Dina Shacknai wants Max's death reopened; gives ICU pic to media

[jjenny]

Because the odds were against Max from the get go it was therefore okay for an adult to stand by and do nothing? I don't understand your logic. Sorry.

JMO

Who says she stood by and did nothing? Except for some on the message board. For which they have no evidence.

 

[MyBelle]

Who says she stood by and did nothing? Except for some on the message board. For which they have no evidence.

There is evidence in the form of an official report from the first responder. The CPD officer who first responded said RZ told him she had given a "few rescue breaths" and then instructed her sister to call 9-1-1. The officer said when he arrived, RZ was crying and yelling MS' name.

To me, that is the equivalent of doing nothing to help the child. Of course, you may interpret it differently.

JMO

 

[Just Checking]

There is evidence in the form of an official report from the first responder. The CPD officer who first responded said RZ told him she had given a "few rescue breaths" and then instructed her sister to call 9-1-1. The officer said when he arrived, RZ was crying and yelling MS' name.

To me, that is the equivalent of doing nothing to help the child. Of course, you may interpret it differently.

JMO

Hmmm, clearly RZ states she did do "something!" She tried "a few rescue breaths" and called 911 - not bad if she new nothing about CPR. Now, IMO she may not have stated exactly everything she did do in this emotional situation - such as determining why she decided to provide a few breaths. I imagine that X<modsnip> could tell whomever exactly what she did.

 

[MyBelle]

Hmmm, clearly RZ states she did do "something!" She tried "a few rescue breaths" and called 911 - not bad if she new nothing about CPR. Now, IMO she may not have stated exactly everything she did do in this emotional situation - such as determining why she decided to provide a few breaths. I imagine that X<modsnip> could tell whomever exactly what she did.

I disagree. RZ was a medical technician who at some point worked in a surgical office. I can't imagine someone in her profession NOT being trained in CPR.

I don't believe she gave any breaths nor do I believe the child said, "Ocean" after hitting the ground with such force he suffered blunt force trauma and a spine injury.

I do believe a person guilty of child abuse will lie to police.

My opinion is that crying and yelling a victim's name is the equivalent of doing nothing to help him.

JMO

 

[FightTheOstrich]

Excellent summation of what matters. The evidence points to NO CPR until paramedics arrived. There's no excuse for failing to render aid and later lying about it to those attempting to save an innocent child's life. But then, I wouldn't expect the person responsible for his injuries to try to then help him. I would expect them to lie about it.

What we now know is that his mother feared for his safety while left alone with certain people and her worst fears became reality. So very sad.

JMO

If she feared for his safety and had such compelling evidence why didn't she and her divorce attorney take that information to the judge? It seems strange that she didn't act when she learned this information.
If it is true that she did have dirt on R, perhaps she didn't act on it bc there was just as much dirt on her. Now she can air R's dirty laundry bc custody and child support are not an issue. It just seems strange that a mother wouldn't have done more to protect her child if she had this information, IMO.

 

[gypsychild]

I disagree. RZ was a medical technician who at some point worked in a surgical office. I can't imagine someone in her profession NOT being trained in CPR.

I don't believe she gave any breaths nor do I believe the child said, "Ocean" after hitting the ground with such force he suffered blunt force trauma and a spine injury.

I do believe a person guilty of child abuse will lie to police.

My opinion is that crying and yelling a victim's name is the equivalent of doing nothing to help him.

JMO

I disagree. In a situation where you do not have an emotional tie to a person in distress, thinking clearly is far easier then when you are in a crisis situation with a child you love. I would believe hysteria is more likely when you are close to someone. And taking some classes on a CPR dummy does not really equip you to operate in an emergency. CPR classes are far different than Paramedic or EMT training.
I think there is a great deal of hinkiness about MS's accident however. But I don't believe RZ's performance of CPR or no CPR is really the issue.

 

[stmarysmead]

I am supposing that most of us here do not know the parties involved. I certainly don't. Therefore, for now, I tend to give most of the "victims" in this tragedy the benefit of the doubt.

To begin, I don't put much stock in the "violence" reported between two divorcing parties. They seemed to go on to be able to co-parent quite effectively. DS also seems to be quite fond of her step-children...mentions them in the most positive way on the website she set up for the Foundation. I think that is a real positive in her favor...that she bonded with those children.

I also do not put much stock in her concerns about leaving her son with RZ. This seems like a not uncommon reaction of an older Mother of an only child...to leaving her precious child to be supervised by the new girlfriend. I imagine RZ did have a pretty good relationship with Max...and I base this supposition on the fact that I think AS was a very doting father to all his children. I think any woman in his life would need to be seen by HIM...to care for his children as well. Just a guess here...I certainly can't prove it...but if so, it figures into my interpretation of the tragedy that occured.

I'm not sure Max was murdered. I'm withholding judgement on that. But I'm guessing that R began to feel as if she was being suspected of harming the child. Maybe AS repeated some things from DS or the the medical staff...that began to make RZ afraid. Afraid of losing AS at the minimum...or being charged by authorities if these accusations continued.

I wonder what AS told her in that last phone call? Did he say that Max was going to die and DS was blaming her for the death? A few days ago, RZ's life had been perfect...now it was a nightmare.

Perhaps AS used to say that her love "saved him." Now, in her desparation, she wonders if HE can save HER from these frightening accusations..."She saved him but can he save her?"

In her fear and misery, feeling very deserted and alone...she takes her life. The way she does it is bizarre...but almost like an act of atonement or self-punishment.

If the police know more about her conversations with AS in those days,particularly that last one... that may help to explain the verdict of suicide.

 

[FightTheOstrich]

There is evidence in the form of an official report from the first responder. The CPD officer who first responded said RZ told him she had given a "few rescue breaths" and then instructed her sister to call 9-1-1. The officer said when he arrived, RZ was crying and yelling MS' name.

To me, that is the equivalent of doing nothing to help the child. Of course, you may interpret it differently.

JMO

RZ was only human. She was not trained in emergency medicine. She was probably in shock. Did 911 stay on the line with her? What did 911 instruct her to do? I personally would have been extremely overwhelmed. He fell over a balcony, she was probably worried about neck, back, and head injuries. Perhaps she tried CPR and was scared, and shocked, and CPR wasn't working, and she was concerned she was doing more harm in respect to his other injuries. She did not have access to the tools, equipment and resources that even EMS have.

Bottom-line, she did act by calling 911. And it's unfair for anyone to expect her to have been a super hero emergency rescue hero in this situation.

 

[MyBelle]

If she feared for his safety and had such compelling evidence why didn't she and her divorce attorney take that information to the judge? It seems strange that she didn't act when she learned this information.
If it is true that she did have dirt on R, perhaps she didn't act on it bc there was just as much dirt on her. Now she can air R's dirty laundry bc custody and child support are not an issue. It just seems strange that a mother wouldn't have done more to protect her child if she had this information, IMO.

I only know what DS has stated publicly and that is that she had shared her concerns about the child's safety to JS. There has been no public response from JS that contradicts her claim. You'll have to ask her why she didn't involve the Court but there is no guarantee the Court could have prevented this tragedy.

Whatever "dirt" she had on RZ led her to fear for her son's safety. Her fears were justified. Bashing her because she didn't do "more" to save him is ridiculous. Domestic violence is a serious problem. Protection orders are ignored every day and innocent victims pay a dear price.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

RZ was only human. She was not trained in emergency medicine. She was probably in shock. Did 911 stay on the line with her? What did 911 instruct her to do? I personally would have been extremely overwhelmed. He fell over a balcony, she was probably worried about neck, back, and head injuries. Perhaps she tried CPR and was scared, and shocked, and CPR wasn't working, and she was concerned she was doing more harm in respect to his other injuries. She did not have access to the tools, equipment and resources that even EMS have.

Bottom-line, she did act by calling 911. And it's unfair for anyone to expect her to have been a super hero emergency rescue hero in this situation.

RZ didn't call 9-1-1, her sister did.

CPR is first aid. RZ worked in a surgical office. My daughter was trained so she could baby-sit. There is really no excuse for failing to provide first aid to an injured child. She didn't bother even lifting the scooter off the child's leg.

JMO

 

[K_Z]

Respectfully, I have never written that, and I have never read that. What we have written is not about the quality of c. p.r. that Rebecca may/may not have given. She was a technician, maybe she trained for it maybe she did not. The only point made regarding her and C.P.R. is that she lied in that she gave it. I have respect for what you write and you know that, but I firmly believe she did not call for help when she stated. I have discussed this with many experts. The prolonged cardiopulmonary arrest would. not have caused global hypoxia so soon(taking into account the hospital is two minutes away and the 25 minutes by paramedics.) You wrote about the advanced brain trauma he presented with(decorticate rigidity and pupillary reflex) you think its normal for a spinal cord contusion at this level to cause such advanced signs by the time he reached the first hospital? Do you think 30 minutes after this type of injury is enough to cause global hypoxia? (His brain herniated later, in the hospital). The doctors and experts who post on this case who believe it was not an accident have always maintained even if she gave NO C.P.R. and just called for help, Max would have been saved. And from the first moment I started discussing this case, we all believed the fall was not the primary insult.
This is just my opinion and I am writing with nothing but respect.

Bolded by me for focus. Thank you, Jessica, for that response. There are a lot of newer posters here commenting on this case who may not be aware that Websleuths has a voluntary process for confirming the credentials of licensed health care professionals, and other professionals, such as attorneys. I, for one, would genuinely welcome in-depth conversation with verified professionals and experts about the medical issues in this case-- both Max's and Rebecca's. It's a voluntary process-- instructions can be found in the sticky under "Professional Posters" in the forum listing, or if any of the experts and professionals want more information about the verification process, I'm sure any of the moderators can help. That would be really wonderful if some of these professionals and experts would take a few minutes "pro bono" to educate the interested members of the posting public. They can still maintain their anonymity with a screen name-- only the admins will have access to their professional licenses, credentials, etc.

I hope some of these professionals and experts will be persuaded to write some persuasive content for WS! That would be really interesting, and would promote sincere conversation beyond mere accusations, rumors, speculation, and sniping. I think it's a great suggestion, Jessica-- hope you are successful persuading any of them!

Gosh-- I also forgot to mention that Websleuths has a process for verifying "insiders" on a case-- posters who claim inside knowledge, or are relatives, or neighbors or close friends, of relevant players in cases. Same process-- contact a mod for more information. That would be very cool to have some insiders commenting that we all can have confidence that they are representing their information truthfully and ethically. Because anyone can hide behind a screen name and say just about anything, as I'm sure everyone knows!

 

[gypsychild]

I only know what DS has stated publicly and that is that she had shared her concerns about the child's safety to JS. There has been no public response from JS that contradicts her claim. You'll have to ask her why she didn't involve the Court but there is no guarantee the Court could have prevented this tragedy.

Whatever "dirt" she had on RZ led her to fear for her son's safety. Her fears were justified. Bashing her because she didn't do "more" to save him is ridiculous. Domestic violence is a serious problem. Protection orders are ignored every day and innocent victims pay a dear price.

JMO

In my custody agreement for my ss, it specifically stated that he was not to be alone in the presence of any non-related individual without our prior consent. This was a clause put into the agreement specifically because I worried the other parents judgment was questionable.
I am noting this because it is possible to agree to not allow unrelated people to care for your child per a written custody agreement.

 

[MyBelle]

In my custody agreement for my ss, it specifically stated that he was not to be alone in the presence of any non-related individual without our prior consent. This was a clause put into the agreement specifically because I worried the other parents judgment was questionable.
I am noting this because it is possible to agree to not allow unrelated people to care for your child per a written custody agreement.

It is possible to agree. It is also possible for someone to ignore an agreement and an innocent person die as a result which happened in this case.

JMO

 

[time]

I just want to add here for those who maintain that the Shacknai's, one or both of them, were putting on a show for court purposes.

Let's say we are talking about Dina's claims of abuse being exaggerated in police calls and court. On some of those claims, that would mean she was lying (if even in part) about someone else committing a criminal act, lying abut a crime when no crime occurred.

 

[time]

In my custody agreement for my ss, it specifically stated that he was not to be alone in the presence of any non-related individual without our prior consent. This was a clause put into the agreement specifically because I worried the other parents judgment was questionable.
I am noting this because it is possible to agree to not allow unrelated people to care for your child per a written custody agreement.

Is there any evidence that Dinah and Jonah had some legal agreement on this? I just can't remember seeing it and Dinah seems to be saying the conditions changed.

 

[*Lash*]

AB admitted the other day that the whereabouts of Jonah and Dina were in fact verified.

Hi Jessica! Can you provide a source. I asked yesterday in post #484 below. I believe this information being claimed as verified is VERY crucial to both investigations. In my opinion it is very important to have a source on record. TIA

Post #484-
Where was this confirmed? If you're are referring to the interview with Dr. Drew, AB is referring only to Jonah and only Rebecca's investigation. Dina is NOT mentioned. If you have a different source that would be great!

CASSIDY, ALABAMA: I have a couple of questions. My first question is, I heard nothing about the father. Is he a suspect in either homicide, supposedly homicide?

PINSKY: Well, yes. To call these homicides at this point is jumping the gun a little bit. And Anne, I`ll rephrase the question for you. I know you`re having trouble hearing Cassidy, which was --

BREMNER: Yes.

PINSKY: Where does the dad fit into this -- the story? Was he a suspect at one time?

BREMNER: Apparently, he was not. His name is Jonah Shacknai. He was cooperative through all of this. He had an alibi, and it was on video. They didn`t call anybody suspects in this case, Dr. Drew. They simply closed it out as a suicide, at least, with Rebecca, and then with Max, an accident. So, they never got to the point of using that type of terminology with anybody.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../ddhln.01.html

 

[gypsychild]

Is there any evidence that Dinah and Jonah had some legal agreement on this? I just can't remember seeing it and Dinah seems to be saying the conditions changed.

I do not know. From everything I have read thus far, it appears to have been a verbal agreement between DR and JS. My point is that if there was cause for concern, it is quite possible to have a custody agreement to state that the child can only be in the care of certain parties. It is not like RZ was a new girlfriend, there was plenty of time to add this addendum. And no, a clause in a custody agreement cannot always prevent this type of thing but can be helpful in holding the other parent in default of the agreement and allow stricter custody guidelines.

 

[Jessica2012]

Because the odds were against Max from the get go it was therefore okay for an adult to stand by and do nothing? I don't understand your logic. Sorry.

JMO

MyBelle, I agree with everything you have written. The odds were not against him surviving from get go...the paramedics were able to restart circulation within two rounds of medication.
The specialists initially thought he would make it. I believe help was not called when stated, and that was why he did not survive because of a lack of oxygen. You are completely right, it is not ok for a grown adult woman to stand around and do nothing, or do something else instead of calling for help.
C.P.R., no C.P.R. it does not matter. The bottom line is, she told many different stories to many different people, avoided every question about the accident, and acted very suspiciously. In the police car, she stated to X<modsnip>, "Dina is going to kill me." Why would she state that if she were just an innocent bystander when the child "fell"? She did not remember how she had found Maxie, and she did not know what happened, but when Nina asked her where the fall happened from, she pointed at the bedroom...the bedroom which only contained hers and Max's fingerprints. When the paramedics arrived, she remembered enough to blame the dog, and to say that Max was not asked to ride his scooter upstairs. How would somebody who was taking a shower at the time of this fatal "fall" and hypothetically was too in shock to give c.p.r., be able to come to a conclusion of how the child ended up in that condition in the two minutes it would have taken for paramedics to arrive?
Doesn't sound right to me.

 

[*Lash*]

I disagree. RZ was a medical technician who at some point worked in a surgical office. I can't imagine someone in her profession NOT being trained in CPR.

I don't believe she gave any breaths nor do I believe the child said, "Ocean" after hitting the ground with such force he suffered blunt force trauma and a spine injury.

I do believe a person guilty of child abuse will lie to police.

My opinion is that crying and yelling a victim's name is the equivalent of doing nothing to help him.

JMO

Hi MyBelle! Can you provide a source linking Rebecca as a medical assistant working in a surgical office? Everything available at this time has shown Rebecca was as an ophthalmic technician. TIA

 

[deanna82437]

MyBelle, I agree with everything you have written. The odds were not against him surviving from get go...the paramedics were able to restart circulation within two rounds of medication.
The specialists initially thought he would make it. I believe help was not called when stated, and that was why he did not survive because of a lack of oxygen. You are completely right, it is not ok for a grown adult woman to stand around and do nothing, or do something else instead of calling for help.
C.P.R., no C.P.R. it does not matter. The bottom line is, she told many different stories to many different people, avoided every question about the accident, and acted very suspiciously. In the police car, she stated to X<modsnip>"Dina is going to kill me." Why would she state that if she were just an innocent bystander when the child "fell"? She did not remember how she had found Maxie, and she did not know what happened, but when Nina asked her where the fall happened from, she pointed at the bedroom...the bedroom which only contained hers and Max's fingerprints. When the paramedics arrived, she remembered enough to blame the dog, and to say that Max was not asked to ride his scooter upstairs. How would somebody who was taking a shower at the time of this fatal "fall" and hypothetically was too in shock to give c.p.r., be able to come to a conclusion of how the child ended up in that condition in the two minutes it would have taken for paramedics to arrive?
Doesn't sound right to me.

Thanks for your input Jessica. One question, though. Is the above all your opinion? Or fact? Do you have links/sources for all the above? Please provide, if indeed, those statements are factual. TIA