Did JR tell us the Plan, #2 - RDI Only thread

[Venom]

I wonder about the chair and why JR brought it up. After reading everything I know about this case, I think JR is a liar and a bad person. I would not believe ANYTHING he said. If French and FW did not mention the chair, then the chair probably was not there, which means that JR had some ulterior motive for saying that. What that would be is anyone's guess. But again, JR is not one to be trusted IMO.

You just wrote my thought out on the chair. If 2 people didn't see it, it wasn't there (sorry I'm going to take FW and French's word on it, JR doesn't come off as the patron saint of honesty) then there has to be a reason for JR to say that the chair was there. I can't think of the why. Does he want people to think that the intruder put the chair in the doorway then made his way over to the window to slither out of the house?

 

[Anyhoo]

FYI:

I did some online research about the photograph that supposedly showed the pages of the RN lined up on the spiral staircase prior to Christmas morning. The photograph in question is 12OTET8. If someone has that photograph, please post it here. What I found in my research is no reference at all to this photograph being of the RN tablet and two pages from it lined up side by side on the spiral staircase. I would be very interested to hear where komrik got that from. Also, Komrik seems confused on one point. Komrik thinks the photo in question was taken before the Christmas morning picture but the police transcript does not say that. In the police transcript, PR asked the question: This photo was taken before the Christmas morning one? The police correct her and say before the police photos. That is a big distinction. Even if the photo was of the RN, it could simply be that JR was asked by police to take pictures to the end of the roll of film and one of those pictures was of the RN on the spiral staircase. It does not indicate a conspiracy. So this whole thing sounds like it is smoke but no fire caused by komrik's misinterpretation of the evidence.

 

[Scandigirl]

Of all things to get involved with, young defenseless girls in foreign countries that are sold as sex slaves. That was the biggest tell for me. And the photo of his other dead daughter by bathtub???? I hope the truth comes out.

I also remember a photo of JBR posed as Marilyn Monroe. His idea??

Annoyingly, I can't remember where I read this, a few weeks ago, but I came across a couple of paragraphs about a girl who was in Beth Ramsey's school- I think she was in the year or 2 above her...

She apparently said that she remembered being at school (and living in Boulder) when Beth died, and how shocked she was, because she remembered Beth as a sweet girl... She said that she heard rumours that Beth's car accident wasn't an accident, and that John Ramsey had "arranged" for the car's breaks to be deliberately cut. She was insinuating that it was no coincidence that 2 of his daughters had died, and that he must be some kind of monster behind the scenes.

Just wanted to share it, but of course there are so many unproven rumours, and you have to be so careful, as it may or not be true. Just something I read, and I've no idea if there's any truth in it all.

 

[Anyhoo]

Annoyingly, I can't remember where I read this, a few weeks ago, but I came across a couple of paragraphs about a girl who was in Beth Ramsey's school- I think she was in the year or 2 above her...

She apparently said that she remembered being at school (and living in Boulder) when Beth died, and how shocked she was, because she remembered Beth as a sweet girl... She said that she heard rumours that Beth's car accident wasn't an accident, and that John Ramsey had "arranged" for the car's breaks to be deliberately cut. She was insinuating that it was no coincidence that 2 of his daughters had died, and that he must be some kind of monster behind the scenes.

Just wanted to share it, but of course there are so many unproven rumours, and you have to be so careful, as it may or not be true. Just something I read, and I've no idea if there's any truth in it all.

I would not believe anything like this. IMO someone just made this up. I don't think it is even worth discussing here.

 

[Scandigirl]

FYI:

I did some online research about the photograph that supposedly showed the pages of the RN lined up on the spiral staircase prior to Christmas morning. The photograph in question is 12OTET8. If someone has that photograph, please post it here. What I found in my research is no reference at all to this photograph being of the RN tablet and two pages from it lined up side by side on the spiral staircase. I would be very interested to hear where komrik got that from. Also, Komrik seems confused on one point. Komrik thinks the photo in question was taken before the Christmas morning picture but the police transcript does not say that. In the police transcript, PR asked the question: This photo was taken before the Christmas morning one? The police correct her and say before the police photos. That is a big distinction. Even if the photo was of the RN, it could simply be that JR was asked by police to take pictures to the end of the roll of film and one of those pictures was of the RN on the spiral staircase. It does not indicate a conspiracy. So this whole thing sounds like it is smoke but no fire caused by komrik's misinterpretation of the evidence.

Hi Anyhoo,

Thanks for your research. That's interesting, and you have to be so careful to make sure things don't get misinterpreted. Komrik might well have done so.

The only thing I'd think of asking is: is it likely that anyone in the police would ask John to finish off a roll of film for them, and if they had, wouldn't they know that? If so, why indicate that they were suspicious, and question the Ramsey's about it? Unless there was simply a lack of communication about it among the police?

Or, could it be that this was an excuse made by John, to explain it away?
I'm not saying that it is suspicious, just wondering about it, that's all.

 

[Venom]

Hi Anyhoo,

Thanks for your research. That's interesting, and you have to be so careful to make sure things don't get misinterpreted. Komrik might well have done so.

The only thing I'd think of asking is: is it likely that anyone in the police would ask John to finish off a roll of film for them, and if they had, wouldn't they know that? If so, why indicate that they were suspicious, and question the Ramsey's about it? Unless there was simply a lack of communication about it among the police?

Or, could it be that this was an excuse made by John, to explain it away?
I'm not saying that it is suspicious, just wondering about it, that's all.

Why wouldn't the police just take the camera and film and get it developed without finishing off the roll?

To finish off the roll of film would likely cause confusion on when the last photo was that the R's took and compromise evidence.

 

[Anyhoo]

Hi Anyhoo,

Thanks for your research. That's interesting, and you have to be so careful to make sure things don't get misinterpreted. Komrik might well have done so.

The only thing I'd think of asking is: is it likely that anyone in the police would ask John to finish off a roll of film for them, and if they had, wouldn't they know that? If so, why indicate that they were suspicious, and question the Ramsey's about it? Unless there was simply a lack of communication about it among the police?

Or, could it be that this was an excuse made by John, to explain it away?
I'm not saying that it is suspicious, just wondering about it, that's all.

I attribute it to lack of communication among the police. One set of police ask JR to turn over the film and he has to finish the roll before taking it out of the camera and turning it over to LE. Later investigators saw the pictures and were confused by them.

 

[Venom]

I attribute it to lack of communication among the police. One set of police ask JR to turn over the film and he has to finish the roll before taking it out of the camera and turning it over to LE. Later investigators saw the pictures and were confused by them.

I'm assuming the camera was a 35mm, as they were big at the time. Didn't you have to just wind the roll up when done? So you could have wound it up and had it developed before the pictures were done?

 

[Anyhoo]

Why wouldn't the police just take the camera and film and get it developed without finishing off the roll?

To finish off the roll of film would likely cause confusion on when the last photo was that the R's took and compromise evidence.

JR was not considered a hard suspect, just a potential suspect. Had he been a hard suspect they would have just taken the camera and did what you said. At this point the parents were cooperating with LE and so there was no need to do that. It was enough just to be given the film. With some kind of cameras you need to advance the roll to the end to safely remove the roll otherwise opening the camera could expose/ruin the entire roll. So this looks to me like it is nothing at all.

 

[Anyhoo]

I'm assuming the camera was a 35mm, as they were big at the time. Didn't you have to just wind the roll up when done? So you could have wound it up and had it developed before the pictures were done?

I'm no camera expert but I have heard before that some rolls of film need to be advanced to the end to be safely removed and I am assuming that is what happened here.

 

[otg]

You just wrote my thought out on the chair. If 2 people didn't see it, it wasn't there (sorry I'm going to take FW and French's word on it, JR doesn't come off as the patron saint of honesty) then there has to be a reason for JR to say that the chair was there. I can't think of the why. Does he want people to think that the intruder put the chair in the doorway then made his way over to the window to slither out of the house?

Ohhhhh, Venom. That BBM phrase above with the thought of JR just got my mind racing. Coulda been better if I'd have spent more time on it, but you'll get the idea:

 

[otg]

Before digital cameras, the back of an early, manual 35mm camera was opened to place the roll of film. Then the beginning of the film was pulled across the lens opening to the opposite side to "engage" the notches in the film for advancing the roll after each shot. When the last shot was finished, there was a small crank that was pulled out to rewind the film to the beginning and into the roll's encasement before opening the back of the camera to remove the finished roll.

More expensive/advanced/later cameras had a motor that did this automatically. When the roll was placed inside and the camera cover closed, the motor would automatically advance the film to the very end, where the photos would begin. Once the last available photo frame was taken on the roll, the camera would automatically wind the rest of the film into its encasement.

On either of these types of cameras, if the back cover of the camera was opened before the film roll was finished, it would expose the last few photos taken to the light and ruin those negatives.

 

[Tadpole12]

FYI:

I did some online research about the photograph that supposedly showed the pages of the RN lined up on the spiral staircase prior to Christmas morning. The photograph in question is 12OTET8. If someone has that photograph, please post it here. What I found in my research is no reference at all to this photograph being of the RN tablet and two pages from it lined up side by side on the spiral staircase. I would be very interested to hear where komrik got that from. Also, Komrik seems confused on one point. Komrik thinks the photo in question was taken before the Christmas morning picture but the police transcript does not say that. In the police transcript, PR asked the question: This photo was taken before the Christmas morning one? The police correct her and say before the police photos. That is a big distinction. Even if the photo was of the RN, it could simply be that JR was asked by police to take pictures to the end of the roll of film and one of those pictures was of the RN on the spiral staircase. It does not indicate a conspiracy. So this whole thing sounds like it is smoke but no fire caused by komrik's misinterpretation of the evidence.

Heyya Anyhoo,

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9946"]John Ramsey BDA interview - June 23, 1998 - Forums For Justice[/ame]

12 LOU SMIT: Just one more
13 question. I have got a photograph here
14 called 17.7. Somehow this is in your roll
15 of pictures or someone's roll of pictures
16 from before, okay, and it shows, first of
17 all, put it to the camera so they can see
18 that. And I am going to show you that.
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
20 LOU SMIT: Do you know who
21 would have taken that photograph?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: It's remotely
23 possible that I was having trouble with my
24 camera, I think, and I don't remember doing
25 this, but I can remember just clicking the
0509
1 camera, trying to see if it worked.
2 LOU SMIT: When was that?
3 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, I don't
4 know. I mean it was, you know, the only time we
5 got the cameras out were typically at Christmas
6 time. But this looks like the pad frankly that
7 I gave her.
8 LOU SMIT: Does that look
9 like the spot where you would -- that you
10 picked it up from?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, my
12 recollection, yeah.
13 LOU SMIT: So that could be
14 the actual pad of a picture taken prior to
15 what happened?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: That's possible.
17 LOU SMIT: What else do you
18 notice?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, this bag is
20 still there, the school bag in the corner. The
21 toy is still roughly where it was. There is a,
22 I think that was a Santa Claus or something that
23 was --
24 LOU SMIT: Santa Claus suit?
25 JOHN RAMSEY: Suit, yeah, or
0510
1 something, likes look. I don't remember what it
2 was. But that's there. Looks like it's still
3 in this picture. This red present is still
4 there. Day-Timer is not there in this picture.
5 LOU SMIT: What?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: The Day-Timer
7 doesn't look like it's there in this picture.
8 LOU SMIT: In the picture
9 taken prior, the Day-Timer is not there?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I think that
11 is -- I think that is my Day-Timer, but I am
12 not sure. I had one that was similar, black.
13 LOU SMIT: You notice the
14 bags that are in this picture dated prior,
15 the prior one, the bags, the plastic bags,
16 does it appear as they have been moved to
17 you?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
19 Definitely.
20 LOU SMIT: Do you know why
21 they would have been moved?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know what's
23 in there. I mean it -- there is something else
24 of course here on the floor, looks like a
25 stocking or something, Christmas stocking. But
0511
1 no, I don't. I mean I can't -- sometimes when
2 we bag up clothes that we were going to give
3 away, you know, that might have been what that
4 was.
5 LOU SMIT: That's kind of
6 coincidental, isn't it, to have a
7 picture --
8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it is.
9 You think this came off my camera or
10 you're not sure?
11 MIKE KANE: I am pretty sure it
12 came off your camera.
13 JOHN RAMSEY: They asked if we had
14 any pictures of the Christmas party and I
15 literally -- well, it's possible, because we
16 had an unusual, an uncompleted roll of film in
17 the camera and I think I clicked off some
18 pictures fairly quickly just to finish up the
19 roll, handed it to the policeman, one of the
20 uniform fellows that was there, and they took it
21 to get developed.
22 LOU SMIT: Okay. So this
23 picture here with the pad --
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Could have
25 been when I was just burning up pictures.
0512
1 LOU SMIT: At the scene?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
3 LOU SMIT: That morning?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
5 LOU SMIT: So it could have been
6 taken just shortly before?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, it's
8 possible. That I think I remember they wanted
9 pictures of the party and I said yeah, we got
10 'em, there was wasn't complete.
11 LOU SMIT: So then that would
12 show the pad in its spot that morning?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
14 LOU SMIT: Prior to you giving it
15 to the police officer?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
17 LOU SMIT: That explains that then.

 

[otg]

BTW, the issue about what was in that picture was discussed at FFJ some time ago. If anyone wants to read for their thoughts and ideas back then, it's [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8701"]here[/ame].

 

[Tadpole12]

Heyy Anyhoo,

I had thought that the interview discussions were related to how the items mentioned, day planner and pad were laid out on the front table, and that Komrik's interpretation was speculative IMO.

 

[gramcracker]

some topics are easy to talk about, some are not:

'94 maybe; 1994 or '93, '94, somewhere in that timeframe. He was kind of our handyman. Patsy had him help her decorate for Christmas several years. I don't know if he made the gingerbread house or he had one of his friends make it. I assumed he had the house made. He did occasional handyman work, but mostly I think it was decorating around Christmas time. Because Patsy always decorated the house.

No, I don't remember specifically if he did. Probably not. You see, we were leaving town the next morning after Christmas. So I don't recall. We weren't going to have a Christmas party, so I don't think Patsy did a whole lot of decorating. So I don't recall if he did.

The biggest exposure which, say in retrospect, would be how stupid could we have been. But when she was in a children's parade in Boulder, I think it was December 6th or early December. And the kids had done it before. Actually they did it the year before as well. It's a neat children's parade. All the kids, and kids love to be in parades, and it just seemed like a fun thing for the kids to do. There's people lining the streets up and down.

vs

It's remotely possible that I was having trouble with my camera, I think, and I don't remember doing this, but I can remember just clicking the camera, trying to see if it worked.

I mean, I don't know. I mean it was, you know, the only time we got the cameras out were typically at Christmas time. But this looks like the pad frankly that I gave her.

I don't know what's in there. I mean it -- there is something else of course here on the floor, looks like a stocking or something, Christmas stocking. But no, I don't. I mean I can't -- sometimes when we bag up clothes that we were going to give away, you know, that might have been what that was.

[You think this came off my camera or you're not sure?]

They asked if we had any pictures of the Christmas party and I literally -- well, it's possible, because we had an unusual, an uncompleted roll of film in the camera and I think I clicked off some pictures fairly quickly just to finish up the roll, handed it to the policeman, one of the uniform fellows that was there, and they took it to get developed
_ _ _ _ _

this answer is precise/detail-oriented; few qualifiers are used until the afternoon activities are described

Well the plan was to leave the morning of the 26th. I had an airplane at the time that was on charter through a charter company run by Mike Archuleta, who is also a friend; became a friend. Mike was going to fly us that morning of the 26th from Jeffco to Minneapolis. We were going to get into Minneapolis before 11 and my older kids were going to arrive from Atlanta. From Atlanta to Minneapolis we were going to pick them up and then go on to Charlevoix. And we did it that way because Charlevoix was a difficult place to get to with airlines. And we were flying from Jeffco to Charlevoix, you fly literally almost fly over Minneapolis. So that would be real easy for us to stop in Minneapolis and pick them up. And they had really inexpensive tickets to get there on the airlines. So that was the plan. They we were going to stay there for I think it was till Friday. I forget what day the 26th was. (INAUDIBLE) but we were going to stay for a couple days and come back to Boulder around Friday. Then I think the next morning on Saturday, we were going to leave for this Big Red Boat trip with just JonBenet, Burke and Patsy and me. And that was a package deal. We had tickets on TWA and that was all kind of pretty pre-laid out for us. So that was the plan. I had gone out to the airport Christmas day to kind of tinker with airplane and load some presents and kind of get it pre-loaded because we're going to leave early in the morning. We had to be there, I wanted to be there when the kids arrive in Minneapolis.

I don't. He was just one of the guys that was there on Christmas day. But the airplane was in their hangar, in the maintenance hangar. Which is not normally where it's kept. But it was there that day. And I just puttered around for a few hours actually. Probably got home about threeish, probably.

 

[ShadyLady]

John Ramsey talking about using up shots on film....reminds me of Jodi Arias!! LOL

 

[Scandigirl]

Heyya Anyhoo,

John Ramsey BDA interview - June 23, 1998 - Forums For Justice

12 LOU SMIT: Just one more
13 question. I have got a photograph here
14 called 17.7. Somehow this is in your roll
15 of pictures or someone's roll of pictures
16 from before, okay, and it shows, first of
17 all, put it to the camera so they can see
18 that. And I am going to show you that.
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
20 LOU SMIT: Do you know who
21 would have taken that photograph?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: It's remotely
23 possible that I was having trouble with my
24 camera, I think, and I don't remember doing
25 this, but I can remember just clicking the
0509
1 camera, trying to see if it worked.
2 LOU SMIT: When was that?
3 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, I don't
4 know. I mean it was, you know, the only time we
5 got the cameras out were typically at Christmas
6 time. But this looks like the pad frankly that
7 I gave her.
8 LOU SMIT: Does that look
9 like the spot where you would -- that you
10 picked it up from?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, my
12 recollection, yeah.
13 LOU SMIT: So that could be
14 the actual pad of a picture taken prior to
15 what happened?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: That's possible.
17 LOU SMIT: What else do you
18 notice?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, this bag is
20 still there, the school bag in the corner. The
21 toy is still roughly where it was. There is a,
22 I think that was a Santa Claus or something that
23 was --
24 LOU SMIT: Santa Claus suit?
25 JOHN RAMSEY: Suit, yeah, or
0510
1 something, likes look. I don't remember what it
2 was. But that's there. Looks like it's still
3 in this picture. This red present is still
4 there. Day-Timer is not there in this picture.
5 LOU SMIT: What?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: The Day-Timer
7 doesn't look like it's there in this picture.
8 LOU SMIT: In the picture
9 taken prior, the Day-Timer is not there?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I think that
11 is -- I think that is my Day-Timer, but I am
12 not sure. I had one that was similar, black.
13 LOU SMIT: You notice the
14 bags that are in this picture dated prior,
15 the prior one, the bags, the plastic bags,
16 does it appear as they have been moved to
17 you?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
19 Definitely.
20 LOU SMIT: Do you know why
21 they would have been moved?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know what's
23 in there. I mean it -- there is something else
24 of course here on the floor, looks like a
25 stocking or something, Christmas stocking. But
0511
1 no, I don't. I mean I can't -- sometimes when
2 we bag up clothes that we were going to give
3 away, you know, that might have been what that
4 was.
5 LOU SMIT: That's kind of
6 coincidental, isn't it, to have a
7 picture --
8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it is.
9 You think this came off my camera or
10 you're not sure?
11 MIKE KANE: I am pretty sure it
12 came off your camera.
13 JOHN RAMSEY: They asked if we had
14 any pictures of the Christmas party and I
15 literally -- well, it's possible, because we
16 had an unusual, an uncompleted roll of film in
17 the camera and I think I clicked off some
18 pictures fairly quickly just to finish up the
19 roll, handed it to the policeman, one of the
20 uniform fellows that was there, and they took it
21 to get developed.
22 LOU SMIT: Okay. So this
23 picture here with the pad --
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Could have
25 been when I was just burning up pictures.
0512
1 LOU SMIT: At the scene?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
3 LOU SMIT: That morning?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
5 LOU SMIT: So it could have been
6 taken just shortly before?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, it's
8 possible. That I think I remember they wanted
9 pictures of the party and I said yeah, we got
10 'em, there was wasn't complete.
11 LOU SMIT: So then that would
12 show the pad in its spot that morning?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
14 LOU SMIT: Prior to you giving it
15 to the police officer?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
17 LOU SMIT: That explains that then.

Three things just struck me when re-reading this interview... Firstly, as gramcracker points out, it really stands out to me how non-committal John's language is, when questioned about this issue, full of "I thinks", "not sure", "possibly", etc. this may or may not mean anything, just an observation!

Secondly, it doesn't come across to me as if the police necessarily knew that the photos weren't incriminating when they started questioning him. It comes across to me, rather that they initially felt suspicious, and we're asking him to elaborate. They seemed to back off and accept it when John offered a (hesitant)' but reasonable explanation. But, if they were sure in the first place that nothing could be suspicious, why question him about it at all, particularly?

The third thing is that they were obviously concerned with the way the note pad and pages were positioned in the photo, in particular?

If I'm missing the point and getting confused, anyone feel free to correct me!

 

[DeDee]

BTW, the issue about what was in that picture was discussed at FFJ some time ago. If anyone wants to read for their thoughts and ideas back then, it's here.

The picture was also discussed here at Websleuths in 2007.

 

[dazeerae]

Random thought that I'm not sure what thread to post it to...hopefully I picked the right one.

Did anyone see the interview with John (and Patsy I think) where he said the worst part of the whole thing was finding the note that JonBenet was gone? NOT finding JonBenet's body...these are my words, not his. I found that to be very odd, among many odd things that were said.

Edited to state the obvious: at least with the ransom note, you have the possibility that your daughter is alive (if you're not perpetrator/accomplice). When you find your child's body in rigor mortis with an odor of decay, well....wouldn't that be the worst??!