Defense to depose Dr. G

[Just Jayla]

Was watching her show a couple of days ago....Dr. G does not stop until she gets to the rock bottom of the cause of death, if she can. The case I was watching involved a cause of death that took her many examinations to determine, when she could have just written down her initial findings as COD. But she did not, she studied further and found unexpected clues to a different, more complex COD.....she does this for the families, I think, most of all, so that they have real truth and she does this out of pure integrity as well. She is the top of her field, IMO.
I saw that one of our members stated to media that no soft tissue leaves wiggle room for the defense. I believe Dr. G will be able to concisely explain why this is not so. If she thought soft tissue should have been there, she would have noted it and pushed further with that in mind-It's just the way she rolls.
Now, with Caylee, a lot of the organs and indicators she needed were gone. She HAD to use the circumstances at hand to make her determination. She is clear about this. So clear, in fact, that I think the jury will get it and will be even more ticked at KC for having left Caylee out there so long that she was left to nothing but bones.

 

[jon_burrows]

Here's the link
http://www.wesh.com/video/25215359/detail.html

I'm sick of WESH and their talking head, why do they keep saying no skin? It was 6 months, there couldn't possibly be any skin.
WESH seems to be getting very pro-defense.

He needs to read the autopsy report. It goes into much greater detail but here is a snippet from page 29:

"...It would be expected that decomposition of a small child in Florida that is deposited in an outdoor environment during the summer months would have occurred in less than a month and most likely within TWO WEEKS. Therefore, the body must have been dumped at the site during the early stages of decay prior to disartiulation of anatomical units...."

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/34130588/cayleeanthonyautopsypdf

IMO

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

Posted: 12:00 pm EDT September 28, 2010
Updated: 5:42 pm EDT September 28, 2010

The defense questions how the medical examiner can conclude Caylee Anthony was murdered without saying how. But the defense won't say how Caylee could have been killed accidentally, when three pieces of duct tape were found layered over her face.

The defense questioned medical examiner Dr. Jan Garavaglia and two of her employees Tuesday at the medical examiner's office. Dr. G, and her team, examined Caylee's remains for a week and concluded they might not be able to determine how Caylee was murdered.

Almost two years later that hasn't changed and the defense has questions.

"Her reasons for calling it a homicide without knowing how the death occurred," attorney Cheney Mason said after the questioning.

Casey's lead attorney, Jose Baez, was quiet Tuesday, avoiding all reporter questions.

"Why aren't you stopping to talk to us lately? What's going on?" WFTV reporter Kathi Belich asked Baez.

"I got work to do," he said.

The medical examiner also concluded that Caylee's body had been in the woods for months, partly because plants had grown through and over the remains. Investigators believe Casey dumped Caylee's body there shortly after the little girl disappeared in June 2008, before we ever knew she was missing.

more
http://www.wftv.com/news/25193388/detail.html

The defense questions how the medical examiner can conclude Caylee Anthony was murdered without saying how. But the defense won't say how Caylee could have been killed accidentally, when three pieces of duct tape were found layered over her face.

Does the defense really need this spelled out for them?

Consider the circumstance...a two year old child missing for over a month, never reported missing by the parent until the grandparent forces the issue.

Claims of an alleged abduction, yet no phone number, no address, no photo no nothing in regards to this alleged nanny.

The vehicle driven exclusively by the parent is found to have decompostion in the trunk...

Fast foward 5 months, a childs remains found, all items found with those remains linked back to the Anthony home..the skeletal remains were found with duct tape over her nasal/mouth area, wrapped partially around the skull, which held her mandible in place, her little bones scattered over a large area of swampy waters, which were under water for most of those months. Plants were growing in and around her tiny bones...

Did Caylee do this to herself?

Why wouldn't this be called a homicide even though COD could not be determined!!!

I swear, CMason is truly showing he isn't the attorney he claims to be. If he has 35-40 years of experience, it sure isn't shining through, not with this case, IMO...He's at a loss on how to defend this uncooperative client. Due diligence would be to tell her how bad this looks, since she was the last one with physical custody of Caylee. Never reporting an allegedly abducted child goes against the grain of "good parenting"! I feel, Mason is truly out of touch and if he tries this nonsense at trial, I do believe the jury will shut down, they will go by the evidence, the words of the impeccable Dr. G and ICA will be headed for incarceration, for the rest of her sorry life. She will not be put to death, IMO...but will get LWOP, even if the defense is successful in getting her convicted on manslaughter and not capital murder...If she's lucky!
JMHO



Justice for Caylee

 

[LambChop]

If, as we presume, Caylee died the afternoon of the June 16th KC was clearly too busy to go back and duct tape her child with tape from the family garage. She had a hot date with TL and Blockbuster. In a hot trunk decomp would have started pretty quickly, I would imagine. And we know from the pings she did not go home after she met up with TL.

Did Caylee die because it was KC's last ditch effort to get rid of the child because she could not find anyone to watch her and was not about to miss her date? Did KC duct tape Caylee's mouth and bind her arms behind her and throw her in the trunk thinking she would bring her home later. I doubt it as she apparently showed no alert to TL that something was very wrong. jmo

 

[whiteangora]

If, as we presume, Caylee died the afternoon of the June 16th KC was clearly too busy to go back and duct tape her child with tape from the family garage. She had a hot date with TL and Blockbuster. In a hot trunk decomp would have started pretty quickly, I would imagine. And we know from the pings she did not go home after she met up with TL.

Did Caylee die because it was KC's last ditch effort to get rid of the child because she could not find anyone to watch her and was not about to miss her date? Did KC duct tape Caylee's mouth and bind her arms behind her and throw her in the trunk thinking she would bring her home later. I doubt it as she apparently showed no alert to TL that something was very wrong. jmo

This is the part that drives me crazy. How did Caylee die? Where and when? There are so many possibilities to consider and I wonder if the State has a specific scenario to lay out at trial.

 

[LambChop]

This is the part that drives me crazy. How did Caylee die? Where and when? There are so many possibilities to consider and I wonder if the State has a specific scenario to lay out at trial.

I'll bet they have. We had a preview of it with Ashton's comments about "Caylee looking into the eyes of her killer." jmo

 

[momtective]

This is the part that drives me crazy. How did Caylee die? Where and when? There are so many possibilities to consider and I wonder if the State has a specific scenario to lay out at trial.

I remember all of us piecing together the phone pings, myspace convos, witness interviews and depos and I came to this conclusion as to what might have happened. KC couldn't get anyone to babysit Caylee (mass phone calls) so she could go out with TonE so she drugged her, taped her up and put her in the trunk then she went about her merry business with TonE. I was thinking that maybe she intended to remove an awake Caylee from the trunk the next morning but she and TonE slept in and by the time she awoke and remembered Caylee she was already dead from the heat and asphyxiation. The pings and interviews lined up with this train of thought but honestly there is only one person who knows how Caylee died and that's KC and my guess is we will never know the actual truth because the truth and Ms. Anthony are indeed strangers.

 

[joypath]

As far as the duct tape being applied before, during or after death, the decompositon does not "melt away" the tissue that quickly, the tissue will start to break down but not disappear entirely right away. It is my opinion that Dr. G will only be able to say what her opinion is as far as when the duct tape was placed. I unfortunately do not think she will be able to say anything other than the duct tape was placed prior to decomposition, which is not the same as antemortem or perimortem. We all know it was placed before she was thoroughly decomposed.........It could have been placed right after death. I personally do not think that it was, I think it was antemortem but I have seen no evidence to back that up. Others think it was post mortem to make it look like a kidnapping.......

Hopefully NO ONE took my journey into the vernacular with the terms "melt away" literally! As you very aptly stated, the external human frame takes time to process thru the stages of decomposition and given the environmental conditions and body size, my hypothesis of time to complete-near complete skeletonization would be well within 2 -3 weeks. As many may not know, the oral cavity is well populated with aerobic and anaerobic bacteria who begin their activity in the decomposition process quickly (think: halitosis of the worst degree!) and also adore the soft mucosal environment.
The duct tape could have been place pre, peri or post mortem but the key point of the report is that the indicator of timing is that it was placed prior to ligament/muscle/nerve dissolve and jaw disarticulation.
Would I be presenting/defending my judgment on this death certificate, I would be taking the jury on a journey into the world of death and dying: the physical conditions and manifestations to explain the terms utilized, especially decomposition. Then I'd be extrapolating how the information provided by the ME site investigators/LE & CSI on site/ contributing experts and my own "walk thru" led me to my determination, including my data research & stats.
And depending on the depo questions, that's some of what the defense team should have gotten as a "preview", but only if they ASKED!:dance:

 

[jon_burrows]

joypath, thanks for your very informative posts.

I'm very interested in your opinion. Do you believe Ashton's theory is correct? Caylee was suffocated to death with duct tape.

 

[Snaz]

As far as the duct tape being applied before, during or after death, the decompositon does not "melt away" the tissue that quickly, the tissue will start to break down but not disappear entirely right away. It is my opinion that Dr. G will only be able to say what her opinion is as far as when the duct tape was placed. I unfortunately do not think she will be able to say anything other than the duct tape was placed prior to decomposition, which is not the same as antemortem or perimortem. We all know it was placed before she was thoroughly decomposed.........It could have been placed right after death. I personally do not think that it was, I think it was antemortem but I have seen no evidence to back that up. Others think it was post mortem to make it look like a kidnapping.......

BBM

If KC had applied the tape post mortem to imply a kidnapping, wouldn't that require her to determine very quickly (like almost immediately) that she would go with "the nanny stole Caylee" story?

My belief is that she didn't decide on that story until July 15, when KC and LA were in her bedroom. According to LA, CA overheard KC tell LA that she hadn't seen Caylee in 31 days. LA said CA came into the room and said, "What have you done? Who took her?" (something to that effect).

I don't think KC could decide that quickly after Caylee died that she would say that "the nanny stole her and I'll put duct tape on her mouth as further proof, in case her body is ever found."

For these reasons, I believe the tape was placed BEFORE Caylee died. Even though Dr. G cannot with certainty state ante mortem, I believe the facts all put together will clearly show KC placed the tape on Caylee's face before she died.

And based on the hearing where we saw KC tell her attorney to "make him stop", KC won't like what she hears at trial when JA tells in great detail exactly how they believe KC killed little Caylee.

As always, JMO.

 

[logicalgirl]

To be blunt. The tape will not adhere to wet.

Early decomp will leak from the mouth, making it wet. Which will make taping the mouth at that point impossible. Which is why peri (at or close to death) is considered possible, but not post. Considering the Florida heat and where she was located, that window of being able to apply the tape is very small.

Now that is very interesting!! I didn't even give wet/dry (ugh) a thought. Very clever!:blowkiss:

 

[joypath]

joypath, thanks for your very informative posts.

I'm very interested in your opinion. Do you believe Ashton's theory is correct? Caylee was suffocated to death with duct tape.

Jon, I'm definitely in the death by soft kill camp, the question is by EXACTLY what vector. I would love to really see, hold, examine, touch, manipulate EVERY piece of the duct tape. The investigation/hypothetical interest/statements/"whatever" of brother & sister "sleuthers" on the forum threads have been fantastic and probably close to or on the money regarding the deed. All things being equal, :twocents:I'm heading toward the tape as the fatal blow since without it she did have a glimmer of hope and with it present, N O N E at all. Even if Caylee :innocent:had a medical emergency and ICA :loser:ASSUMED she were deceased, the lack of external medical assistance, compounded by the deadly duct tape makes this an unnatural, unusual death scene for a toddler.
So, would my signature be confirming the same MOD as Jan? YOU BETCHA!:furious:

 

[wonders]

This is what I think.
I believe ICA placed the duct tape on Caylee's face 3 times mind you just before or right after Caylee took her last breath.
I wish we knew about the cholriphorme. I've alway had a feeling that that may have been how Caylee died. You know as if ICA had placed cholriphorme on cotton balls or something and used the tape to hold them in place.
ETA: ICA could have also used some other drug and the duct tape was just a make sure Caylee wasn't going to be around anymore. I just don't know.
The saddest thing is that we will never know how that precious toddler died at the hands of her own egg doner. Poor Caylee, poor little Caylee.

 

[logicalgirl]

I know there were high levels of chloroform found in the trunk but I have no idea why ICA would have bothered with that when an larger than prescribed dose of benedryl or something similar would have accomplished the same thing on such a small child.

 

[jon_burrows]

Jon, I'm definitely in the death by soft kill camp, the question is by EXACTLY what vector. I would love to really see, hold, examine, touch, manipulate EVERY piece of the duct tape. The investigation/hypothetical interest/statements/"whatever" of brother & sister "sleuthers" on the forum threads have been fantastic and probably close to or on the money regarding the deed. All things being equal, :twocents:I'm heading toward the tape as the fatal blow since without it she did have a glimmer of hope and with it present, N O N E at all. Even if Caylee :innocent:had a medical emergency and ICA :loser:ASSUMED she were deceased, the lack of external medical assistance, compounded by the deadly duct tape makes this an unnatural, unusual death scene for a toddler.
So, would my signature be confirming the same MOD as Jan? YOU BETCHA!:furious:

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

I've believed this was a soft kill from the day they announced three layers of duct tape were found over Caylee's airways.

You bring up a very interesting point that I've never even considered. If an accident occurred (which I don't believe), the act of Casey applying duct tape over her airways sealed her fate leaving no chance at all for her to live. I wonder if this scenario is legally considered aggravated child abuse resulting in death because not only would she have withheld emergency, potential life-saving medical care but she would have hastened her death with the duct tape if she were still alive. I believe the penalty could be the same (LWOP or DP).

It reminds me of the secretly recorded video of Juron in the car. The guy asked him how he knew for sure Natalee was dead before he dumped her body in the ocean and he said he didn't. Not that I believe anything Juron says but it's the same concept. If she wasn't dead, he made sure she was.

IMO

 

[jon_burrows]

I remember all of us piecing together the phone pings, myspace convos, witness interviews and depos and I came to this conclusion as to what might have happened. KC couldn't get anyone to babysit Caylee (mass phone calls) so she could go out with TonE so she drugged her, taped her up and put her in the trunk then she went about her merry business with TonE. I was thinking that maybe she intended to remove an awake Caylee from the trunk the next morning but she and TonE slept in and by the time she awoke and remembered Caylee she was already dead from the heat and asphyxiation. The pings and interviews lined up with this train of thought but honestly there is only one person who knows how Caylee died and that's KC and my guess is we will never know the actual truth because the truth and Ms. Anthony are indeed strangers.

I agree Casey will never tell the truth but I respectfully disagree with the rest.

I think that much duct tape was meant to be permanent. She would have had to cut or pull her hair out to get it off. Not to mention what it would have done to her skin (think band aid times a million).

Unless Casey's IQ is so low that she didn't know drugging, duct taping, and storing a child in a trunk in Florida wouldn't cause death, that accidental death theory won't fly with a jury.

IMO

 

[ynotdivein]

Thank you all for your input on this thread.

I had thought that maybe KC accidentally OD'ed Caylee and only later applied the tape to her face to simulating a kidnapping scenario (as seen in the movies at least). Snaz's post clarified that for me--IF the death was in any way accidental ("Zanny" the Xanax nanny OR accidental drowning), the application of the tape indicates that KC would have had to concoct the kidnapping scenario almost immediately, before dumping Caylee off like so much trash. Yet nothing we've seen supports the idea that KC planned to blame it on the nanny/kidnapping scenario until she was brought up short with 911 on the other end of the phone line one month later.

The tape across Caylee's mouth and nose is damning. If there is any scientific basis to think that Q104 was used to bind her hands behind her back, "damning" doesn't even begin to describe it.

And of course, nothing we've seen points to any other perpetrator than Caylee's mother.

 

[wonders]

Thank you all for your input on this thread.

I had thought that maybe KC accidentally OD'ed Caylee and only later applied the tape to her face to simulating a kidnapping scenario (as seen in the movies at least). Snaz's post clarified that for me--IF the death was in any way accidental ("Zanny" the Xanax nanny OR accidental drowning), the application of the tape indicates that KC would have had to concoct the kidnapping scenario almost immediately, before dumping Caylee off like so much trash. Yet nothing we've seen supports the idea that KC planned to blame it on the nanny/kidnapping scenario until she was brought up short with 911 on the other end of the phone line one month later.

The tape across Caylee's mouth and nose is damning. If there is any scientific basis to think that Q104 was used to bind her hands behind her back, "damning" doesn't even begin to describe it.

And of course, nothing we've seen points to any other perpetrator than Caylee's mother.

Thank you ynotdivein. I believe with all my heart that Q104 did bind Caylee's little hands. I know this is going to sound weird but thank god Caylee's hair held the facial tape in place.

 

[Snaz]

Thank you ynotdivein. I believe with all my heart that Q104 did bind Caylee's little hands. I know this is going to sound weird but thank god Caylee's hair held the facial tape in place.

Sadly, I believe so, too. It is just so heartbreaking to think about what that little girl may have gone through in the last moments of her life.

 

[strach304]

Sadly, I believe so, too. It is just so heartbreaking to think about what that little girl may have gone through in the last moments of her life.

I console myself by thinking she was drugged first and never knew what was happening to her.