Dina Shacknai wants Max's death reopened; gives ICU pic to media

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  • #541
This is about Dina trying to have Max's cased reopened and declared a homicide. Only Rebecca and her younger relative were there. There are many doubts about her story, and the chandelier plays a large part. Max did not have cuts from the chandelier. Why? Yes, it is very possible Rebecca could have brought in a ladder to quickly take down the chandelier, place it by Max, then place the razor scooter on Max. The she yells for the other Zahau there who is in the shower to "call 911 there's been an accident."

BTW, why hasn't the 911 call in Max's accident not been released?
 
  • #542
It's so amazing how Rebecca is being accused of doing the most unrealistic tasks. First, she's Houdini, and commits suicide, now she's bringing down the chandelier? No, I have to disagree with that opinion as well. Will Rebecca ever get justice?
 
  • #543
Should we get back to the case of Max's death being reopened? I personally feel it is warranted to prove things one way or another. His mother does deserve an answer, even if it is the same answer she had the first time around, MOO.
 
  • #544
I am late to this case and the RZ case....although they are hard to separate. But I got the hinkies from both Max's death and the super hinkies from RZ's "suicide".

Now do I understand that there was at the scene of Max's fall, another younger relative of RZ's? I did not know that! I thought just the younger sister already named. Hmmmmm.

My gut was always that MS had ADHD or ODD and he was riding a scooter or skateboard on the house, resulting in his death. As for RZ.....my gut, MOO is that there is no way in hot, sweaty, hell that she committed suicide in that manner.

I just don't see it. But I have no expertise. Admittedly.
 
  • #545
None of us have the expertise ...we can only speculate and discuss what we know about the case. My gut tells me a young lady would not (besides not possible) commit suicide in the manner suggested by LE.

As far as Maxfield, I tend to believe he was a normal rambunctious youngster playing in too big of a home that was not safe and unfortunately had a fatal accident.
 
  • #546
From all accounts, Max was not a rambunctious child and X<modsnip> demonstrated how he rode his scooter very slowly.

One of the problems with Rebecca's story is how that razor scooter ended up where it did...there is only one answer...she staged it.
 
  • #547
Because any investigator can easily figure out how fast or slow any given carpet is when riding a scooter on it. Most carpets are going to inhibit the speed of a scooter. And how the heck does a scooter get up and over the railing with a kid on it?

Maybe Max didn't fly over the railing, maybe he tried to ride his scooter ON the railing to make a jump to the chandelier. He was a boy and that's the type of stuff boys do. In video games you can fly, do flips on BMX bikes, get shot and come back to life, etc. Kids dont understand how life and death works at that age.

My 10 yr old 'stepson' is a dare devil. He will ride his skateboard on any railing, off of high curbs, picnic benches or whatever he thinks might make for a great jump. He scares me to death.

On Monday he jumped from halfway up the staircase to the living room floor, did a SWAT type roll and held his hands out like he had a gun. The imagination of a 10 yr old...I am sure I grew 100 gray hairs right then and there. I am always telling him not to do this or that.

I have no doubt his mother would try to accuse me of child abuse if he ever gets seriously injured in my care. She absolutely hates my existence and has never even had a conversation with me. Her choice. Believe me, I tried to establish a line of communication but she refuses.
 
  • #548
From all accounts, Max was not a rambunctious child and X<modsnip> demonstrated how he rode his scooter very slowly.

One of the problems with Rebecca's story is how that razor scooter ended up where it did...there is only one answer...she staged it.

The thing with kids though, is they can be cautious until they master something, then they take off like a bat out of hell.
 
  • #549
Maybe Max didn't fly over the railing, maybe he tried to ride his scooter ON the railing to make a jump to the chandelier. He was a boy and that's the type of stuff boys do. In video games you can fly, do flips on BMX bikes, get shot and come back to life, etc. Kids dont understand how life and death works at that age.

My 10 yr old 'stepson' is a dare devil. He will ride his skateboard on any railing, off of high curbs, picnic benches or whatever he thinks might make for a great jump. He scares me to death.

On Monday he jumped from halfway up the staircase to the living room floor, did a SWAT type roll and held his hands out like he had a gun. The imagination of a 10 yr old...I am sure I grew 100 gray hairs right then and there. I am always telling him not to do this or that.


I have no doubt his mother would try to accuse me of child abuse if he ever gets seriously injured in my care. She absolutely hates my existence and has never even had a conversation with me. Her choice. Believe me, I tried to establish a line of communication but she refuses.

I agree, a child in "character" can really get into their role.
 
  • #550
This is about Dina trying to have Max's cased reopened and declared a homicide. Only Rebecca and her younger relative were there. There are many doubts about her story, and the chandelier plays a large part. Max did not have cuts from the chandelier. Why? Yes, it is very possible Rebecca could have brought in a ladder to quickly take down the chandelier, place it by Max, then place the razor scooter on Max. The she yells for the other Zahau there who is in the shower to "call 911 there's been an accident."

BTW, why hasn't the 911 call in Max's accident not been released?
I don't know if installing or removing a chandelier is a quick job for one person. I could be wrong though
 
  • #551
I'm not aware of any request made by DS to the AG but in cases ruled a suicide and an accident, what would be the reason for LE to publicly reveal anybody's alibi?

Weren't they initially trying to determine whether it was a homicide vs suicide? Wouldn't they need to verify the alibis of all potential potential suspects?

This is the glaring flaw in the logic of this investigation. How did they rule out homicide? They showed flawed proof of suicide but never really adequately explained how the potential subjects were ruled out beginning with Adam and Nina and ending with Jonah and Dina.

I hope someone had evidence of valid alibis for the possible suspects here. The possible suspects were anybody with a potential motive who had access to the victim by proximity.
 
  • #552
Much criticism has been leveled by Dina, and her strident supporters, against Rebecca in the area of CPR performed on Max at the scene of the accident in the Spreckles mansion. The criticism implies Max would have been “salvageable” if only Rebecca had done CPR “better” or “sooner”, and that she had not only a duty, but as mandate to do so as a health care professional.

Just for reference, here is some information about California’s Good Samaratin Law:

http://knowledgebase.findlaw.com/kb/2009/Oct/32614.html

http://firstaid.about.com/od/medicallegal/a/07_no_good_sam.htm

Rebecca was a Lasik technician, probably a certified ophthalmic assistant, and possibly a certified ophthalmic technician. This is not a position such as an EMT, or ER nurse. It is highly likely that Rebecca NEVER had performed CPR on any actual person, but only on CPR mannequins for periodic renewal. From this perspective, I would classify RZ’s skill level as essentially a layperson in the area of knowledge and experience performing CPR, not as an experienced health professional. She worked in an outpatient setting in a Lasik clinic—and I’m not exaggerating when I say that if a Lasik clinic is having a lot of experience performing CPR, something is terribly, terribly wrong.

So, if we consider that RZ had potentially little to no experience performing CPR, let alone CPR on a child trauma victim, that puts her actions into perspective at the time of Max’s injury. Docs and nurses and other health professionals are thrilled when out of hospital CPR is performed at a high level, and the patient has an underlying condition that is salvageable. We continuously strive to increase the level of CPR skills and motivation in the general public with education and refresher training. But this is not the case most of the time. Laypeople become nervous, some panic, but most try their very best. The overwhelming majority still may not be able to deliver CPR continuously, with sufficient skill, to deliver a mean arterial pressure greater than 50 continuously. That is what is required according to a number of studies for the patient to have even the 11% chance of leaving the hospital alive. Only about 23% make it to the hospital ER with any amount of BP at all. That’s a pretty tall set of expectations for a layperson, who may have braindumped their entire CPR skills refresher from a few years back.

The overwhelming majority of patients who ARE saved with out of hospital CPR have experienced sudden cardiac arrest from an electrical disruptive physiological cause—NOT trauma. Think the high school athlete who collapses from something like undetected Wolf Parkinson White syndrome. Or middle aged and elderly people who collapse in v-fib or v-tach. These situations are not at all the same as massive head trauma, and spinal cord trauma. That’s why AED’s have proliferated—because for a tiny proportion of out- of- hospital cardiac arrests, the definitive treatment to save their lives is prompt electricity—defibrillation. Even then, statistics indicate barely 11% will survive to hospital discharge. This was NOT Max’s situation. Not by a long shot.

So I think it is supremely unfair to state or insinuate that Max would be alive today “IF ONLY” Rebecca had somehow done CPR as well, or better than the best ER nurse or Paramedic. She was in shock—she called 911 promptly—the situation had her FULL attention, and she was trying. Yes, she appears to have been pretty hysterical when paramedics arrived—and why shouldn’t she be? This beautiful child she loved was terribly injured, and in cardiac arrest. Who WOULDN’T be hysterical?? I have done CPR probably hundreds of times, but if it were a loved one of mine, I'm sure I'd be less collected or more nervous than usual.

There is simply nothing I can see that would justify any allegation of “negligence” in the area of CPR by a bystander like Rebecca. It is further character assassination of a woman who died an absolutely horrific death, with no justification of this criticism based in scientific fact. Max sustained a very serious spinal cord injury at the level of about C-1, 2. That is not compatible with life for nearly all patients. Statistics about SCI (spinal cord injury) don’t lie. The global hypoxia he experienced as a result of his prolonged arrest hastened his demise, but it’s highly unlikely he would have survived, even with “expert” CPR at the moment of his cardiac arrest. The ¾ inch of necrotic spinal cord described at autopsy explains the prognosis.

I won’t bore anyone at this point with a lengthy explanation of primary and secondary injury patterns in spinal cord injury (that's for another post), and the consequences of stretch/ distraction cord injuries, but this is easily googled for any who are interested. He didn't just have a "little bitty" contusion that would have resolved with some steroids and time.

Rebecca could not have saved Max with "better quality" bystander CPR. The fatal damage was done when he impacted the floor—whatever the pattern of that fall was. That’s my opinion, based on the medical science, the autopsy report, and all I’ve read about this case.
 
  • #553
I don't know if installing or removing a chandelier is a quick job for one person. I could be wrong though

Some chandeliers are made so the chain/cord can be lower in order to dust the chandelier. So it may not have been that hard for Rebecca to get it down.
 
  • #554
Much criticism has been leveled by Dina, and her strident supporters, against Rebecca in the area of CPR performed on Max at the scene of the accident in the Spreckles mansion. The criticism implies Max would have been &#8220;salvageable&#8221; if only Rebecca had done CPR &#8220;better&#8221; or &#8220;sooner&#8221;, and that she had not only a duty, but as mandate to do so as a health care professional.

Just for reference, here is some information about California&#8217;s Good Samaratin Law:

http://knowledgebase.findlaw.com/kb/2009/Oct/32614.html

http://firstaid.about.com/od/medicallegal/a/07_no_good_sam.htm

Rebecca was a Lasik technician, probably a certified ophthalmic assistant, and possibly a certified ophthalmic technician. This is not a position such as an EMT, or ER nurse. It is highly likely that Rebecca NEVER had performed CPR on any actual person, but only on CPR mannequins for periodic renewal. From this perspective, I would classify RZ&#8217;s skill level as essentially a layperson in the area of knowledge and experience performing CPR, not as an experienced health professional. She worked in an outpatient setting in a Lasik clinic&#8212;and I&#8217;m not exaggerating when I say that if a Lasik clinic is having a lot of experience performing CPR, something is terribly, terribly wrong.

So, if we consider that RZ had potentially little to no experience performing CPR, let alone CPR on a child trauma victim, that puts her actions into perspective at the time of Max&#8217;s injury. Docs and nurses and other health professionals are thrilled when out of hospital CPR is performed at a high level, and the patient has an underlying condition that is salvageable. We continuously strive to increase the level of CPR skills and motivation in the general public with education and refresher training. But this is not the case most of the time. Laypeople become nervous, some panic, but most try their very best. The overwhelming majority still may not be able to deliver CPR continuously, with sufficient skill, to deliver a mean arterial pressure greater than 50 continuously. That is what is required according to a number of studies for the patient to have even the 11% chance of leaving the hospital alive. Only about 23% make it to the hospital ER with any amount of BP at all. That&#8217;s a pretty tall set of expectations for a layperson, who may have braindumped their entire CPR skills refresher from a few years back.

The overwhelming majority of patients who ARE saved with out of hospital CPR have experienced sudden cardiac arrest from an electrical disruptive physiological cause&#8212;NOT trauma. Think the high school athlete who collapses from something like undetected Wolf Parkinson White syndrome. Or middle aged and elderly people who collapse in v-fib or v-tach. These situations are not at all the same as massive head trauma, and spinal cord trauma. That&#8217;s why AED&#8217;s have proliferated&#8212;because for a tiny proportion of out- of- hospital cardiac arrests, the definitive treatment to save their lives is prompt electricity&#8212;defibrillation. Even then, statistics indicate barely 11% will survive to hospital discharge. This was NOT Max&#8217;s situation. Not by a long shot.

So I think it is supremely unfair to state or insinuate that Max would be alive today &#8220;IF ONLY&#8221; Rebecca had somehow done CPR as well, or better than the best ER nurse or Paramedic. She was in shock&#8212;she called 911 promptly&#8212;the situation had her FULL attention, and she was trying. Yes, she appears to have been pretty hysterical when paramedics arrived&#8212;and why shouldn&#8217;t she be? This beautiful child she loved was terribly injured, and in cardiac arrest. Who WOULDN&#8217;T be hysterical?? I have done CPR probably hundreds of times, but if it were a loved one of mine, I'm sure I'd be less collected or more nervous than usual.

There is simply nothing I can see that would justify any allegation of &#8220;negligence&#8221; in the area of CPR by a bystander like Rebecca. It is further character assassination of a woman who died an absolutely horrific death, with no justification of this criticism based in scientific fact. Max sustained a very serious spinal cord injury at the level of about C-1, 2. That is not compatible with life for nearly all patients. Statistics about SCI (spinal cord injury) don&#8217;t lie. The global hypoxia he experienced as a result of his prolonged arrest hastened his demise, but it&#8217;s highly unlikely he would have survived, even with &#8220;expert&#8221; CPR at the moment of his cardiac arrest. The ¾ inch of necrotic spinal cord described at autopsy explains the prognosis.

I won&#8217;t bore anyone at this point with a lengthy explanation of primary and secondary injury patterns in spinal cord injury (that's for another post), and the consequences of stretch/ distraction cord injuries, but this is easily googled for any who are interested. He didn't just have a "little bitty" contusion that would have resolved with some steroids and time.

Rebecca could not have saved Max with "better quality" bystander CPR. The fatal damage was done when he impacted the floor&#8212;whatever the pattern of that fall was. That&#8217;s my opinion, based on the medical science, the autopsy report, and all I&#8217;ve read about this case.

Respectfully, I have never written that, and I have never read that. What we have written is not about the quality of c. p.r. that Rebecca may/may not have given. She was a technician, maybe she trained for it maybe she did not. The only point made regarding her and C.P.R. <modsnip>. I have respect for what you write and you know that, but I firmly believe she did not call for help when she stated. I have discussed this with many experts. The prolonged cardiopulmonary arrest would. not have caused global hypoxia so soon(taking into account the hospital is two minutes away and the 25 minutes by paramedics.) You wrote about the advanced brain trauma he presented with(decorticate rigidity and pupillary reflex) you think its normal for a spinal cord contusion at this level to cause such advanced signs by the time he reached the first hospital? Do you think 30 minutes after this type of injury is enough to cause global hypoxia? (His brain herniated later, in the hospital). The doctors and experts who post on this case who believe it was not an accident have always maintained even if she gave NO C.P.R. and just called for help, Max would have been saved. And from the first moment I started discussing this case, we all believed the fall was not the primary insult.
This is just my opinion and I am writing with nothing but respect.
 
  • #555
Weren't they initially trying to determine whether it was a homicide vs suicide? Wouldn't they need to verify the alibis of all potential potential suspects?

This is the glaring flaw in the logic of this investigation. How did they rule out homicide? They showed flawed proof of suicide but never really adequately explained how the potential subjects were ruled out beginning with Adam and Nina and ending with Jonah and Dina.

I hope someone had evidence of valid alibis for the possible suspects here. The possible suspects were anybody with a potential motive who had access to the victim by proximity.

AB admitted the other day that the whereabouts of Jonah and Dina were in fact verified.
 
  • #556
Respectfully, I have never written that, and I have never read that. What we have written is not about the quality of c. p.r. that Rebecca may/may not have given. She was a technician, maybe she trained for it maybe she did not. The only point made regarding her and C.P.R. is that she lied in that she gave it. I have respect for what you write and you know that, but I firmly believe she did not call for help when she stated. I have discussed this with many experts. The prolonged cardiopulmonary arrest would. not have caused global hypoxia so soon(taking into account the hospital is two minutes away and the 25 minutes by paramedics.) You wrote about the advanced brain trauma he presented with(decorticate rigidity and pupillary reflex) you think its normal for a spinal cord contusion at this level to cause such advanced signs by the time he reached the first hospital? Do you think 30 minutes after this type of injury is enough to cause global hypoxia? (His brain herniated later, in the hospital). The doctors and experts who post on this case who believe it was not an accident have always maintained even if she gave NO C.P.R. and just called for help, Max would have been saved. And from the first moment I started discussing this case, we all believed the fall was not the primary insult.
This is just my opinion and I am writing with nothing but respect.

Excellent summation of what matters. The evidence points to NO CPR until paramedics arrived. There's no excuse for failing to render aid and later lying about it to those attempting to save an innocent child's life. But then, I wouldn't expect the person responsible for his injuries to try to then help him. I would expect them to lie about it.

What we now know is that his mother feared for his safety while left alone with certain people and her worst fears became reality. So very sad.

JMO
 
  • #557
Only 8 % of people who go into cardiac arrest outside the hospital actually make it. Once Max went into cardiac arrest due to spinal cord damage, the odds were against him.
There is no evidence whatsoever that proves 911 wasn't called right away.
Most of people die because brain cells don't survive for long without oxygen.
That's a FACT.
 
  • #558
From all accounts, Max was not a rambunctious child and X<modsnip> demonstrated how he rode his scooter very slowly.

One of the problems with Rebecca's story is how that razor scooter ended up where it did...there is only one answer...she staged it.

Can you provide the link where "...X<modsnip> demonstrated how he rode his scooter very slowly." - thanks.
 
  • #559
Only 8 % of people who go into cardiac arrest outside the hospital actually make it. Once Max went into cardiac arrest due to spinal cord damage, the odds were against him.
There is no evidence whatsoever that proves 911 wasn't called right away.
Most of people die because brain cells don't survive for long without oxygen.
That's a FACT.

Because the odds were against Max from the get go it was therefore okay for an adult to stand by and do nothing? I don't understand your logic. Sorry.

JMO
 
  • #560
Can you provide the link where "...X<modsnip> demonstrated how he rode his scooter very slowly." - thanks.

It's mentioned in both reports by the experts.
 
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