Discussion Thread #61 ~ the appeal~

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Yes a few legal eagles think it was CH. My opinion has nothing to do with bribery but everything to do with inequality between White SAs and Black SAs. I am sure you have read of the poor soul who spent 8 years in prison, in a wheelchair, (the same prison that OP is now in I think) waiting for his case to come to trial and he was accused of robbery not murder. OP was given bail even though charged with murder. When sent to prison he was put into the safe prison hospital wing. The other poor chap was in with the rest of the criminals, even though he was crippled, for the whole 8 years. That is what I call preferential treatment for being white and rich.

I don't think Nel proved to be the excellent prosecutor most of us thought he would be. I think wrong decisions were taken along the way. I also think Roux was ingratiating towards the judge. Always good to 'butter up' the judge and get her on your side! He was devious too. How many times was he going to provide evidence in favour of OP which never materialised.

Just like you, I don't think I am mistaken but I take comfort that in the poll that was taken on here 80 per cent thought he was guilty of murder and we would, in normal circumstances and in most countries, be the ones determining his guilt or otherwise.

I have absolutely no doubt he shot in anger, he knew it was Reeva, he is a proven liar with a history of violent scrapes and inappropriate gun use and sooner or later he was going to get into a great deal of trouble.

OP was treated carefully in prison because it would have been embarrassing for the prison authorities if he'd been attacked. But that was their decision. As for bail, yes, poor SA can't afford it and that's a disgrace. But it doesn't mean that OP didn't deserve to get it or got preferential treatment compared with other people with enough money for a lawyer and bail.

The whole 'majority' agrees with my side argument is based on the premise that everyone with an opinion knows all the facts, has taken the time to think about them and is acting responsibly is repeating their ideas. That's self-evidently untrue. You only need to look on social media to see the confusion many have about even basic evidence in this case. So do take comfort if you like, but imo it's no better than asking 100 people who don't know how high mount Everest is and then averaging their answers to get an estimate. It's practically meaningless.

If you are sure it was Reeva screaming, then what's your take on the phones evidence? Is it just major incompetence on the state's part?
 
BIB

Not sure what you mean by "at it again" but I have seen no such statement from the ANCWL. Please post the source.

http://www.iol.co.za/sundayindependent/abused-women-feel-betrayed-by-justice-system-1.1871350

Let's remind ourselves of their position at the bail application stage:
http://mg.co.za/article/2013-02-17-ancwl-demands-oscar-pistorius-is-not-granted-bail

...and after the verdict but before sentencing:
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/news-a...ith-verdict-in-oscar-p?sn=Marketingweb+detail

This last statement doesn't even make sense. They demand he be found guilty of shooting an intruder but maintain that the case is about intimate femicide. They can't have it both ways.

Here's a commentary on what the ANCWL actually do for women in SA, if anyone is interested:
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opin...-what-have-you-done-for-womens-rights-lately/
 
OP was treated carefully in prison because it would have been embarrassing for the prison authorities if he'd been attacked. But that was their decision. As for bail, yes, poor SA can't afford it and that's a disgrace. But it doesn't mean that OP didn't deserve to get it or got preferential treatment compared with other people with enough money for a lawyer and bail.

The whole 'majority' agrees with my side argument is based on the premise that everyone with an opinion knows all the facts, has taken the time to think about them and is acting responsibly is repeating their ideas. That's self-evidently untrue. You only need to look on social media to see the confusion many have about even basic evidence in this case. So do take comfort if you like, but imo it's no better than asking 100 people who don't know how high mount Everest is and then averaging their answers to get an estimate. It's practically meaningless.

If you are sure it was Reeva screaming, then what's your take on the phones evidence? Is it just major incompetence on the state's part?

I cannot believe you wrote that. Condoning preferential treatment because one can pay for it.
 
I cannot believe you wrote that. Condoning preferential treatment because one can pay for it.

I didn't condone it. I just pointed out that OP didn't get any better treatment than anyone else who can pay. This would include you and me if we were accused of a crime in SA too. But the solution is not to bring everyone down to the level of no proper access to justice, is it. It's to improve justice for everyone which is a bigger issue than OP and has nothing really to do with his case in particular.
 
I didn't condone it. I just pointed out that OP didn't get any better treatment than anyone else who can pay. This would include you and me if we were accused of a crime in SA too. But the solution is not to bring everyone down to the level of no proper access to justice, is it. It's to improve justice for everyone which is a bigger issue than OP and has nothing really to do with his case in particular.
....you're wrong, the Pistorious case has everything to do with "no proper access to justice", i prefer the word "poor" as in poor justice, there really should have been a jury for a start......then there's poor policing, poor prosecution, poor judge etc etc, no judicial system is perfect but from what i've seen SA is near the bottom of the pile ....
 
....you're wrong, the Pistorious case has everything to do with "no proper access to justice", i prefer the word "poor" as in poor justice, there really should have been a jury for a start......then there's poor policing, poor prosecution, poor judge etc etc, no judicial system is perfect but from what i've seen SA is near the bottom of the pile ....

So you are now using a different meaning of poor? I think the system in SA is bad because there isn't enough money put into it and the system doesn't take into account economic differences. So poor people can wait years in prison for their trial because they can't afford bail and are poorly represented because they don't have a good lawyer. So I agree with you if that's your point.

But if it's that there should be a jury - well, you know why they don't have juries in SA. The policing was terrible - this we already knew - and having a jury wouldn't make the policing any better. I don't think the judge was as poor as you make out. I think she got it mostly right and I'm not seeing lots of scholarly articles or legal judgments in which the interplay between DE and PPD is properly discussed in relation to this case so it's not as though there is any proper consensus about what exactly the outcome should have been. I was actually rather impressed by their system. A judge giving a proper full judgment allows clarity and openness whereas a jury decision is obscure as they don't give an explanation of their reasoning. It is only the fact that the judge gave a full written judgment that allows you to rubbish it, if you think about it. I think it's a much better system.
 
So you are now using a different meaning of poor? I think the system in SA is bad because there isn't enough money put into it and the system doesn't take into account economic differences. So poor people can wait years in prison for their trial because they can't afford bail and are poorly represented because they don't have a good lawyer. So I agree with you if that's your point.

But if it's that there should be a jury - well, you know why they don't have juries in SA. The policing was terrible - this we already knew - and having a jury wouldn't make the policing any better. I don't think the judge was as poor as you make out. I think she got it mostly right and I'm not seeing lots of scholarly articles or legal judgments in which the interplay between DE and PPD is properly discussed in relation to this case so it's not as though there is any proper consensus about what exactly the outcome should have been. I was actually rather impressed by their system. A judge giving a proper full judgment allows clarity and openness whereas a jury decision is obscure as they don't give an explanation of their reasoning. It is only the fact that the judge gave a full written judgment that allows you to rubbish it, if you think about it. I think it's a much better system.

..."and having a jury woudn't make the policing better"..what is that supposed to mean, what is the relation between a jury democratically elected and the police, i really can't see where your coming from unless it's just to provoke....as for the rest, it's just pure diatribe and i'm sure you don't believe half what you write yourself ....
 
..."and having a jury woudn't make the policing better"..what is that supposed to mean, what is the relation between a jury democratically elected and the police, i really can't see where your coming from unless it's just to provoke....as for the rest, it's just pure diatribe and i'm sure you don't believe half what you write yourself ....

I was just making the point that a jury would have to deal with poor evidence in exactly the same way that the judge had to.

Don't you agree that knowing exactly how a decision has been reached so that it can be accepted or challenged is far better than a simple 'guilty' or 'not guilty'?
 
I was just making the point that a jury would have to deal with poor evidence in exactly the same way that the judge had to.

Don't you agree that knowing exactly how a decision has been reached so that it can be accepted or challenged is far better than a simple 'guilty' or 'not guilty'?

....no, the more there are to decide guilt or not the better, second to that, the jury avoids the interaction between the judge and the prosecution/defense, it's this interaction in the form of comments here and there and the tonality of these comments which can give insight behind the judges thinking, giving the potential for manipulation and/or control, it was obvious to me that Masipa was biased against the prosecution it came out in the way she spoke, this must have been a real boost for the defense....allowing the bucket, the tears and sobbing was out of order, without doubt this was to manipulate the judge even further.....by comparison the court should have been suspended the moment Pistorious starting his act, this action would have calmed him down....no the only way is with a jury, it shoudn't be left to one person to decide guilt and sentence, even more so with a serious case like this....in some way it's as if Masipa has given permission to kill.......
 
....no, the more there are to decide guilt or not the better, second to that, the jury avoids the interaction between the judge and the prosecution/defense, it's this interaction in the form of comments here and there and the tonality of these comments which can give insight behind the judges thinking, giving the potential for manipulation and/or control, it was obvious to me that Masipa was biased against the prosecution it came out in the way she spoke, this must have been a real boost for the defense....allowing the bucket, the tears and sobbing was out of order, without doubt this was to manipulate the judge even further.....by comparison the court should have been suspended the moment Pistorious starting his act, this action would have calmed him down....no the only way is with a jury, it shoudn't be left to one person to decide guilt and sentence, even more so with a serious case like this....in some way it's as if Masipa has given permission to kill.......

All the witnesses who testified to his mental state since the shooting said his distress was genuine, both laypeople and professionals. Where did the state produce any evidence about his mental state?

If a judge gives his or her reasons for the judgment, then there is much less likelihood of any manipulation on either side being successful. In a jury trial, we have no idea at all how the jury treated the evidence, whether they were looking at it properly or going with some gut instinct or worse. I don't see how that can be better for anyone. I don't say that the jury system doesn't have some advantages as there is an intrinsic protection against state abuse that you can lose with a judge only system.

In fact, three people agreed that OP hadn't known it was Reeva, not just the judge. It's ludicrous to say that Masipa has somehow given permission to kill.
 
All the witnesses who testified to his mental state since the shooting said his distress was genuine, both laypeople and professionals. Where did the state produce any evidence about his mental state?

If a judge gives his or her reasons for the judgment, then there is much less likelihood of any manipulation on either side being successful. In a jury trial, we have no idea at all how the jury treated the evidence, whether they were looking at it properly or going with some gut instinct or worse. I don't see how that can be better for anyone. I don't say that the jury system doesn't have some advantages as there is an intrinsic protection against state abuse that you can lose with a judge only system.

In fact, three people agreed that OP hadn't known it was Reeva, not just the judge. It's ludicrous to say that Masipa has somehow given permission to kill.
....."mental state" i didn't mention that ! ....his "distress" in court which went far beyond what any normal court would have found acceptable was an absolute disgrace, it was completely undignified and shoudn't of been allowed, the fact that it continued for so unbearably long cast a shadow of incompetency over the court ....lastly, i didn't say Masipa has given permission to kill, i said "it's as if"...not quite the same....
 
....."mental state" i didn't mention that ! ....his "distress" in court which went far beyond what any normal court would have found acceptable was an absolute disgrace, it was completely undignified and shoudn't of been allowed, the fact that it continued for so unbearably long cast a shadow of incompetency over the court ....lastly, i didn't say Masipa has given permission to kill, i said "it's as if"...not quite the same....

What was a disgrace? That he was in distress, that the state showed no sympathy, that court took short breaks and carried on? That it was all shown on tv for the general public to view and comment on or that people who had never met him felt able to write articles saying it was all an act? I'm really not sure what the court could have done other than what it did. I'd be cautious about assuming it was all an act given his mental health problems.

It still makes no sense to say that it's as if she's somehow given permission.
 
The prosecution case was shot through with this kind of unsubstantiated twaddle. I prefer to stick to hard evidence.

The hard fact Is the defence destroyed crime scene evidence

Man

What happened to quality of discussion here?

Are a fossil and co all gone?
 
The hard fact Is the defence destroyed crime scene evidence

Man

What happened to quality of discussion here?

Are a fossil and co all gone?

Call me old fashioned but I like to stick to the facts from the court rather than the media.
 
The hard fact Is the defence destroyed crime scene evidence

Man

What happened to quality of discussion here?

Are a fossil and co all gone?

And another hard fact is that the state chose to not make that allegation in court. In fact, if the book is right, they made that decision in order to keep their lead police investigator, the one with control of the crime scene (if control is the word) off the stand. What does this say about their case?
 
The hard fact Is the defence destroyed crime scene evidence

Man

What happened to quality of discussion here?

Are a fossil and co all gone?


Mr Jitty, unfortunately, until the Appeal, there is only "chewing the cud" left. Much has been decided one way or the other and people have determined their opinion and will not change. That includes me, of course.

You and Mr Fossil (and many others; Sherbert popped in earlier this week) would add a deal of intellect to the quality of the discussions but you all seem to have chosen not to post to raise the level. Let's face it, there is very little to discuss at this point.
 
Perhaps those who believe the second set of shots killed Reeva (as I do) would like to venture an opinion on what were the first shots? We know, the Defence and Prosecution disagree over the order but whilst the Defence has explained their position, the Prosecution has not.

Those of us who agree the second shots killed Reeva have furnished some opinions but there is no satisfactory answer so far. My opinion is that the four shots have to be correct. Witnesses heard the gap between the first and following three and we know Reeva was hit by three and one entered the toilet cubicle, grazing her back during the ricochet and that her injuries indicate a gap between the first and following shots, giving her time to fall to the ground, yet Masipa seems to throw out all witness statements. We know, on OP's estate, that animals could be heard calling from the Farm Inn enclosure, which is further away from OP's house than the Burger's home. We also know that there were no 2 storey houses between the Burgers and OP at the time of the murder. We therefore know that it was possible that sound could travel that far. There seem to have been no audiometric tests to confirm the range of hearing of any of the witnesses. The tests undertaken a year later were valueless as the plots between the Burgers and Stipps now had 2 storey buildings on them which would had buffered the sounds, though the Stipps did hear something. However, Van der Merwe did hear arguing and there had been no changes to the area between her home and OP's which has to support her argument that she did hear arguing on the night of the murder.
 
Perhaps those who believe the second set of shots killed Reeva (as I do) would like to venture an opinion on what were the first shots? We know, the Defence and Prosecution disagree over the order but whilst the Defence has explained their position, the Prosecution has not.

Those of us who agree the second shots killed Reeva have furnished some opinions but there is no satisfactory answer so far. My opinion is that the four shots have to be correct. Witnesses heard the gap between the first and following three and we know Reeva was hit by three and one entered the toilet cubicle, grazing her back during the ricochet and that her injuries indicate a gap between the first and following shots, giving her time to fall to the ground, yet Masipa seems to throw out all witness statements. We know, on OP's estate, that animals could be heard calling from the Farm Inn enclosure, which is further away from OP's house than the Burger's home. We also know that there were no 2 storey houses between the Burgers and OP at the time of the murder. We therefore know that it was possible that sound could travel that far. There seem to have been no audiometric tests to confirm the range of hearing of any of the witnesses. The tests undertaken a year later were valueless as the plots between the Burgers and Stipps now had 2 storey buildings on them which would had buffered the sounds, though the Stipps did hear something. However, Van der Merwe did hear arguing and there had been no changes to the area between her home and OP's which has to support her argument that she did hear arguing on the night of the murder.

Just to point out that only 1 witness heard 1-3 bangs (Burger, inside and far away), all the others heard either more (5-6, Johnson outside on the balcony) or three bangs only (the Stipps) or heard 4 in quick succession (Mrs VdM). The ballistics were unclear about what happened - you have just taken the opinion of the state ballistics expert and ignored that of the defense.

Still, I like your suggestion for discussion :)
 
Perhaps those who believe the second set of shots killed Reeva (as I do) would like to venture an opinion on what were the first shots? We know, the Defence and Prosecution disagree over the order but whilst the Defence has explained their position, the Prosecution has not.

Those of us who agree the second shots killed Reeva have furnished some opinions but there is no satisfactory answer so far. My opinion is that the four shots have to be correct. Witnesses heard the gap between the first and following three and we know Reeva was hit by three and one entered the toilet cubicle, grazing her back during the ricochet and that her injuries indicate a gap between the first and following shots, giving her time to fall to the ground, yet Masipa seems to throw out all witness statements. We know, on OP's estate, that animals could be heard calling from the Farm Inn enclosure, which is further away from OP's house than the Burger's home. We also know that there were no 2 storey houses between the Burgers and OP at the time of the murder. We therefore know that it was possible that sound could travel that far. There seem to have been no audiometric tests to confirm the range of hearing of any of the witnesses. The tests undertaken a year later were valueless as the plots between the Burgers and Stipps now had 2 storey buildings on them which would had buffered the sounds, though the Stipps did hear something. However, Van der Merwe did hear arguing and there had been no changes to the area between her home and OP's which has to support her argument that she did hear arguing on the night of the murder.

The trouble with this business which I wasted too many of my hours on, is that you inevitably come up against the need to see the phone record exhibits.

We have insight into the security call logs - which we can assume are internally consistent - because they were so heavily discussed. (Exhibit Q?)

The bone of contention is Charl Johnson.

However - as I think Mr Fossil has also noted - Johnson's call times are not based on the same clock. Indeed the implication of the evidence was that Johnson's call time is based only off his own notes - presumably from his iPhone. Nowhere in the evidence does anyone reference any exhibit to support this call time (sloppy IMO) - I would have expected Roux to cross-examine Johnson against the cell phone company records given how crucial this point was to the defence. So I presume no such exhibit exists.

My belief has always been that Pistorius' neighbour's (Nhlegenthwa) were awoken by the only shots sometime before their security call 3:16:36 - and they explicitly did not hear any further shots. IMO this is overwhelming proof that no shots were fired after 3:16:36 and this is explicitly corroborated by Stipp.

When you think about it, in order for Johnson to hear shots after 3.17 - somehow both Nhlegenthwas have to not hear them despite being right next door AND Masipa had to completely invent an explanation for Stipp's evidence.

So the obvious answer is that Johnson timings - based on a different clock - differ somehow - but I cannot resolve this without the info.

But in any event - based on the evidence at the trial which we know about - there is no reason to think the Nhlegenthwas missed any gunshots after 3:16:36 - an illogic that Masipa completely glosses over in her poor "analysis"

What I would have expected Masipa to address is that Stipp, Nhlegenthwas and Johnson cannot all be correct, no matter which version you prefer.

Masipa's idea that everything is fine "because call records" actually begs the question.

She then resorts to altering Stipp's evidence to fit in Johnson while ignoring the fundamental problems this causes with Nhlegenthwas who I 100% believe in.

The much more obvious answer is that Stipp's are the only witness to the whole sequence of events (and with direct line of sight!!). Nhlegenthwas were subsequently awoke by the gunshots (of course they were as they were right next door!) That when awake - Nhlegenthwas did not miss any gunshots (how could they).

Therefore Johnson (further away - and no security call log) is the one we need to be careful of. Especially I don't see how you can use him for timing.
 
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