Debate Thread for Caylee is alive

[Brini]

Here is the link to LE enforcement saying that Caylee is dead. It should not be ignored as LE would never come out and say such a thing if it werent true. In addition, they will charge her when they are good and ready and have all of their ducks in a row and not a moment before. They would never risk giving JB discovery too early and or rush to judgement/double jep for Casey.

Caylee was dead in Casey's trunk. That is the bottom line.....imho

"The information we've gotten back from the lab that she was in the trunk of that car and that she is dead is certainly something we take seriously," said Orange County Sheriff's Office Sgt. John Allen.

http://www.wesh.com/news/17353349/detail.html
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Excellent summation.

 

[Evan's Mom]

Particularly if she was still alive. There would be $225,000 reasons for someone to come forward. And, LE would be happy to make a sweetheart deal with any informer.

Don't take this as what I think happened, I'm just throwing this out there to see what sticks.
This is way way out there as far as theories goes, btw.

Personally, I honestly have no theory, but since you brought up the reward perhaps it could go this way:

We know the guy offering the reward has ties to the industry and other questionable activities. Then in the backwards recordings Casey says something about a guy in and boys did this.
What if Casey was somehow involved, maybe did phone sex or something for this guy and had a friend, one she now refers to as "Zenaida", that also "worked" with her and sometimes watched Caylee for her. What if Casey and Zenaida either witnessed a murder, found out about a murder and/or other serious illegal activities, or just somehow involved in that and got in too deep.
Is it plausible that things got seriously screwed up and "Zenaida" and Casey decided to have Zenaida take off with Caylee and go into hiding until things settled down or someone else went to jail and they felt safe again to come home? What if this guy offered this reward just to lull someone into a false sense of security or to get someone to rat out the hiding place?
Now with Caylee and Zenaida off in hiding and Casey in protective custody(I know she's at home, but still protected), Casey can be as smug as she wants to be because she knows she, Caylee and Zenaida all three are safe.

Like I said, I know the reality of this situation is that this is not the way things went down, but since you brought up the reward, this thought popped out.

 

[Brini]

I've thought about this too. It appears pretty obvious from the recordings alone that KC is not cooperating. But maybe she is now and because of the severity of the situation LE wants her to appear combative in order to protect others (good or bad) or buy time for someone, somewhere to slip up.

I'm compiling a list of pros & cons, verbatim LE statements and facts as well as alternative suggestions... I hope to have it up soon, just have to decide which thread it belongs with; debate, alive, theories, etc....

They don't have to buy time. They have all the tme they want. The can charge KC now, or 50 years from now.

 

[Brini]

The merits of the "Caylee is alive" belief/theory has been consistently (and seemingly reasonably) countered by pointing out that the cadaver dogs alerted on the car, areas of the Anthonys' backyard, etc. I got curious and did some internet digging to find out more about decomposing human remains, the reliability of cadaver dogs and so on. And I found some interesting things:

1. "The scent, associated with that of deceased individuals, such as dried blood, is generally regarded as human-specific, but its exact chemical composition is still largely unknown. Several odor analyses of putrefying bodies have been performed, but the specifc odor associated with recently deceased or "fresh" bodies have not been sufficiently investigated. Cadaver dogs do not only signal upon finding putrefed human tissue or old remnants of blood, they further signal when detecting a recently deceased body. Generally, cadaver dogs do not give specific signals when recognizing the scent of living individuals. Artifcial scents containing putrescine and cadaverine are commercially available; but these substances have not been established as the single most relevant odor in the scent of deceased human tissue. These substances are also present in all decaying organic materials as well as organic materials of living individuals, e.g. their saliva. So the true "perfume of death" is discernable and its composition important for the successful search of cadaver dogs. However its components remain a mystery and largely unidentified. There have been few studies performed that focus on the reliability of cadaver dogs with varying skills and training. Most searches are performed on contaminated items stemming from a longer post mortem interval."
http://www.pawsoflife.org/pdf/Library%20articles/carpet%20squares.pdf

2. "A human cadaver dog's detection skills depend greatly on its training, and the problem is that human remains are hard to come by. Trainers often use a combination of available "pseudoscents", and pigs. The problem with pseudoscents, says Mick Swindells, a retired police handler who works as a freelance trainer and handler in Blackpool, is that they represent a "snapshot" of death. As decomposition proceeds, the chemistry of the corpse evolves, causing its odour to change. "I'm trying to train a dog to find the whole video, not just a snapshot," he says. Pigs decompose in similarly to humans, and when buried they disturb the ground in a similar way."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html

3. "Because it is not known explicitly what the chemical compounds of death are, no one is quite sure what the dogs are actually smelling. Putrescine and cadaverine are two components of the smell of death, but that is not all. Therefore, the cadaver dogs’ expertise cannot be replaced by instrumental analysis or chemical laboratory techniques at this point in time."
http://ksgarvin.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/garvin.ppt

Also, I found on another sleuthing website a discussion of cadaver dogs and what they alert on with regard to the missing Madelein McCann case, and some of the contributors to that discussion appear to be very knowledgeable about forensic science as they apparently work in that or related fields. There was quite a bit of very interesting information related to or further to the info/links above posted. For example "Cadaverine and putrescine can be produced by materials other than a human body. An animal body for example. And decaying fish. And some plant matter. So its not forensic evidence of anything other than the presence of those chemicals."

That discussion can be found here:
http://the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=19116

Then there's the FBI lab analysis of the chemical profiles of decomposition, and he hair with the death band.

 

[Brini]

If the car was out of gas...which I think it was...it would just about knock out the whole (hope it gets stolen) theory...not many car thieves carry around gas cans. KC's purse was found in the car as well, but there has been no statement as to what was in the purse...I've switched purses in my car numerous times and took the one with all my stuff in it and left the other behind empty...I think the car was abandoned intentially, who puts a bag of trash in their trunk, and leaves it in there, ecpecially when the car is parked next to a dumpster! makes no sense to me! It leads me to believe that she didn't quite care what happened to the car, she never went back to fill it up and use it, she wanted nothing to do with it after that day!

Thats what LE said they thought. She just wanted it to go away.

 

[Brini]

But would you ever have thought that Shawn Hornbeck could have been hidden for four years?
I'm not comparing the cases, but that is pretty unbelievable too.

There was no forensic evidence that Shawn was dead.

 

[Brini]

good question...if they "knew her" yes, but maybe Fusion was safe...certain people could not or would not go there...maybe just to be seen with people there...I still have not released my radar on that place or that industry for that matter
but, if they did not "know her" only what she looked like or what she drove...then abandonment is a good possibility

I imagine that someone who put a dead body in her thunk WOULD want to be rid of the car.

 

[Brini]

Okay.
Your response is not telling me a single thing I don't already know.
Like I said, I choose to believe she's alive because I want to.
I understand you want to make people realize what you know to be true, but you just can't sway someone who doesn't want to be swayed.

That's fine. But, then, why are you on the debate thread?

 

[Brini]

I would love to see the calls for the 17th.

I would like to know how Zanny the Nanny managed to erase her calls from all of KCs phone records, and her emails from KCs computer.

 

[Brini]

It's hard, isn't it? I remember the day it all hit me and I fully believed Caylee was dead. I cried off and on all day. I don't even know this baby.

Yep. You just knew a baby was killed, for no reason. No valid reason.

 

[Brini]

However, in the same news report (same URL link), there is this:

"If any evidence to the contrary is provided, it will be vigorously pursued," the statement from Capt. Angelo Nieves said. "

Why would Nieves say this? It leaves a door open IMHO ... it implies that LE is not absolutely certain of the proof in the lab results, and if LE was certain re officer Allen's comment, then why was the search not changed at that point to a Homicide investigation? They don't have to charge Casey with homicide in order to conduct a Homicide investigation. Seems if they were certain of proof of Caylee's death, they would be doing that and there would be no "Ifs".

LE is not certain of Caylee's death.

It HAS been changed to a homicide investigation. That's why the searches for a dead body, and the FBI analyses. LE ANNOUNCED that they are no longer looking for a missing person.

 

[Brini]

However, in the same news report (same URL link), there is this:

"If any evidence to the contrary is provided, it will be vigorously pursued," the statement from Capt. Angelo Nieves said. "

Why would Nieves say this? It leaves a door open IMHO ... it implies that LE is not absolutely certain of the proof in the lab results, and if LE was certain re officer Allen's comment, then why was the search not changed at that point to a Homicide investigation? They don't have to charge Casey with homicide in order to conduct a Homicide investigation. Seems if they were certain of proof of Caylee's death, they would be doing that and there would be no "Ifs".

LE is not certain of Caylee's death.

That is a pro forma statement.

 

[Brini]

I thought that too but as others pointed out, the garage has plenty of garden tools and such she could have used. She backed her car into the garage on the same date so she had access.

I'm gonna guess that her intentions were to bury Caylee but she found it to be more of a job than she bargained for.

And, I'm gonna agree. I am also a delicately built female.

 

[Brini]

You're not alone. Even with me, as a believer that she is gone, the day it's announced or her body found is still going to be a hard day on us all.

I don't believe we will hear "I told you so" between members here, I think it will be a heart sinking day.

I held out my last little bit of hope on Caylee's birthday. I kept watching the boards and cams hoping she would walk up the sidewalk. That was my last hope.

You're right. You will not hear an "I told you so." You're also right that even we who are quite certain that she's dead will be heartbroken.

 

[Brini]

Further from that same news link:

The Orange Sheriff’s Office said again Monday that "there is a strong probability" that Caylee Anthony is dead, noting that investigators have "additional evidence that has not been made public."

The statement came a day after investigators for the first time on the record acknowledged that recent FBI lab tests indicated that Caylee Anthony's body was in her mother's trunk and that the child is dead.

I feel the words "probability" and "indicated" are hedging by LE in addition to the "if". Having worked many years in law offices, I recognize this type of hedging as a legal-speak construct to leave doors open when evidence is not sufficient to establish proof. I've taken the liberty of consulting a dictionary to check out the wording specifically as follows:

From: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/

Probability
1: the quality or state of being probable

Probable
1 : supported by evidence strong enough to establish presumption but not proof

Indicated (from Indicate)
b: to be a sign, symptom, or index of <the high fever indicates a serious condition>

Proof
1 a: the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact

Cogent
2 : having power to convince of the truth, rightness, or reality of something :

Convince
to bring (as by argument) to belief, consent, or a course of action


And, granted the Anthonys have apparently cut off most or all communication with LE since the forensic information came out, but this is not necessarily telling to me -- given they don't believe what LE is saying, they may simply have chosen to not argue with LE about it.

That's pro forma, when the body is not present.

 

[Brini]

on page 298+299 There is a MANNY down on the CC: of the emails along with Casey and Juliett. Please see what you think as Manny is male Nanny. On The doc. released from LE.

It's also a nickname for "Manuel."

 

[Brini]

Is there any evidence that these crimes are connected? Where is this NG connection coming from? Burying murder weapons? How about throwing it in a swamp. Can somebody please give one piece of credible information that NG murder is related to kc's disappearance? I think that is beyond grasping at straws.

Yeah, I think that's WAY out there.

 

[Brini]

Because they are waiting for Casey to say come forward it is now safe for Caylee.

That's a LOOOONG reach.

 

[Brini]

That same article also states
The Orange Sheriff’s Office said again Monday that “there is a strong probability” that Caylee Anthony is dead, noting that investigators have “additional evidence that has not been made public.”

They will also investigate info that she is still alive, same article.

Those are pro forma statements that are made, when they don't have a body.

 

[Brini]

She wouldn't necessarily talk to police if she thought the murderers would also kill Caylee if she did.

1) How does she know the "murderers" haven't killed Caylee ANYWAY. Because she is confident she can take the word of a murderer?

2) If she DID talk say, to the FBI, how would a murderer FIND OUT? The FBI does confidential trackings and rescue of kidnap victims every day. They have even tracked, and rescued, foreigners who have been trafficked to the US and Europe as slaves, right under the nose of organized crime.