GUILTY Denmark - Kim Wall, 30, Copenhagen, 10 Aug 2017
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JudgeJudi
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Huge thanks to those who have translated in this fascinating case.
Here are the tweets on the medical examiner’s testimony.
Witness 2: Christina is the medical examiner. We know that parts were found in water: What is the affect? Answer: we have a deal of dismembering cases, but not so many that have been in water so long.
Answer: this means nothing can be said to be 100% true due to dismembering & body parts having been in water so long.
We are going through wounds, one by one. There is a sketch of a torso with about 30 wounds, including 10 in the groin. #PeterMadsen said wounds were to get gas out of the body so it could sink. Medical examiner says no.
Various instruments were used for these wounds. We are trying to determine whether they occurred before or after death. Summary: some were before & some after.
Conclusion: while wounds on other parts of the body were likely after death, those around the groin could have been before. The prosecutor is going through the wounds, picture by picture- but only the court can see them.
Why is it unclear whether the wounds were before death (but not hours after)? Answer: Because death is a process.
https://twitter.com/CaliforniaRobin
Here are the tweets on the medical examiner’s testimony.
Witness 2: Christina is the medical examiner. We know that parts were found in water: What is the affect? Answer: we have a deal of dismembering cases, but not so many that have been in water so long.
Answer: this means nothing can be said to be 100% true due to dismembering & body parts having been in water so long.
We are going through wounds, one by one. There is a sketch of a torso with about 30 wounds, including 10 in the groin. #PeterMadsen said wounds were to get gas out of the body so it could sink. Medical examiner says no.
Various instruments were used for these wounds. We are trying to determine whether they occurred before or after death. Summary: some were before & some after.
Conclusion: while wounds on other parts of the body were likely after death, those around the groin could have been before. The prosecutor is going through the wounds, picture by picture- but only the court can see them.
Why is it unclear whether the wounds were before death (but not hours after)? Answer: Because death is a process.
https://twitter.com/CaliforniaRobin
JudgeJudi
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We have moved from the torso discovered on 21 aug to the head discovered on 7 oct. There is a sketch with around 24 wounds.
We know that death could have occurred from chocking or beheading. The examiner says we can’t say for sure that the beheading was most likely because the head has laid under water in a plastic bag for nearly 2 months.
Moving onto the left leg where we see a sketch. And now we are looking at the left arm found on 21 Nov. There is also a sketch here.
Both the arm and leg could have been bound.
The marks on the ankles could be from robe? Answer: yes.
We are addressing #petermadsens explanation of death by carbon monoxide poisoning. The examiner says that the lungs had no carbon, but it could have disappeared after being so long in the water.
BUT all body parts do not show any affects of high heat that would have occurred from carbon monoxide poisoning.
Cross by defense of medical examiner: How long does the death process take? Answer: It depends on cause of death. It can’t take an hour. From bloodletting-where the heart stops because of lack of blood up to 10 minutes.
https://twitter.com/CaliforniaRobin
We know that death could have occurred from chocking or beheading. The examiner says we can’t say for sure that the beheading was most likely because the head has laid under water in a plastic bag for nearly 2 months.
Moving onto the left leg where we see a sketch. And now we are looking at the left arm found on 21 Nov. There is also a sketch here.
Both the arm and leg could have been bound.
The marks on the ankles could be from robe? Answer: yes.
We are addressing #petermadsens explanation of death by carbon monoxide poisoning. The examiner says that the lungs had no carbon, but it could have disappeared after being so long in the water.
BUT all body parts do not show any affects of high heat that would have occurred from carbon monoxide poisoning.
Cross by defense of medical examiner: How long does the death process take? Answer: It depends on cause of death. It can’t take an hour. From bloodletting-where the heart stops because of lack of blood up to 10 minutes.
https://twitter.com/CaliforniaRobin
JudgeJudi
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Criminal liability is beyond a reasonable doubt. What is the defense strategy? 1. When the wounds occurred-if they are after death the criminal penalty is much less -if #petermadsen is proved not to be the killer- it is 2-8 years.
Another defense strategy is whether the wounds are of a sexual nature. The defense is discussing whether 2 wounds started at groin. This matters in terms of whether #PeterMadsen has a sexual motive. If not, punishment would be less.
The defense attorney is poking holes in the analysis. Couldn’t some injuries have occurred by being dragged out of the submarine. Answer: that cannot be ruled out.
Could carbon monoxide poisoning be a cause of death. Answer: that can’t be ruled out.
Lunch break.
https://twitter.com/CaliforniaRobin
Another defense strategy is whether the wounds are of a sexual nature. The defense is discussing whether 2 wounds started at groin. This matters in terms of whether #PeterMadsen has a sexual motive. If not, punishment would be less.
The defense attorney is poking holes in the analysis. Couldn’t some injuries have occurred by being dragged out of the submarine. Answer: that cannot be ruled out.
Could carbon monoxide poisoning be a cause of death. Answer: that can’t be ruled out.
Lunch break.
https://twitter.com/CaliforniaRobin
JudgeJudi
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Witness 3: #kimwalls boyfriend, Olle. They have been together 11 måned (months) . He didn’t know #PeterMadsen
Did she write for @WIRED magazine? Answer: she was supposed to, but didn’t get to.
He checked and her first contact with #petermadsen was 21 March. She wanted to write about the #space competition in #Denmark.
A week after, the 10 August- they were moving to Beijing. #kimwall had many opportunities including writing a book.
#kimwall met shortly with #petermadsen where they had a cup tea. When she came back, she said #PeterMadsen was a little all over the place, but that he seemed interesting.
#kimwall was scared to go on the submarine, and her boyfriend considered going with her partly because he was jealous - he wanted to go under water and part(l)y to accompany her. But they were hosting a farewell party.
#kimwalls boyfriend began to worry after 2-3 hours. He called her, the police, her parents, and began biking around where they lived and #PeterMadsen lab was.
Then he went to #petermadsens wife because she was his only link to the submarine and #kimwall. #petermadsens wife yelled. Others came out. The owner of the hanger/lab was surprised that #petermadsen was NOT alone in the submarine.
Of #kimwall, her boyfriend said that she saw beauty in everything.
Now #kimwalls boyfriend leaves and so do his 7-8 friends. All the seats for family and friends are empty now.
https://twitter.com/CaliforniaRobin
Did she write for @WIRED magazine? Answer: she was supposed to, but didn’t get to.
He checked and her first contact with #petermadsen was 21 March. She wanted to write about the #space competition in #Denmark.
A week after, the 10 August- they were moving to Beijing. #kimwall had many opportunities including writing a book.
#kimwall met shortly with #petermadsen where they had a cup tea. When she came back, she said #PeterMadsen was a little all over the place, but that he seemed interesting.
#kimwall was scared to go on the submarine, and her boyfriend considered going with her partly because he was jealous - he wanted to go under water and part(l)y to accompany her. But they were hosting a farewell party.
#kimwalls boyfriend began to worry after 2-3 hours. He called her, the police, her parents, and began biking around where they lived and #PeterMadsen lab was.
Then he went to #petermadsens wife because she was his only link to the submarine and #kimwall. #petermadsens wife yelled. Others came out. The owner of the hanger/lab was surprised that #petermadsen was NOT alone in the submarine.
Of #kimwall, her boyfriend said that she saw beauty in everything.
Now #kimwalls boyfriend leaves and so do his 7-8 friends. All the seats for family and friends are empty now.
https://twitter.com/CaliforniaRobin
JudgeJudi
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Witness 4: Rescue worker in helicopter. They were worried that he shocked or injured. But he walked the other way. #PeterMadsen was calm and said that he wanted to go home to his wife and his cats.
When they asked about #KimWall, he said that he dropped her off and went back into the water with his submarine to do some tests.
#PeterMadsen asked in detail if the police or military could track his submarine.
Witness 5: Mette. Part of rescue team in helicopter. “He was calm and told them in detail how his submarine worked.”
Witness 5: Normally people being rescued talk about happened. He didn’t. “I had a gut feeling something was wrong.” His behavior was not typical of one who is being saved.
When police started to question, #PeterMadsen asked to she is (see his) lawyer.
Prosecutor: was #PeterMadsen in shock. Witness 5 Answer: no.
https://twitter.com/CaliforniaRobin
When they asked about #KimWall, he said that he dropped her off and went back into the water with his submarine to do some tests.
#PeterMadsen asked in detail if the police or military could track his submarine.
Witness 5: Mette. Part of rescue team in helicopter. “He was calm and told them in detail how his submarine worked.”
Witness 5: Normally people being rescued talk about happened. He didn’t. “I had a gut feeling something was wrong.” His behavior was not typical of one who is being saved.
When police started to question, #PeterMadsen asked to she is (see his) lawyer.
Prosecutor: was #PeterMadsen in shock. Witness 5 Answer: no.
https://twitter.com/CaliforniaRobin
JudgeJudi
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Witness 6: A German-speaking witness called S who has worked in #PeterMadsens lab. 1st 2016, then spring 2017.
Prosecutor- let’s focus on 10 August. Were you there? Answer: yes. Like a trainee or helper? I had my own project called destination moon.
Question: Did you sleep there? Answer: I slept next door to the lab.
An #Australian film team was there on 10 Aug. They filmed 12:06-14:27. They left @ 14:30.
Prosecutor: how was #PeterMadsen at this point. Answer: he was acting much differently than normal.
Did #PeterMadsen say he was taking #kimwall on a submarine tour? Answer No.
Prosecutor: Has #petermadsen ever talked to you about the dark net? Answer: indirectly by asking me what I thought of it.
Answer: “he had a fascination with body openings.” Prosecutor: Example. He stuck pencils in people’s ears and such.
Prosecutor: Did #petermadsen say anything about the contents of the computer. Answer: yes, he said if you only knew what was on there. S assumed there was
on it.
Prosecutor: was #petermadsen interested in women. Answer: yes, on a trip to Berlin, he was interested in sex clubs.
Defense to S: Have you ever seen films with #petermadsen? Answer: Yes, rocket films Also http://livefeed.com . And http://rotten.com.In 2016, they have talked about how enter the dark net. You need a special browser for that.
The court session has ended for the day.
Day 3 summary: The prosecutor questioned the medical examiner to reveal a sexual motive & the extreme gravity of the crime. He questioned #kimwalls boyfriend showing that she was in love, happy & ambitious.
Day 3 summary continued: Prosecutor’s questions to rescue workers & former trainees pointed to #PeterMadsens state of mind. The defense attorney worked to poke holes in the evidence. Her job is to plant reasonable doubt.
https://twitter.com/CaliforniaRobin
Prosecutor- let’s focus on 10 August. Were you there? Answer: yes. Like a trainee or helper? I had my own project called destination moon.
Question: Did you sleep there? Answer: I slept next door to the lab.
An #Australian film team was there on 10 Aug. They filmed 12:06-14:27. They left @ 14:30.
Prosecutor: how was #PeterMadsen at this point. Answer: he was acting much differently than normal.
Did #PeterMadsen say he was taking #kimwall on a submarine tour? Answer No.
Prosecutor: Has #petermadsen ever talked to you about the dark net? Answer: indirectly by asking me what I thought of it.
Answer: “he had a fascination with body openings.” Prosecutor: Example. He stuck pencils in people’s ears and such.
Prosecutor: Did #petermadsen say anything about the contents of the computer. Answer: yes, he said if you only knew what was on there. S assumed there was
on it. Prosecutor: was #petermadsen interested in women. Answer: yes, on a trip to Berlin, he was interested in sex clubs.
Defense to S: Have you ever seen films with #petermadsen? Answer: Yes, rocket films Also http://livefeed.com . And http://rotten.com.In 2016, they have talked about how enter the dark net. You need a special browser for that.
The court session has ended for the day.
Day 3 summary: The prosecutor questioned the medical examiner to reveal a sexual motive & the extreme gravity of the crime. He questioned #kimwalls boyfriend showing that she was in love, happy & ambitious.
Day 3 summary continued: Prosecutor’s questions to rescue workers & former trainees pointed to #PeterMadsens state of mind. The defense attorney worked to poke holes in the evidence. Her job is to plant reasonable doubt.
https://twitter.com/CaliforniaRobin
Logical_Inference
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Thank you Judge Judy. Yeah Google is sometimes impossible to use. We have to refrase sentences many times to be able to get some meaningful text out of it.
Todays court-meeting is going to be questioning of some of PM's girlfriends. One have been allowed to be questioned behind closed doors, so we wont be able to follow that. It should be around lunchtime.
There arent many journalists today, but hopefully its the right ones that tweet alot.
It seems that Robin Elizabeth Herr is tweeting again today, so because its on english it might be better to understand:
https://twitter.com/CaliforniaRobin
Here is the danish live-blog from Ekstra Bladet:
https://ekstrabladet.dk/112/live-i-dag-skal-hemmeligt-vidne-afhoeres/7089831
and here is BT's liveblog:
https://www.bt.dk/krimi/foelg-sagen-her-peter-madsen-i-retten-igen
Thank you very much L_I and everyone who has contributed to the reports on yesterday's court proceedings - I was out and offline all day and so have just had to do a quick catch-up.
Given that all the reasons why absolute certainty as to the cause of Kim Wall's death cannot be established (body dismembered and dumped in weighted bags in the sea, submarine sunk) are the result of PM's own deliberate actions, I don't think they are at all compelling. Doubt has to be reasonable, after all. Anyway - there is a long way to go yet...
Given that all the reasons why absolute certainty as to the cause of Kim Wall's death cannot be established (body dismembered and dumped in weighted bags in the sea, submarine sunk) are the result of PM's own deliberate actions, I don't think they are at all compelling. Doubt has to be reasonable, after all. Anyway - there is a long way to go yet...
A nitpick - they should have said 'not proved to be the killer', I think. He can't be proved not to be, but the defence is trying, as stated, to establish reasonable doubt.
PS Thanks, JJ, for the Twitter material.
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:tyou: again all for postin on what's going on in the courtroom!
So they had 6 witnesses yesterday (3/22) ?? I didn't keep count as I was reading....
So they had 6 witnesses yesterday (3/22) ?? I didn't keep count as I was reading....
Sorry to keep on about Google translate, but honestly - this bit of the EB live feed says the prosecutor was asking about a wristwatch! I take it 'skaft' is 'saw'! EDIT or handle? Is 'fuskvans' saw?
9.20
Anklageren spørger nu ind til den fuksvans med orange skaft, som plejede at hænge i laboratoriet.
- Den hang der ikke efter 10. august, siger vidnet.
- Hvad bruger man en fuksvans til?
- Til at save i træ, siger vidnet.
- Har du nogen sinde set den i ubåden?
- Nej, aldrig, siger vidnet.
9.20
Anklageren spørger nu ind til den fuksvans med orange skaft, som plejede at hænge i laboratoriet.
- Den hang der ikke efter 10. august, siger vidnet.
- Hvad bruger man en fuksvans til?
- Til at save i træ, siger vidnet.
- Har du nogen sinde set den i ubåden?
- Nej, aldrig, siger vidnet.
This was their full translation:
The prosecutor now asks for the orange wristwatch, which used to hang in the laboratory.
"It did not last after August 10," the witness said.
- What do you use a fuss to?
- To save in wood, the witness says.
Have you ever seen it in the submarine?
- No, never, says the witness.
This is important, isn't it - he had never seen the saw on the sub, and he didn't see it in the workshop after 10 August.
The prosecutor now asks for the orange wristwatch, which used to hang in the laboratory.
"It did not last after August 10," the witness said.
- What do you use a fuss to?
- To save in wood, the witness says.
Have you ever seen it in the submarine?
- No, never, says the witness.
This is important, isn't it - he had never seen the saw on the sub, and he didn't see it in the workshop after 10 August.
Vidne: Madsen ville lave dødsporno
Sorry, wanted to post EB's introductory text but can't get it to reproduce here. It's a witness saying PM wanted to make a snuff movie. Google even manages to mangle 'snuff' to 'sniffing'. Will see if I can have a go at amending their translation.
Sorry, wanted to post EB's introductory text but can't get it to reproduce here. It's a witness saying PM wanted to make a snuff movie. Google even manages to mangle 'snuff' to 'sniffing'. Will see if I can have a go at amending their translation.
fukssvans med orange skaft is a saw with an orange handle.
Google pictures is very clear about that!
Madsen ville lave dødsporno is clear in Danish even without the google translation! and I do not even know Danish!
Death what a killer phrase. Tells it like it is, while snuff movie keeps it vague - is that deliberate?
Google pictures is very clear about that!
Madsen ville lave dødsporno is clear in Danish even without the google translation! and I do not even know Danish!
Death
what a killer phrase. Tells it like it is, while snuff movie keeps it vague - is that deliberate?
SATA
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A female witness just left the stand.
She used to be an intern at PM´s workshop, but in later years tried to distance herself from PM.
They had weird conversations centering around death, she claims.
They both had a fascination with death.
She had lost many people close to her to death.
She claimed PM was fantasizing about making snuff movies.
Betina Hald had some questions with which she aimed at discrediting the witness and asked her why, after she had distanced herself from PM, she sent him a photo of a woman´s genitals mirrored in a kitchen knife.
The witness´ answer makes little sense, I have to say, here is what she answered:
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
There is a lot more, but I can´t translate all today.
For this afternoon the court is closed. The witness who got closed doors granted is on the stand now.
No press, and not even Peter Madsen in the room.
He has been moved to an adjacent room from where he follows her testimony.
She used to be an intern at PM´s workshop, but in later years tried to distance herself from PM.
They had weird conversations centering around death, she claims.
They both had a fascination with death.
She had lost many people close to her to death.
She claimed PM was fantasizing about making snuff movies.
Betina Hald had some questions with which she aimed at discrediting the witness and asked her why, after she had distanced herself from PM, she sent him a photo of a woman´s genitals mirrored in a kitchen knife.
The witness´ answer makes little sense, I have to say, here is what she answered:
- I sent a picture to him because I wanted a reaction from him, says the witness.
"But if you'd want a distance from him, why did you send that picture?" Says the defender.
"Because I wanted to make sure he did not come to my apartment when I showed it to other tenants, the witness says that Peter Madsen had the key to the apartment and that he shared it with others.
"But if you'd want a distance from him, why did you send that picture?" Says the defender.
"Because I wanted to make sure he did not come to my apartment when I showed it to other tenants, the witness says that Peter Madsen had the key to the apartment and that he shared it with others.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
There is a lot more, but I can´t translate all today.
For this afternoon the court is closed. The witness who got closed doors granted is on the stand now.
No press, and not even Peter Madsen in the room.
He has been moved to an adjacent room from where he follows her testimony.
@CaliforniaRobin
#Day4 Livetweeting the tragic murder trial of Swedish journalist, Kim Wall, who went to interview a Danish inventor on his submarine and ended up decapitated in the ocean.
One question from yesterday - did #kimwall call #petermadsen on 10 August? This could matter for premeditation.
#court is in session. #petermadsen has a new outfit on - jeans and a jacket
Witness 7: John, a Swede who worked as machine assistant for a freightship, the Ternvag. There were 13 workers on board the 10 August. With about 400 tons fuel on board.
At 23:24 on 10 August, there was a full moon, he could see there was a submarine 30 meters away. If there had been a crash the submarine would have been destroyed & the freight ship would have suffered damage.
Defense asks: when you saw the submarine what happened? Answer: I told my colleagues, we called a newspaper & the paper called the police. We didn’t do anything because we thought the submarine would get out of the way.
Witness 8: A trainee Bjarke whom #PeterMadsen has talked about. He worked full-time at the space lab beginning in April. He had a good relation with #Madsen
Witness: Re the months up to 8 Aug when their project got cancelled. “We were all stressed and at the same time we weren’t sure we could complete the project.” We were frustrated”
How did #petermadsen behave? Answer: He worked mainly on the computer. He was very much away from our work.
Witness 8 had cleaned the submarine the week before and had been down in the submarine a couple times that day. He didn’t see a hose.
#petermadsen had been reading a book in Danish that summer, “You hunt a beast, you find a human.” #petermadsen had described a capital about the police finding parts of a body.
The prosecutor is methodically going through tools used on #KimWall and what they were normally used for. The saw was not were it was supposed to be in the lab. There was not normally a camera in the submarine.
Witness 8 seemed calm and convincing. Now it is the defenses turn to question.
Defense: what was it like to work with #PeterMadsen? “Good...it was lovely.. He was exciting to listen to....He was nice and friendly..Question: was he structured? Answer: yes and no.
Question: How do describe #PeterMadsen now? Answer: he can of course be mad about something, ...but it was not personal.”
Defense reads Bjarke’s earlier statement that #petermadsen was fun and nice ... he could be hot tempered ...Answer: I still think that...
#PeterMadsens reading habits. He read allot and had time during the music festival #copenhell to read the book in Danish “you hunt a beast, you find a human being.”
Bjarke has sailed on the submarine 10 times & under water 2x. Defense: How did you get in or out of the submarine? Answer: the first hatch, not the one with the tower. The first was #kimwall #petermadsen #dkjura #submarinecase #submarinetrial
Defense: where was #PeterMadsen? Answer: He was out allot, in his office or home. Defense: you didn’t know where he was? Answer: no.
Defense finished. Prosecutor asks follow-up: Did #petermadsen plan to take the day off on Friday Aug 10?
#Day4 Livetweeting the tragic murder trial of Swedish journalist, Kim Wall, who went to interview a Danish inventor on his submarine and ended up decapitated in the ocean.
One question from yesterday - did #kimwall call #petermadsen on 10 August? This could matter for premeditation.
#court is in session. #petermadsen has a new outfit on - jeans and a jacket
Witness 7: John, a Swede who worked as machine assistant for a freightship, the Ternvag. There were 13 workers on board the 10 August. With about 400 tons fuel on board.
At 23:24 on 10 August, there was a full moon, he could see there was a submarine 30 meters away. If there had been a crash the submarine would have been destroyed & the freight ship would have suffered damage.
Defense asks: when you saw the submarine what happened? Answer: I told my colleagues, we called a newspaper & the paper called the police. We didn’t do anything because we thought the submarine would get out of the way.
Witness 8: A trainee Bjarke whom #PeterMadsen has talked about. He worked full-time at the space lab beginning in April. He had a good relation with #Madsen
Witness: Re the months up to 8 Aug when their project got cancelled. “We were all stressed and at the same time we weren’t sure we could complete the project.” We were frustrated”
How did #petermadsen behave? Answer: He worked mainly on the computer. He was very much away from our work.
Witness 8 had cleaned the submarine the week before and had been down in the submarine a couple times that day. He didn’t see a hose.
#petermadsen had been reading a book in Danish that summer, “You hunt a beast, you find a human.” #petermadsen had described a capital about the police finding parts of a body.
The prosecutor is methodically going through tools used on #KimWall and what they were normally used for. The saw was not were it was supposed to be in the lab. There was not normally a camera in the submarine.
Witness 8 seemed calm and convincing. Now it is the defenses turn to question.
Defense: what was it like to work with #PeterMadsen? “Good...it was lovely.. He was exciting to listen to....He was nice and friendly..Question: was he structured? Answer: yes and no.
Question: How do describe #PeterMadsen now? Answer: he can of course be mad about something, ...but it was not personal.”
Defense reads Bjarke’s earlier statement that #petermadsen was fun and nice ... he could be hot tempered ...Answer: I still think that...
#PeterMadsens reading habits. He read allot and had time during the music festival #copenhell to read the book in Danish “you hunt a beast, you find a human being.”
Bjarke has sailed on the submarine 10 times & under water 2x. Defense: How did you get in or out of the submarine? Answer: the first hatch, not the one with the tower. The first was #kimwall #petermadsen #dkjura #submarinecase #submarinetrial
Defense: where was #PeterMadsen? Answer: He was out allot, in his office or home. Defense: you didn’t know where he was? Answer: no.
Defense finished. Prosecutor asks follow-up: Did #petermadsen plan to take the day off on Friday Aug 10?
SATA
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Google Translate is like a drunk person on acid too.
The mistakes aren´t even consistent! Things are translated differently from time to time, and as L_I says, you have to correct so much for it make sense at all.
Obviously you miss a lot and sorry about that!
The mistakes aren´t even consistent! Things are translated differently from time to time, and as L_I says, you have to correct so much for it make sense at all.
Obviously you miss a lot and sorry about that!
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