Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #1

[SuziQ]

From this mornings Today Show. Video at link:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24366804/

By Mike Celizic
TODAYShow.com contributor
updated 44 minutes ago
Could a national gang of killers that leaves smiley-face calling cards be getting away with murdering dozens of male college students by making all the deaths look like accidents?

 

[SuziQ]

SQ- this goes to a few cases that I think is relevant and possibly a "profile issue" In that I mean men that they fit the other vic profile, plus the jargled, or silent cell phone calls-
from my notes that fits:
Kyle Fleischman
Scot Radel
Patrick Kycia
Josh Snell
un-named attempted vic 4/10/08 Lafayette, INd.

Thanks for pulling together the cases that had that weird phone angle. I couldn't remember specifically which ones they were. You are right, there may be more that have the phone angle, as we just learned about Josh Snell's last night.

 

[SuziQ]

How's this?

"Dude, is that your red truck in the parking lot? It just got smashed! Guy's trying to get away, my boyfriend's holdin' on to him! Hurry up, c'mon!"

Thank you...thank you very much.

Susan

Oh yeah, I could see how that would work.

 

[Blink34]

Yeah, I've eaten my hat too. And this theory is so intriguing I'd certainly be fascinated if more proof comes out. I mean, it's so weird and mysterious, what with the happy faces and all.

But my rule of thumb about true crime speculation usually is this -- if it sounds more like the plot from a good suspense novel than reality, it's probably closer to fiction than fact. I'm sure I would have said something different 4 years ago, but I've learned a lot since then.

I want to believe in this case, like Fox Mulder, y'know? But there are bells ringing: the fact that they've only revealed this much; that they say there is a conspiracy of killers ranging across several states; one major article linked a lot about this notes that the detectives say they've run out of money. All that bugs me.

I KEEP getting e-mails from people through my blog contact form, and every one of them is a link to this story, so I'm nearly obligated to write something about it at this point.

If I do, I'm going to dig up that crazy theory about the BTK/Zodiac/Son of Sam "satanist group" and remind folks of that, because that conspiracy theory just keeps making me think of this one.

I've debunked stuff in the past, but I don't like to -- I'm more geared towards believing. I've just got a bedrock idea of what makes sense to me, and I have to answer to that.

Steve

I think we would all agree we look forward to seeing something on your site on this-

 

[SuziQ]

I think we would all agree we look forward to seeing something on your site on this-

Same here!

 

[SuziQ]

22 smiley faces were found.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04292008/news/regionalnews/killer_gang_drowns_40__sleuths_108571.htm

(snip)

Gannon said McNeill's death was similar to that of Lawrence Andrews, 22, who vanished on New Year's Eve in 2006 after drinking near Grand Central Terminal.
His body was found Feb. 12, 2007, also off the 69th Street pier.
Gannon said that after studying the water flow and land contour, he concluded the similarities weren't coincidental.
In both cases, he believes the victims were drugged with GHB, a date-rape drug, and then placed in the water.

Gannon and Duarte began working in high gear in 2003, when they learned four young men had vanished in Minnesota and Wisconsin over a 40-day period. Instead of looking at where the bodies were found, the detectives looked at the point of entry into the water, finding smiley faces nearby. Nine of the 22 faces were drawn with horns, Gannon said - like an "evil, happy, smiley man."

 

[TGIRecovered]

I gotta admit it -- I'm a skeptic about this case. I'm willing to let folks try and convince me, but there was a very similar theory floating around several years ago that linked BTK, the Zodiac Killer and David Berkowitz. A Kansas journalist even won an award for it. Dennis Rader (BTK)'s arrest put lie to the whole thing. It had been made up by conspiracy theorist with help from Berkowitz himself.

This smacks of the same sort of thing.

But I'm trying to keep an open mind.

Steve

I agree that this could be a wild goose chase, but even if it is, it would be interesting to see how it got started.

Are there really smiley-faces at the crime scenes? Who put them there and when? A well-meaning family member, hoping to call attention to the drownings? An investigator wanting more budget $? Kids who coincidentally put graffiti near rivers and lakes?

Susan

 

[Blink34]

22 smiley faces were found.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04292008/news/regionalnews/killer_gang_drowns_40__sleuths_108571.htm

(snip)

Gannon said McNeill's death was similar to that of Lawrence Andrews, 22, who vanished on New Year's Eve in 2006 after drinking near Grand Central Terminal.
His body was found Feb. 12, 2007, also off the 69th Street pier.
Gannon said that after studying the water flow and land contour, he concluded the similarities weren't coincidental.
In both cases, he believes the victims were drugged with GHB, a date-rape drug, and then placed in the water.

Gannon and Duarte began working in high gear in 2003, when they learned four young men had vanished in Minnesota and Wisconsin over a 40-day period. Instead of looking at where the bodies were found, the detectives looked at the point of entry into the water, finding smiley faces nearby. Nine of the 22 faces were drawn with horns, Gannon said - like an "evil, happy, smiley man."

So do you think that at the scenes of the other cases LE is looking and has found more- or the Det are releasing more as this case opens up because they are not getting the buy in they need? I would like confrimation of how they got to that number-

 

[fran]

I wonder how many of the cases that are still unsolved, where they have found at least 'one item' of belongings? ie on a bridge or whatever. Their hat, jacket, shoes, cell phone, bags with belongings, wallett?

The names you mentioned above with incomplete or whatever phone calls, does this include the ones that were say going to someone's house or apt and weren't able to reach them? ie the gf's not home?

thanks,
fran

 

[hockeymom]

2nd autopsy comes to same conclusion,accidental drowning.

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/st...tegory=ALBANY&BCCode=LOCAL&newsdate=4/29/2008


Just because there were no signs of a struggle,doesn't mean this was accidental. Something is still not right with this story. I can point out a descrepency in just this article. The LE spokesperson says there was $28 in Josh's wallet and not $400 as earlier reported,yet the father, on tape ,is talking about the fact that his son had alot of cash on him because he was Christmas shopping.
And this is the 1st I have heard of surveillance videos. If they had them,why isn't there any record of Josh on them?

 

[SuziQ]

So do you think that at the scenes of the other cases LE is looking and has found more- or the Det are releasing more as this case opens up because they are not getting the buy in they need? I would like confrimation of how they got to that number-

I think it's more information coming out from the detectives. There was a presser held yesterday in N.Y. and all I've found is snippets of it here and there. I think alot was disclosed in that presser. I would love to find a complete video of it, because I think different media outlets are reporting on just a few details that they find tantilizing.

 

[TGIRecovered]

I still like to think some of them are related, but I think it's one person doing it.

Hat is in ready position. LOL

I don't think a gang could have been doing this for so long without someone talking about it.

It does seem that it would be hard to kidnap so many young men from public places without assistance. If they were being lured, I think we would have some stories of double drownings or one that got away, since young men are likely to take a buddy with them if something sounds hinky.

Maybe we have a sick partnership. A psychopathic leader with a lackey?
(Maybe it's those annoying gypsy magazine sellers...geeze I wish they'd all disappear!)

Susan

 

[Blink34]

Got it, I was referring to the 22 smiley's , IIRC, there was only 6 previously. Yes, the "random" news coverage is maddening-

 

[eve]

I don't think a gang could have been doing this for so long without someone talking about it.

It does seem that it would be hard to kidnap so many young men from public places without assistance. If they were being lured, I think we would have some stories of double drownings or one that got away, since young men are likely to take a buddy with them if something sounds hinky.

Maybe we have a sick partnership. A psychopathic leader with a lackey?

Susan

I think maybe someone is talking about it, otherwise I don't see how the detectives' theory could be as developed as it appears to be, even with many items being witheld from the press right now. There is a story of a WI guy who woke up struggling in the water - the one who got away. There may be more. Having a blackout like that is extremely traumatic and embarassing -something like a rape. Some kids would be afraid to admit or reveal such an experience.

I think guys are actually more likely to just take off when the mood hits them (than girls) - to go elsewhere, or home, or whatever. My mantra to my son is now "buddy system, buddy system, buddy system!

Eve

 

[TGIRecovered]

Yes eve, I can see how that would be embarassing for a guy to admit he had been drugged.

I was thinking more along the lines of the killer(s) bailing out if they tried to lure one guy but he showed up with a buddy. If they were being lured rather than kidnapped, there would be no need to slip someone a mickey. What I am saying is that I doubt they were lured. I think they were very discretely "taken". Hence the need for more than one perp, but not a whole gang.

 

[Littledeer]

First, welcome all new posters! :blowkiss:

Blink: You might be getting the numbers confused with how many of the smiley faces had horns (6) as oppossed to the total number of smiley faces found (22) according to the NY detectives.

I am having a hard time believing that all of these disappearances/deaths were caused by a "gang" going to different states, but these days nothing is IMPOSSIBLE when it comes to crime, as people seem to get sicker and sicker in their mind with the type of crime they mete out every day.

Like Steve Huff and TaxiMom, I will keep an open mind and hope that all fellow WS's do the same. Does anyone know if the smiley faces were at the crime scene at the TIME OF DISCOVERY or only when these two NY detectives went their later to do their own investigation?? I'm sure this information is somewhere on this forum.............

 

[Blink34]

I think maybe someone is talking about it, otherwise I don't see how the detectives' theory could be as developed as it appears to be, even with many items being witheld from the press right now. There is a story of a WI guy who woke up struggling in the water - the one who got away. There may be more. Having a blackout like that is extremely traumatic and embarassing -something like a rape. Some kids would be afraid to admit or reveal such an experience.

I think guys are actually more likely to just take off when the mood hits them (than girls) - to go elsewhere, or home, or whatever. My mantra to my son is now "buddy system, buddy system, buddy system!

Eve

Absolutely and should be for everyone- eliminate the opportunity, eliminate the crime

 

[Blink34]

First, welcome all new posters! :blowkiss:

Blink: You might be getting the numbers confused with how many of the smiley faces had horns (6) as oppossed to the total number of smiley faces found (22) according to the NY detectives.

I am having a hard time believing that all of these disappearances/deaths were caused by a "gang" going to different states, but these days nothing is IMPOSSIBLE when it comes to crime, as people seem to get sicker and sicker in their mind with the type of crime they mete out every day.

Like Steve Huff and TaxiMom, I will keep an open mind and hope that all fellow WS's do the same. Does anyone know if the smiley faces were at the crime scene at the TIME OF DISCOVERY or only when these two NY detectives went their later to do their own investigation?? I'm sure this information is somewhere on this forum.............

:crazy: thanks LD, your right I did- my bad!

 

[Blink34]

Well NYPD is not interested in Gannon and Duarte's investigation either. I was hoping that because the detectives are one of their own, that NYPD would have been more receptive of Gannon and Duarte's work. Also, the first smiley face was found while investigating Chris Jenkin's death.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...exnypd_cops_say_smiley_face_is_link_in_4.html

(snip)
"It screamed homicide," said Gannon. Jenkins was found floating on his back with his arms crossed on his chest - an unusual pose for a drowned person.
Jenkins' death was reclassified as a homicide, and the retired NYPD cops found the spot where Jenkins might have been thrown into the water.
It was there that they discovered the first smiley face.
FBI officials said they do not believe the deaths are the work of a serial killer or related.
And NYPD officials still say McNeill's death was an accident.
"We have no evidence to suggest otherwise, and no one has come forward with any evidence to suggest otherwise," said Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Browne.

Let's see how they feel after Josh Szotak's autopsy tomorrow with Dr. Baden

 

[Littledeer]

No problem blink! LOL :blowkiss: It can get :crazy: trying to keep up with everything sometimes!!

Has anyone done a composite comparison between the males? I mean, number of similarities between descriptive factors (i.e. black hair, brown eyes, etc.). I've noticed some similarities between some and was wondering if maybe that could be a factor??