Did JonBenet Have A Nosebleed The Night She Died?

[rashomon]

[JMO 8778]
why were her arms over her head, and do you think they changed her shirt at some point?

That would be my question too. Why not tie her wrists in front of her at the waist, or behind her back....as anyone would have expected them to be IF an intruder had of actually killed her....which he didn't. The arms up and over and loosely tied a long distance (what was it? 15 inches or so?) away from each other, doesn't exactly scream "an intruder did it".

Maybe it wasn't meant to suggest a kidnapping scene in the first place, but a sexual crime which involved bonding and 'garroting'. Some IDIs on forums actually believe that "the sexual predator" attached the 15-inch space cord between JB's wrists to a hook in the ceiling. LOL!

Re the shirt: I don't think they changed the sequined shirt JB had been wearing to the Whites'. I believe JB never went to bed that night. The Ramseys' story was they had put her to bed in the shirt.

I don't remember exactly, but wasn't there also an earlier version offered by them about JB wearing the red turtleneck to bed?

 

[Ames]

Maybe it wasn't meant to suggest a kidnapping scene in the first place, but a sexual crime which involved bonding and 'garroting'. Some IDIs on forums actually believe that "the sexual predator" attached the 15-inch space cord between JB's wrists to a hook in the ceiling. LOL!

I have never heard of anyone being "bonded" before with a 15 inch space of cord between their wrists though. That spacing is what gets me.....what was the reason for it? It obviously screams staging, because if an intruder had of done it...which he didn't...but, IF he had of, he wouldn't have spaced them so far apart and above her head. IF an intruder did it for bondage, while JB was still alive...(would an intruder "bind" a dead or unconscious girl?)...she would have been able to fight him, with that amount of cord stretched between her wrists...not to mention the arms were above her head. I imagine that if it had been a REAL intruder....which it wasn't...but IF it had of been....then he would have bound her wrists, together, and behind her back...or in front of her....while she was still conscious. I just don't believe that he would have taken the time, IF it had of been an intruder (which it wasn't)...to bind an unconscious or dead girl's wrists....and whats the point...not to mention that 15 inch space of cord between them. Her body screams STAGING....(by the parents).


LOL...Yes, I have read that IDI theory before. That just adds something ELSE to take up time in the Ramsey home....and if an IDI, and wanted to fasten her to a ceiling, wouldn't he have taken her out of the house, to someplace else for that? WOW...talk about not being afraid of getting caught!! That is so ridiculous...

 

[rashomon]

I have never heard of anyone being "bonded" before with a 15 inch space of cord between their wrists though. That spacing is what gets me.....what was the reason for it? It obviously screams staging, because if an intruder had of done it...which he didn't...but, IF he had of, he wouldn't have spaced them so far apart and above her head. IF an intruder did it for bondage, while JB was still alive...(would an intruder "bind" a dead or unconscious girl?)...she would have been able to fight him, with that amount of cord stretched between her wrists...not to mention the arms were above her head. I imagine that if it had been a REAL intruder....which it wasn't...but IF it had of been....then he would have bound her wrists, together, and behind her back...or in front of her....while she was still conscious. I just don't believe that he would have taken the time, IF it had of been an intruder (which it wasn't)...to bind an unconscious or dead girl's wrists....and whats the point...not to mention that 15 inch space of cord between them. Her body screams STAGING....(by the parents).


LOL...Yes, I have read that IDI theory before. That just adds something ELSE to take up time in the Ramsey home....and if an IDI, and wanted to fasten her to a ceiling, wouldn't he have taken her out of the house, to someplace else for that? WOW...talk about not being afraid of getting caught!! That is so ridiculous...

That is indeed so ridiculous that I orignally couldn't believe this poster was serious. But she was.

The way the body was found screams staging indeed. For with a 15-inch space of cord between the wrists JB could have freed her hands easily. I think the stager of the scene (Patsy imo) was so panicky that she did not realize how clumsily the wrist ligatures and the garrote were done by her. She frantically looped and tied some cord around the wrists and that was it. jmo.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Right, the hands hanging from a hook on the ceiling theory. This ultimately spawns from John Walsh's comment about JR seeing JB hanging and cutting her down.

There is no proof of that. JR never once said JB was hanging or she had to be cut down, and neither has anyone else that was in that house on 12/26. I have never heard anyone say there's a hook there to suspend anyone's hands from, or that any fibers from the rope were ever found on any hooks or pipes, etc, that were overhead.

Even if it could be proven that her hands were suspended from over her head, which would be hard, since there are no wrist wounds indicating so, she still could have slipped her hands out easily, because they were tied so loosely.

They'd have done better to put her hands side by side and just wrap the cord around both wrists at the same time, wrapping the extra length around, even going up her forearms with it, to use it all. Then at least it would have looked like she had been tied up with the intent of restraining a live child. It was obviously staging, imo.

 

[Ames]

That is indeed so ridiculous that I orignally couldn't believe this poster was serious. But she was.

The way the body was found screams staging indeed. For with a 15-inch space of cord between the wrists JB could have freed her hands easily. I think the stager of the scene (Patsy imo) was so panicky that she did not realize how clumsily the wrist ligatures and the garrote were done by her. She frantically looped and tied some cord around the wrists and that was it. jmo.

I agree with you. But, I still am wondering if there had been some time between the head wound, the strangulation...and the tying of the wrists. I am sure that they/she was panicking, and trying to figure out what to do next. By that time, could rigormortis not have started to settle in? And thats why they were spaced so far apart, because they couldn't have been moved any closer? The tying of the hands, maybe was the very last thing that was done to her, after the taking off of clothes and wiping her down, the paintbrush insertion, the redressing, the making and using of the garotte....etc. By that time, am pretty sure that rigormortis would have started to settle in...not completely though. But, one thing is for sure....whether her hands weren't bound together because of rigormortis, or because of a panicky Patsy...there was NO intruder. THAT much I DO know..

 

[Ames]

Right, the hands hanging from a hook on the ceiling theory. This ultimately spawns from John Walsh's comment about JR seeing JB hanging and cutting her down.

There is no proof of that. JR never once said JB was hanging or she had to be cut down, and neither has anyone else that was in that house on 12/26. I have never heard anyone say there's a hook there to suspend anyone's hands from, or that any fibers from the rope were ever found on any hooks or pipes, etc, that were overhead.

Even if it could be proven that her hands were suspended from over her head, which would be hard, since there are no wrist wounds indicating so, she still could have slipped her hands out easily, because they were tied so loosely.

They'd have done better to put her hands side by side and just wrap the cord around both wrists at the same time, wrapping the extra length around, even going up her forearms with it, to use it all. Then at least it would have looked like she had been tied up with the intent of restraining a live child. It was obviously staging, imo.

Yep, Fleet was with John when he "found" JB. And he has never, to my knowledge anyway, said ANYTHING about JB having to be cut down from anywhere. And HE was there....HE should know.


I totally agree with you on that.

 

[JMO8778]

I don't remember exactly, but wasn't there also an earlier version offered by them about JB wearing the red turtleneck to bed?

yes,PR originally said JB went to bed wearing the red shirt...but then,why would she go to bed wearing a shirt anyway,if she was awake enough to be changed into something else?? Was PR just trying to account for the shirt somehow;was it used in a prior staging??
BUT,the coroner says she was manually strangled with a shirt collar first..so was the white gap collar twisted and stretched,or was she strangled with something else bf the garrote,like a scarf?? I wonder what the shirt collar on the white shirt looks like...is it neat,or messed up?

 

[UKGuy]

yes,PR originally said JB went to bed wearing the red shirt...but then,why would she go to bed wearing a shirt anyway,if she was awake enough to be changed into something else?? Was PR just trying to account for the shirt somehow;was it used in a prior staging??
BUT,the coroner says she was manually strangled with a shirt collar first..so was the white gap collar twisted and stretched,or was she strangled with something else bf the garrote,like a scarf?? I wonder what the shirt collar on the white shirt looks like...is it neat,or messed up?

JMO8778,

Yes I reckon Patsy was trying to cover up the use of the red turtleneck by saying JonBenet had tried it on, but declined to wear it.

The police have an advantage here since both the white gap top and the red turtleneck should be examined for both traces of JonBenet's dna and twisting of the neck.

imo the red turtleneck may have been used in a prior staging or been worn during the assault that led to her death?


.

 

[rashomon]

yes,PR originally said JB went to bed wearing the red shirt...but then,why would she go to bed wearing a shirt anyway,if she was awake enough to be changed into something else?? Was PR just trying to account for the shirt somehow;was it used in a prior staging??
BUT,the coroner says she was manually strangled with a shirt collar first..so was the white gap collar twisted and stretched,or was she strangled with something else bf the garrote,like a scarf?? I wonder what the shirt collar on the white shirt looks like...is it neat,or messed up?

The coroner did not say she was manually strangled with a shirt collar first.

 

[JMO8778]

The coroner did not say she was manually strangled with a shirt collar first.

I'm going on what's in ST's 'JonBenet',hardback,p. 228 (it was Dr Spitz,you're right),anyway:

First there had been a manual strangulation,by twisting the collar of the shirt,with the perpetrator's knuckles causing the neck abrasions.That was consistent with a rage type attack.

ST thinks she wore the red shirt to bed,so,it would seem the red shirt has that evidence on it..the collar being twisted,etc.I've seen arguments where some say ST changed the evidence to fit his scenario,however,I think that's just a flimsy excuse,and he would know,given he had access to all the evidence and the professional opinions on it,(Athena!).

 

[UKGuy]

The coroner did not say she was manually strangled with a shirt collar first.

rashomon,

That is correct, what he did say was:

Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.

and asphyxia by strangulation can also include a manual strangulation employing a shirt as a ligature or garrote, or not as the case may be.

The lower abrasions on JonBenet's neck are not circumferential, whereas the upper one patently is, as seen in the autopsy photographs, this implies two separate asphyxiation attempts, just as the separate abrasions on her head and temple imply more than one blow to the head, but this is not enumerated in the cause of death either.

It was put to Patsy by the investigator's that there was evidence of prior vaginal trauma, this is not itemised in the autopsy either, patently the autopsy report is not a definitive reference in what caused the death of JonBenet.


.

 

[Ames]

I'm going on what's in ST's 'JonBenet',hardback,p. 228 (it was Dr Spitz,you're right),anyway:

First there had been a manual strangulation,by twisting the collar of the shirt,with the perpetrator's knuckles causing the neck abrasions.That was consistent with a rage type attack.

ST thinks she wore the red shirt to bed,so,it would seem the red shirt has that evidence on it..the collar being twisted,etc.I've seen arguments where some say ST changed the evidence to fit his scenario,however,I think that's just a flimsy excuse,and he would know,given he had access to all the evidence and the professional opinions on it,(Athena!).

I believe that Steve Thomas is right on. I have always wondered if she had been grabbed up by the collar on the turtleneck. It would be easier to strangle someone with a turtle neck, than with a regular type collar. I have never tried it, but it seems like it would be easier.

 

[JMO8778]

I believe that Steve Thomas is right on. I have always wondered if she had been grabbed up by the collar on the turtleneck. It would be easier to strangle someone with a turtle neck, than with a regular type collar. I have never tried it, but it seems like it would be easier.

right,and I would think they wouldn't leave a shirt on her that she'd been strangled in.

 

[Ames]

right,and I would think they wouldn't leave a shirt on her that she'd been strangled in.

Yeah, I wouldn't think that either. They probably hadn't thought far enough ahead at the time, about the IDI plan. So, they took the shirt off of her, probably because it contained evidence. I don't believe that Steve Thomas would have came up with that scenario, if he didn't have some sort of evidence or reason.

 

[Solace]

That is indeed so ridiculous that I orignally couldn't believe this poster was serious. But she was.

The way the body was found screams staging indeed. For with a 15-inch space of cord between the wrists JB could have freed her hands easily. I think the stager of the scene (Patsy imo) was so panicky that she did not realize how clumsily the wrist ligatures and the garrote were done by her. She frantically looped and tied some cord around the wrists and that was it. jmo.

I don't know. I tend to think that John did the staging and Patsy wrote the note. Maybe she got him some materials such as the cord and the tape and her fibers transfer, but I think John does the staging.

 

[Toltec]

The white shirt did not look stretched or wrinkled.

The only reason I could think of why Patsy changed JonBenet's turtleneck to the white shirt is evidence on the turtleneck. We do not know if evidence of anything was found on the red turtleneck.

Steve Thomas believes JonBenet was wearing the red turtleneck when she was killed. Other than being found balled up in the bathroom, I believe Steve knows that there is evidence on the turtleneck.

 

[JMO8778]

The white shirt did not look stretched or wrinkled.

The only reason I could think of why Patsy changed JonBenet's turtleneck to the white shirt is evidence on the turtleneck. We do not know if evidence of anything was found on the red turtleneck.

Steve Thomas believes JonBenet was wearing the red turtleneck when she was killed. Other than being found balled up in the bathroom, I believe Steve knows that there is evidence on the turtleneck.

I think so,too.

 

[JMO8778]

I don't know. I tend to think that John did the staging and Patsy wrote the note. Maybe she got him some materials such as the cord and the tape and her fibers transfer, but I think John does the staging.

I think so too,although her fibers are in the paint tray itself.But,she could have handed him the paintbrush,if she was getting the items for him.Maybe he even told her to break the paintbrush,and she did.
Besides the knot and garrote,the large Wed. underwear screams of JR,IMO.Why was it so important for it to appear as though that was the same underwear she had on that day? It would seem to be more imprt to JR than to PR,depending on motive the for that,but seeing as JR's fibers were found there,it screams that he did that part,and maybe PR was upstairs doing the final draft of the RN then.
I also think it's possible that JR was the one that used the rope that caused JB to take her final breath..that part seems controlled.The head wound,manual strangling and abrasions seem to be someone out of control.

 

[DeeDee249]

Steve Thomas must have seen the photos from the White's party. Anyone privy to that information already knows whether the white Gap shirt was part of the redressing/staging or not. I don't suppose the public will ever know, as the full extent of evidence won't be made public as long as the case remains "open". (as if).
It's the same with the autopsy report. Public documents that have information hidden or redacted are supposed to indicate that fact by showing where things are blacked out, or by indicating where things are supposed to be. The autopsy doesn't indicate anything was edited, but there were so many irregularities in the way the coroner worked, that I don't think it can be assumed the report is complete the way we see it. In all the interviews, each line is numbered. There are many, many numbered lines with nothing written. There is a lot of info we don't have!

 

[JMO8778]

Hi and welcome.I'm sure you'll like it here.
ST said JB did wear the white shirt to the party.He believes she wore the red shirt to bed.The only reason I can see why that might be is if that was to make dressing time shorter in the morning,since they had an early flight scheduled the next day.