Discussion Thread #61 ~ the appeal~

[Deleted member 102539]

Thanks for those updates. We all knew this was coming but it doesn't make it any less disappointing does it.
Awful to hear that house arrest actually gives him so many options to leave the house! He will be -a-hoop today regardless of the upcoming Appeal.
I hope he is hounded by the press every time he walks out of the door and the ANC Womens' League sets up an encampment opposite.

Judge Judi - do you know why it's 5 judges not 3? ( I can't remember a lot of details prior to his holiday camp sojourn.)

BTW is anybody else noticing WS pages are taking an age to load? ( Maybe it's just issues my end)

Since Saturday I have problems too.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...arole-in-august-authorities-confirm-1.2241611

The state won its bid to appeal the culpable homicide conviction and will seek a murder conviction when the case is heard in November.

Breaking News CNN today: The state was seeking a murder conviction.

Does CNN knows more like "the state WAS seeking a murder conviction, but had failed"??? :gaah:

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/n...tler-stellen-todesschrei-nach_id_4736321.html

Google translation:

In the investigation into Tanja Gräff investigators have adjusted the death cry in an experiment. The reason: A witness claims to have heard a scream eight years ago, could come from the missing student.
Investigators (female) have imitated a possible death cry of Tanja Gräff early Monday in Trier on the Moselle. They left two police officers, among others, from the crash site of the young woman above a steep cliff shouting aloud like a police spokesman said.
The same weather as in the night of disappearance
The sound was recorded by scientists at the home of a witness who claims to have heard a female scream from the direction in the night of the disappearance of the student. Gräff disappeared without a trace, first eight years ago; until 11 May, the mortal remains of 21-year-old student were discovered in clearing work under the 50 meter high rock.

 

[AJ_DS]

It's not disappointing. It's what the law says given what he was convicted of. I very much hope the media and ANCWL leave him alone though I doubt it. If they truly cared about women's rights they would be spending their time publicising genuine cases of domestic violence rather than choosing cases like this one and the Dewani case where the evidence is unclear. All they do is make themselves look foolish imo.

Why should the media "leave him alone"??

OP chose to be in the media spotlight... he chose to earn a living by being in the limelight... and he thoroughly enjoyed it...

... but now that he's infamous because he shot and killed another human being, he should be allowed to choose the courtesy of anonymity... I think not !!

As for the evidence being unclear...

OP was all too happy to portray and fuel his public image of a hero and a role-model when there was very little evidence he was either.

... so now being portrayed as a domestic abuser and a murderer is only fair to say the least.

 

[cottonweaver]

It's not disappointing. It's what the law says given what he was convicted of. I very much hope the media and ANCWL leave him alone though I doubt it. If they truly cared about women's rights they would be spending their time publicising genuine cases of domestic violence rather than choosing cases like this one and the Dewani case where the evidence is unclear. All they do is make themselves look foolish imo.

I appreciate - it's what the law says based on Masipa's decisions totally hence my saying "we all knew this was coming". So on an absolute level - of course he was always going back home. On a subjective level, based on my sense of right & wrong, it's disappointing that the date has now come when he gets home to the family party etc etc.

SAPS never had a great track record of successful prosecutions. ( No i wasn't serious about ANC ululating outside Arnies door - but it amused me!)

Yep - they certainly look foolish alright. I think the publicising of the "trial of the century" was meant to show the opposite but it was naive.

 

[L2L]

Why should the media "leave him alone"??

OP chose to be in the media spotlight... he chose to earn a living by being in the limelight... and he thoroughly enjoyed it...

... but now that he's infamous because he shot and killed another human being, he should be allowed to choose the courtesy of anonymity... I think not !!

As for the evidence being unclear...

OP was all too happy to portray and fuel his public image of a hero and a role-model when there was very little evidence he was either.

... so now being portrayed as a domestic abuser and a murderer is only fair to say the least.

MY thoughts exactly! And the chances of him going back to prison after November are ...?????

 

[Greater Than]

Steenkamp's parents reportedly wrote a letter to the parole board in protest, calling for accountability.

South African broadcaster eNCA published the letter, which read, in part: "As her family, we do not seek to avenge her death and we do not want Mr. Pistorius to suffer; that will not bring her back to us. However a person found guilty of a crime must be held accountable for their actions.

"Statistics show that our society is under continuous attack from criminals and murderers. Incarceration of 10 months for taking a life is simply not enough. We fear that this will not send out the proper message and serve as the deterrent it should."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/08/africa/south-africa-oscar-pistorius-release-recommendation/

It's really unbelievable that he's getting out at his first opportunity for parole. It's also unbelievable that the victim's parents' wishes were ignored. And if that's not enough, it's unbelievable that the fact that the appeals court will be reviewing this case three months later was not factored into their decision to release him.

 

[GR_Turner]

Why should the media "leave him alone"??

OP chose to be in the media spotlight... he chose to earn a living by being in the limelight... and he thoroughly enjoyed it...

... but now that he's infamous because he shot and killed another human being, he should be allowed to choose the courtesy of anonymity... I think not !!

As for the evidence being unclear...

OP was all too happy to portray and fuel his public image of a hero and a role-model when there was very little evidence he was either.

... so now being portrayed as a domestic abuser and a murderer is only fair to say the least.

Your delight in this says more about you than it does about him.

 

[GR_Turner]

I appreciate - it's what the law says based on Masipa's decisions totally hence my saying "we all knew this was coming". So on an absolute level - of course he was always going back home. On a subjective level, based on my sense of right & wrong, it's disappointing that the date has now come when he gets home to the family party etc etc.

SAPS never had a great track record of successful prosecutions. ( No i wasn't serious about ANC ululating outside Arnies door - but it amused me!)

Yep - they certainly look foolish alright. I think the publicising of the "trial of the century" was meant to show the opposite but it was naive.

I don't think it's subjectively disappointing either. Given the history in SA of people shooting and killing family members by mistake and intruders and walking away basically, he's not got off lightly at all.

 

[AJ_DS]

Your delight in this says more about you than it does about him.

The fact you would infer delight from a detached statement of facts in attempts to denounce and discredit "problematic" posters speaks volumes as to your obvious and ongoing, albeit ineffective, agenda.

... They're getting their money's worth as they're undoubtedly not paying you very much for your services.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://ewn.co.za/2015/06/08/Pistori...torius-has-completed-anger-management-courses

The Correctional Services Department on Monday said it recommended that Oscar Pistorius be released on probation within the next two months because he had completed several courses, including an anger management programme.

 

[KarenUK]

http://ewn.co.za/2015/06/08/Pistori...torius-has-completed-anger-management-courses

The Correctional Services Department on Monday said it recommended that Oscar Pistorius be released on probation within the next two months because he had completed several courses, including an anger management programme.

I wonder what the other courses are..... I could make a few suggestions but it would come accross as facetious and a bit bitter!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-33049312

 

[Trotterly]

The fact you would infer delight from a detached statement of facts in attempts to denounce and discredit "problematic" posters speaks volumes as to your obvious and ongoing, albeit ineffective, agenda.

... They're getting their money's worth as they're undoubtedly not paying you very much for your services.

These are your opinions not facts. And I can tell you as a fact I'm not in the employ of the Pistorius family either.

 

[Jake18]

The fact you would infer delight from a detached statement of facts in attempts to denounce and discredit "problematic" posters speaks volumes as to your obvious and ongoing, albeit ineffective, agenda.

... They're getting their money's worth as they're undoubtedly not paying you very much for your services.

I suspected that too. Odd to just appear and actively start debates when the trial was at the appeal stage.

 

[cottonweaver]

I don't think it's subjectively disappointing either. Given the history in SA of people shooting and killing family members by mistake and intruders and walking away basically, he's not got off lightly at all.

BIB - You can't really argue that since I made my meaning clear when I said....." subjectively..based on my sense of right and wrong" etc.

In the context of mistaken identity of killing the love of his life........ but virtually no-one believes any of that.. apparently not even his old friends and associates, people who knew him well ( ie. not people like me & you)

So that's without even getting into any discussion about the evidence with you.

As for the SA historical context I'm not going to take the time to cite cases/similarities and differences because either way, "two wrongs don't make a right" as the saying goes. Most of the criminal lawyers in SA were very embarrassed by this (ie. the experts, not people like you and me) - none of them said - "well so it goes, that's how we do things here. " They would acknowledge that things need to change.

To be fair to many WSers here ( not me & nor you, I guess), it's arguable some are more familiar with the evidence, have put more time into their analysis* than SAPS or the judge/assessors were!

*Some people enjoy unravelling puzzles - you shouldn't IMO infer that there is something wrong with them because of that.

 

[katydid23]

All I know is that 10 months is a ridiculously SHORT amount of time for his part in this tragedy. JMO

 

[AJ_DS]

These are your opinions not facts. And I can tell you as a fact I'm not in the employ of the Pistorius family either.

I suspect some of us do not share the same definition of the words "fact" and "opinion".

Is is not fact* that OP has been publicly portrayed as a murderer by the media, by the NPA, by the public, by posters, etc... ?

I do understand the need you and some have to twist facts into opinions and vice-versa.

Your phrasing is quite revealing : "I can tell you as a fact I'm not in the employ of the Pistorius family either."

A. The use of the word "fact" to bolster the veracity of your unprovable statement indicates doth protest too much, methinks.

B. The use of the word "either" implies you possess privileged information about another poster, information you wish others to believe as fact.

... Soldier on


* OP does not have to be unanimously portrayed as a murderer by everyone for one to correctly state as fact that he has been portrayed as a murderer by some... even more so if "some" refers to the vast majority.

 

[AJ_DS]

BIB - You can't really argue that since I made my meaning clear when I said....." subjectively..based on my sense of right and wrong" etc.

In the context of mistaken identity of killing the love of his life........ but virtually no-one believes any of that.. apparently not even his old friends and associates, people who knew him well ( ie. not people like me & you)

So that's without even getting into any discussion about the evidence with you.

As for the SA historical context I'm not going to take the time to cite cases/similarities and differences because either way, "two wrongs don't make a right" as the saying goes. Most of the criminal lawyers in SA were very embarrassed by this (ie. the experts, not people like you and me) - none of them said - "well so it goes, that's how we do things here. " They would acknowledge that things need to change.

To be fair to many WSers here ( not me & nor you, I guess), it's arguable some are more familiar with the evidence, have put more time into their analysis* than SAPS or the judge/assessors were!

*Some people enjoy unravelling puzzles - you shouldn't IMO infer that there is something wrong with them because of that.

Well said !!

It is not enough for some to twist facts to serve their purpose, now they are twisting the meaning of personal opinions so as to create disreputable motives.

They refuse to see the forest for the trees nor see the trees for the forest :

- they'll argue you can't reasonably determine the image depicted on a puzzle if a few puzzle pieces are missing.

- they'll also argue if 2 puzzle pieces can mechanically fit together then they must be considered as possibly correct regardless of the dissonance in the image they depict.

... in those circumstances, intelligent and constructive discussion is strenuous, if not impossible.

 

[Trotterly]

I suspect some of us do not share the same definition of the words "fact" and "opinion".

Is is not fact* that OP has been publicly portrayed as a murderer by the media, by the NPA, by the public, by posters, etc... ?

I do understand the need you and some have to twist facts into opinions and vice-versa.

Your phrasing is quite revealing : "I can tell you as a fact I'm not in the employ of the Pistorius family either."

A. The use of the word "fact" to bolster the veracity of your unprovable statement indicates doth protest too much, methinks.

B. The use of the word "either" implies you possess privileged information about another poster, information you wish others to believe as fact.

... Soldier on


* OP does not have to be unanimously portrayed as a murderer by everyone for one to correctly state as fact that he has been portrayed as a murderer by some... even more so if "some" refers to the vast majority.

You claim it as a fact that "OP chose to be in the media spotlight"

Where is the evidence for this?
He may be newsworthy but this does not mean he instigated this.

"... he chose to earn a living by being in the limelight... and he thoroughly enjoyed it..."
Again unsubstantiated opinion. Guesswork based on media stories and gossip no doubt. Where is the evidence?

"... but now that he's infamous because he shot and killed another human being, he should be allowed to choose the courtesy of anonymity... I think not !!"
How can a person whose face is known around the globe choose anonymity? That is ludicrous.

"OP was all too happy to portray and fuel his public image of a hero and a role-model when there was very little evidence he was either."
So little evidence that Nel even mentioned it in court. Twice. :facepalm:

"... so now being portrayed as a domestic abuser and a murderer is only fair to say the least"
Its not "only fair", it's called libel.

 

[AJ_DS]

LOL... you keep making my point for me !

Reply in bold

You claim it as a fact that "OP chose to be in the media spotlight"

Where is the evidence for this?
He may be newsworthy but this does not mean he instigated this.

"... he chose to earn a living by being in the limelight... and he thoroughly enjoyed it..."
Again unsubstantiated opinion. Guesswork based on media stories and gossip no doubt. Where is the evidence?

Is it your contention that OP was forced or otherwise coerced into signing various sponsorship contracts, into participating in TV interviews, etc...

It would be like stating that someone went into politics but never meant to attract nor wished for media attention...laughable

OP just wanted to run fast... he was completely disinterested in fame and sponsorship revenues

"... but now that he's infamous because he shot and killed another human being, he should be allowed to choose the courtesy of anonymity... I think not !!"
How can a person whose face is known around the globe choose anonymity? That is ludicrous.

Is it your contention that all media statements made by his family, the OP and family tweets, the OP website, the "leaked" information regarding witnesses and evidence, etc... all those things were done privately but somehow ended up in the public domain against OP's wishes !!!

"OP was all too happy to portray and fuel his public image of a hero and a role-model when there was very little evidence he was either."
So little evidence that Nel even mentioned it in court. Twice. :facepalm:

LOL... you still are confused with what is "fact" and what is "opinion"... Nel stated as fact that OP was of the opinion that he was a hero and/or that others were of the opinion OP was a hero... that does not make it fact.

Just because it is fact someone has an opinion does not make that opinion a fact !!!

"... so now being portrayed as a domestic abuser and a murderer is only fair to say the least"
Its not "only fair", it's called libel.

Nope... Saying or writing OP is being portrayed as a murderer is neither defamatory nor libellous