evidence.

I think that Dr. Vass based his findings using the, IF, the decomp event were from human origin.
So, IF, the decomp event were from something other than human origin, then Dr. Vass’s findings are incorrect.
I am confused as to how, If the decomp event were from something other than human origin, does not serve as a reasonable alternative explanation that fits all items of evidence related to Dr. Vass’s findings based on a decomp event from human origin?

 

[100%Agave]

I think that Dr. Vass based his findings using the, IF, the decomp event were from human origin.
So, IF, the decomp event were from something other than human origin, then Dr. Vass’s findings are incorrect.
I am confused as to how, If the decomp event were from something other than human origin, does not serve as a reasonable alternative explanation that fits all items of evidence related to Dr. Vass’s findings based on a decomp event from human origin?

What else was in the trunk that could have caused human/pig type decomp? I add the pig since only humans and pigs have similar decomp signatures which is why they use pigs for forensic testing. From my understanding of the docs there was no meat products in the trunk.

 

[notthatsmart]

Have I mentioned how much I appreciate the "Mythbusters" thread above?

Here are a few linked posts that I found helpful.

#9: There was no pizza in the trunk of Casey's car

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Myth Busters and Facts *LIST ONLY* NO DISCUSSION NO DISCUSSION


#36: There was no meat or any other food products in the trash bag

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Myth Busters and Facts *LIST ONLY* NO DISCUSSION NO DISCUSSION

Interesting enough that on page 24 item 13 says EMPTY bottle with brown liquid in it. lol

I wonder what the evidence garage definition of empty is. Moo

 

[RR0004]

Problem is you don't have a body in the trunk. IMO

I'm confused, didn't you say you found it hard to suppose it was the napkin? That's what I was responding to...nothing else.

 

[RR0004]

In the event of a smothering, duct tape across nose and mouth where the child can not breath, there would be no blood involved. The only way that blood should be present is if their was a wound that bled such as a gash, gunshot wound, etc. When Dr. G examined poor Caylee's remains there was no sign of those types of wounds on the bones. So it is not surprising to me that no blood was found in the car as I would not expect any to be found to begin with.

There would be a release of liquids with decomp. But there is one question that I never wanted to ask...would blood be released as well?

 

[RR0004]

I will agree that everything Dr. Vass stated in his report is possible. This includes the 0.7 to 2.6 days, the Adipocere, the air sample, the decomp odor, the coffin flies, etc. etc. etc., and the last possibility is that it should be noted the decomp event may have been from something other than human origin.

I can totally understand how many people can believe it was Adipocere, coffin flies etc. It states all these things are possible in Dr. Vass’s report. I believe all those things are possible. I also believe it is possible that the decomp event may have been cause from something other than human origin, which if that is what caused the decomp event, then none of the other possiblities hold true.

To me that puts the Dr. Vass report in the maybe, maybe not category, which is reasonable doubt. As always, my entire post is my opinion only.[/QUOTE

KC's trunk + the body of her child = no doubt. Nothing unreasonable about it given no other explanation.......

I sincerely hope they don't run with any animal stories. That will surely not sit well with a jury IMO.

 

[notthatsmart]

I'm confused, didn't you say you found it hard to suppose it was the napkin? That's what I was responding to...nothing else.

Yes, I believe it was the garbage bag and its contents that caused the odor because there was a garbage bag there. I do not believe there was a decomposing human body in that trunk due to lack of evidence.

I also do not believe Tl power washed his garbage before Kc took it and put it in her trunk. It is likely Dr Lee took close up photos of the items in the trash. I have yet to see in my life time a full kitchen garbage bag without food in it. Furthermore there were maggots in the garbage indicating to me that there was food in the garbage. I believe Ga described it as the sound of hamburger frying in a pan.

So in closing, I find it hard to believe that a fatty like substance on a napkin and traces of butric acid caused the odor. Furthermore, I do not assume there was a decomposing body in the trunk to cause the odor due to lack of evidence. Moo

 

[notthatsmart]

There would be a release of liquids with decomp. But there is one question that I never wanted to ask...would blood be released as well?

Yes good question. Where does the blood go? I mean how much blood does a human carry? It must go somewhere.

 

[RR0004]

Yes, I believe it was the garbage bag and its contents that caused the odor because there was a garbage bag there. I do not believe there was a decomposing human body in that trunk due to lack of evidence.

I also do not believe Tl power washed his garbage before Kc took it and put it in her trunk. It is likely Dr Lee took close up photos of the items in the trash. I have yet to see in my life time a full kitchen garbage bag without food in it. Furthermore there were maggots in the garbage indicating to me that there was food in the garbage. I believe Ga described it as the sound of hamburger frying in a pan.

So in closing, I find it hard to believe that a fatty like substance on a napkin and traces of butric acid caused the odor. Furthermore, I do not assume there was a decomposing body in the trunk to cause the odor due to lack of evidence. Moo

But NTS...this thread IS about decomp...not the lack of it.

 

[RR0004]

Yes good question. Where does the blood go? I mean how much blood does a human carry? It must go somewhere.

Well I know over time organs pretty much disappear...but I doubt fluids would evaporate. I don't think I want to know the answer. I saw the remnants of a decomp event...the stain of fluids wasn't how I imagined it to be...but it could have been absorbed by a mattress.

 

[spqr]

Problem is you don't have a body in the trunk. IMO

Well if they did have a body at the time, they would not have had to keep looking would they? The evidence points to a HUMAN BODY being in the trunk AT SOME TIME.

 

[TorisMom003]

I did some searching to answer your question about the blood RR and the following is what I have found. It is not something that will be easy to read however it tells me that no blood would be found unless it was already present from an earlier wound.

Odor, color changes, and bloating of the body during decomposition are the results of putrefaction. The lower part of the abdomen turns green due to bacteria activity in the cecum. Bacteria break down hemoglobin into sulfhemoglobin, which causes the green color. A formation of gases enters the abdomen which forces liquids and feces out of the body. The gases also enter the neck and face, causing swelling of the mouth, lips, and tongue. Due to this swelling and misconfiguration of the face, identification of the body can be difficult. Bacteria also enter the venous system causing blood to hemolyze. This leads to the formation of red streaks along the veins. This color soon changes to green, through a process known as marbelization. It can be seen on the shoulders, chest and shoulder area, and thighs. The skin can develop blisters containing serous fluid. The skin also becomes fragile, leading to skin slippage, making it difficult to move a body. Body hair comes off easily. The color change of the discoloration from green to brown marks the transition of the early stage of putrefaction to the advanced decomposition stages.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition[/ame]

 

[notthatsmart]

But NTS...this thread IS about decomp...not the lack of it.

Yeah thats true, perhaps there should be a lack of evidence thread. thanks

 

[RR0004]

I did some searching to answer your question about the blood RR and the following is what I have found. It is not something that will be easy to read however it tells me that no blood would be found unless it was already present from an earlier wound.

Odor, color changes, and bloating of the body during decomposition are the results of putrefaction. The lower part of the abdomen turns green due to bacteria activity in the cecum. Bacteria break down hemoglobin into sulfhemoglobin, which causes the green color. A formation of gases enters the abdomen which forces liquids and feces out of the body. The gases also enter the neck and face, causing swelling of the mouth, lips, and tongue. Due to this swelling and misconfiguration of the face, identification of the body can be difficult. Bacteria also enter the venous system causing blood to hemolyze. This leads to the formation of red streaks along the veins. This color soon changes to green, through a process known as marbelization. It can be seen on the shoulders, chest and shoulder area, and thighs. The skin can develop blisters containing serous fluid. The skin also becomes fragile, leading to skin slippage, making it difficult to move a body. Body hair comes off easily. The color change of the discoloration from green to brown marks the transition of the early stage of putrefaction to the advanced decomposition stages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition

Yes...what I saw was definitely brown. Thanks for going to the trouble of finding the information. I've wondered about the blood for a very long time.