Discussion Thread #61 ~ the appeal~

[mrjitty]

And another hard fact is that the state chose to not make that allegation in court. In fact, if the book is right, they made that decision in order to keep their lead police investigator, the one with control of the crime scene (if control is the word) off the stand. What does this say about their case?

The State is bound by procedure.

First - the Judge is well aware of what happened with the phone, due to the closed discussions around it.

Second - OP's brother is not an accused at trial. Therefore it is not an allegation that can directly be made against OP

Third - The state cannot prove what material was deleted. So while they can prove the phone was illegally removed, they cannot prove what was deleted. So in such circumstances I can understand why they did not pursue this line of inquiry which would have required calling OP's brother. Remember this was part of a deal to allow the phone into evidence at all.

In simple terms, the state can't fix the damage done when criminals destroy evidence.

However normally the Judge being aware that the defence is involved in crime scene staging and evidence tampering would not be +ve for the defence

Nevertheless, the Judge was well aware of this misconduct on the part of the defence, and the obvious implications.

 

[JudgeJudi]

<Respectfully snipped>

My belief has always been that Pistorius' neighbour's (Nhlegenthwa) were awoken by the only shots sometime before their security call 3:16:36 - and they explicitly did not hear any further shots. IMO this is overwhelming proof that no shots were fired after 3:16:36 and this is explicitly corroborated by Stipp.

But in any event - based on the evidence at the trial which we know about - there is no reason to think the Nhlegenthwas missed any gunshots after 3:16:36 - an illogic that Masipa completely glosses over in her poor "analysis"

She then resorts to altering Stipp's evidence to fit in Johnson while ignoring the fundamental problems this causes with Nhlegenthwas who I 100% believe in.

The much more obvious answer is that Stipp's are the only witness to the whole sequence of events (and with direct line of sight!!). Nhlegenthwas were subsequently awoke by the gunshots (of course they were as they were right next door!) That when awake - Nhlegenthwas did not miss any gunshots (how could they).

mrjitty. Eontle Nhlengethwa only heard a single bang and woke her husband. Presumably this was the head shot as it was heard when the other ear witnesses heard the last set of sounds. She then heard loud crying like a man needing help, then a man yelling for help 3 times, and later still the sound of crying.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I am pleased there is something new up for discussion but I have a problem with the stated number of shots because witnesses would not have been intentionally counting them and their recall may well be flawed. It may have been better to say they heard gunshots but cannot remember exactly how many. Also there would undoubtedly have been echos and they sound very much like the real thing. I have just been reading that the echo from a gunshot can travel twice as far at night compared with a shot made during the day. Did Johnson hear gunshots and echoes when he reported 5-6 shots? Or was he counting both sets of sounds with what has to have been a gap in between. Will a very loud scream have a delayed echo and what would the delay be?? Partly, it seems to be determined by what the original sounds reverberated from, ie a brick wall, rocks, mountains etc.




Certainly the timing can be flawed and that allows witness statements to be called into question.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Just to point out that only 1 witness heard 1-3 bangs (Burger, inside and far away), all the others heard either more (5-6, Johnson outside on the balcony) or three bangs only (the Stipps) or heard 4 in quick succession (Mrs VdM). The ballistics were unclear about what happened - you have just taken the opinion of the state ballistics expert and ignored that of the defense.

Still, I like your suggestion for discussion

Yes I have taken the view of the Prosecution's ballistics expert because I thought the Defence's expert was roundly rubbished.

 

[GR_Turner]

The trouble with this business which I wasted too many of my hours on, is that you inevitably come up against the need to see the phone record exhibits.

We have insight into the security call logs - which we can assume are internally consistent - because they were so heavily discussed. (Exhibit Q?)

The bone of contention is Charl Johnson.

However - as I think Mr Fossil has also noted - Johnson's call times are not based on the same clock. Indeed the implication of the evidence was that Johnson's call time is based only off his own notes - presumably from his iPhone. Nowhere in the evidence does anyone reference any exhibit to support this call time (sloppy IMO) - I would have expected Roux to cross-examine Johnson against the cell phone company records given how crucial this point was to the defence. So I presume no such exhibit exists.

My belief has always been that Pistorius' neighbour's (Nhlegenthwa) were awoken by the only shots sometime before their security call 3:16:36 - and they explicitly did not hear any further shots. IMO this is overwhelming proof that no shots were fired after 3:16:36 and this is explicitly corroborated by Stipp.

When you think about it, in order for Johnson to hear shots after 3.17 - somehow both Nhlegenthwas have to not hear them despite being right next door AND Masipa had to completely invent an explanation for Stipp's evidence.

So the obvious answer is that Johnson timings - based on a different clock - differ somehow - but I cannot resolve this without the info.

But in any event - based on the evidence at the trial which we know about - there is no reason to think the Nhlegenthwas missed any gunshots after 3:16:36 - an illogic that Masipa completely glosses over in her poor "analysis"

What I would have expected Masipa to address is that Stipp, Nhlegenthwas and Johnson cannot all be correct, no matter which version you prefer.

Masipa's idea that everything is fine "because call records" actually begs the question.

She then resorts to altering Stipp's evidence to fit in Johnson while ignoring the fundamental problems this causes with Nhlegenthwas who I 100% believe in.

The much more obvious answer is that Stipp's are the only witness to the whole sequence of events (and with direct line of sight!!). Nhlegenthwas were subsequently awoke by the gunshots (of course they were as they were right next door!) That when awake - Nhlegenthwas did not miss any gunshots (how could they).

Therefore Johnson (further away - and no security call log) is the one we need to be careful of. Especially I don't see how you can use him for timing.

I guess we can use Johnson for timing because the state and defense who must have had full access to all records both did. The state made no argument about Johnson's phone times being wrong despite the contradiction with both Stipp's and the Nhlengethwas' evidence.

Nel made no objection at all when Roux said that Dr Stipp's 10111 call was at 3.17, though it was and still is unclear where this time was from. It's unlikely that Roux would destroy his career by making this up or that Nel would have just sat there and said nothing if he had. If it's true then it casts doubt on Stipp's evidence in relation to the phones and this is what makes his testimony unreliable for timing the second bangs. In fact, you can put the second bangs at either 3.15ish or 3.17 depending on which part of his testimony you take to be correct.

To me it therefore makes no sense to assume that Johnson's phone time is wrong and that we should assume Stipp's evidence is consistent based on an (albeit large) subset of information when the state, defense and court had all the information and all concluded otherwise.

 

[mrjitty]

<Respectfully snipped>



mrjitty. Eontle Nhlengethwa only heard a single bang and woke her husband. Presumably this was the head shot as it was heard when the other ear witnesses heard the last set of sounds. She then heard loud crying like a man needing help, then a man yelling for help 3 times, and later still the sound of crying.

Yes - good point.

So how can the 2nd bangs have come after 3.16?

It makes no sense

 

[mrjitty]

Call me old fashioned but I like to stick to the facts from the court rather than the media.

Call me old fashioned but we know it from the facts introduced into Court.

1. The cell tower records / testimony prove the phone was at the crime scene

2. The phone subsequently turned up in the possession of the defence, with contents wiped and a hard to break password enabled. This required taking the phone to Apple in SF.

Therefore persons associated with the defence tampered with critical crime scene evidence.

 

[mrjitty]

I guess we can use Johnson for timing because the state and defense who must have had full access to all records both did.

I can't really be bothered going into all this again - as it was discussed at length previously.

So I will merely say that when you say "all the records" in reference to Johnson it is not clear that the records are anything more than his own notes.

It is certainly far from clear how timing of Johnsons clock should be reconciled with the security phone log.

What we can say is that Masipa's proposed resolution doesn't actually resolve the conflicts between Stipp, Mr N and Johnson at all.

But without the exhibits - we can't dig deeper on this.

 

[mrjitty]

Perhaps what was much more amusing is that Masipa - as a great stickler for phone records - immediately ignores all of OP's nocturnal data connections - despite witness corroborating evidence, corroborating forensic evidence, and corroborating physical evidence that he was awake before 3am

 

[GR_Turner]

...

The much more obvious answer is that Stipp's are the only witness to the whole sequence of events (and with direct line of sight!!). Nhlegenthwas were subsequently awoke by the gunshots (of course they were as they were right next door!) That when awake - Nhlegenthwas did not miss any gunshots (how could they).

...

Both versions have problems with people not hearing things they should have imo.

Johnson was woken either by the first bangs (though he mightn't have realised it) or by the screaming. He was around 170m away. All 4 close neighbours slept through something that could wake someone 170m away and that must have been as loud as a jumbo jet taking off if Reeva were screaming from within the toilet, as she must have been on the state's version.

The close neighbours on both sides heard very loud male cries after the shots which must have been coming from the bedroom and bathroom in OP's house, but the Stipps heard absolutely nothing. The Stipps were by this point were wide awake, must have been listening intently for further sounds, were in direct line with the open bathroom window and heard everything very clearly up to this point.

Given the loudness of all the sounds as described by both sets of neighbours, this is astonishing deafness on both parts imo if the state's case it true.

 

[LemonMousse]

Seems to me there's a simple choice...either Dr Stipp is a barefaced liar, willing to risk his career and reputation in order to get a man he doesn't know convicted of murder (as Roux suggested) or Johnson's notes/phone were wrong.

We know that nobody - neither the State nor the defence - checked the central time server of Johnson's provider, or consulted actual records. They simply took his word for the time. This is proved during Johnson's questioning. His notes/phone only needed to be a minute out and the whole thing falls into place.

Gunshots at 3.14/15...Stipp calls security at 3.15, Mr Mike at 3.16, Johnson faffs and calls wrong security at this time, then the Van der Merwe's. Everyone who heard anything after these shots reports a male crying. Everyone who heard anything before them heard two voices and a female screaming.

The prosecution dropped the ball here...they should have either gone to get the actual provider records for Johnson's call or highlighted to the court that they didn't have them and therefore were relying on unsubstantiated information. Nel should also not have referred to the 3.17 shots when what he really meant was the 3.17-wrong-clock shots...which would not actually have been 3.17 as the clock was fast.

 

[mrjitty]

Arguing about the accuracy of Pistorious "version" isn't really a good use of time, given how much he demonstrably lied.

I simply reiterate that Mr Fossil's timeline and phone analysis are the most accurate things I have seen on the case - outside of the exhibits which we don't have.

If you want to dedicate time to showing how Fossil is wrong - good luck!

 

[GR_Turner]

Perhaps what was much more amusing is that Masipa - as a great stickler for phone records - immediately ignores all of OP's nocturnal data connections - despite witness corroborating evidence, corroborating forensic evidence, and corroborating physical evidence that he was awake before 3am

The state made nothing of the nocturnal data connections though. They never made any allegations that OP had to be awake for them. The evidence that Reeva may have been awake doesn't prove that OP was also awake. The evidence of 'arguing' would have been much stronger had Mrs VdM heard 2 voices - in particular it's very odd that she only heard a female voice as you'd expect him to be much louder in a fight. And she was the only one to hear this, a bit surprising with the security staff patrolling the surrounding streets the entire time.

 

[GR_Turner]

Arguing about the accuracy of Pistorious "version" isn't really a good use of time, given how much he demonstrably lied.

I simply reiterate that Mr Fossil's timeline and phone analysis are the most accurate things I have seen on the case - outside of the exhibits which we don't have.

If you want to dedicate time to showing how Fossil is wrong - good luck!

Given that some of Mr Fossil's 'records' appear to be based on the contents of a book and that he clearly approaches everything from the perspective of assuming guilt, you are right that there's not much point in trying to engage with his timeline.

 

[GR_Turner]

Perhaps what was much more amusing is that Masipa - as a great stickler for phone records - immediately ignores all of OP's nocturnal data connections - despite witness corroborating evidence, corroborating forensic evidence, and corroborating physical evidence that he was awake before 3am

Deleted as repeated post.

 

[mrjitty]

Seems to me there's a simple choice...either Dr Stipp is a barefaced liar, willing to risk his career and reputation in order to get a man he doesn't know convicted of murder (as Roux suggested) or Johnson's notes/phone were wrong.

We know that nobody - neither the State nor the defence - checked the central time server of Johnson's provider, or consulted actual records. They simply took his word for the time. This is proved during Johnson's questioning. His notes/phone only needed to be a minute out and the whole thing falls into place.

Gunshots at 3.14/15...Stipp calls security at 3.15, Mr Mike at 3.16, Johnson faffs and calls wrong security at this time, then the Van der Merwe's. Everyone who heard anything after these shots reports a male crying. Everyone who heard anything before them heard two voices and a female screaming.

The prosecution dropped the ball here...they should have either gone to get the actual provider records for Johnson's call or highlighted to the court that they didn't have them and therefore were relying on unsubstantiated information. Nel should also not have referred to the 3.17 shots when what he really meant was the 3.17-wrong-clock shots...which would not actually have been 3.17 as the clock was fast.

I agree with everything you wrote here - i think this is exactly what happened.

It also fits Mrs Stipp looking at the clock - a time Masipa has to change by 10mins for no apparent reason :clap:

However I will offer some defence of Nel here.

First there are obvious errors in the police investigation - clearly they just weren't up to a case where technical (i.e. iPhone) aspects were going to be super critical. Also we don't know what records the state tried to get - or whether there are some exhibits not referred to.

Second - I felt Nel had completely demolished the highly improbable version OP offered. It would not have been obvious (except with hindsight) that he needed to demolish the obvious lies even more. He made this point in his closing. The witnesses heard a woman screaming, and she was found dead at the accused's hand. What more does a judge want? I think extra phone records would have made no different to this judge who was prepared to overlook even more glaring problems - like the screams, the damage in the bathroom, the fight, the stomach contents etc,... because call times?

I tend to agree with you about Johnson.

I think if there was an exhibit - then Roux would have mentioned it during X.

So then it turned out to be a blunder to refer to "3.17" shots - which i think Nel meant much more loosely.

However all of this only comes into play because the judge decides to ignore large amounts of circumstantial evidence which makes OP's story highly improbable in order to seize on some peripheral points.

I mean what is more important?

That it was 3.15 or 3.17?

Or that the unchallenged evidence of several witnesses was that they heard a woman screaming?

It involves adopting a highly artificial view of the facts for Rouxs version to make any sense.

 

[LemonMousse]

The state made nothing of the nocturnal data connections though. They never made any allegations that OP had to be awake for them. The evidence that Reeva may have been awake doesn't prove that OP was also awake. The evidence of 'arguing' would have been much stronger had Mrs VdM heard 2 voices - in particular it's very odd that she only heard a female voice as you'd expect him to be much louder in a fight. And she was the only one to hear this, a bit surprising with the security staff patrolling the surrounding streets the entire time.

Have you considered the implications that are raised if that wasn't Reeva's voice?

Presumably you don't think that Mrs VDM imagined the whole thing, or is a liar? She was irritated at being kept awake by the voice and worried about her son's exam the next day.

Whatever happened, SOME woman was speaking in a loud voice in the vicinity and the other party was not heard. So, your objection is not really relevant to anything. And if it was another woman, why has she not come forward? There really cannot have been that many women nearby up at 2 am talking loudly enough to keep someone in another house awake.

There are umpteen reasons why only one half of an argument might be heard...the most obvious being that the arguers were apart somehow, in different rooms or parts of the house. If Reeva had locked OP out of the bedroom and they were arguing through the door, then it would be very easy for Mrs VDM to just hear one side. The3 bedroom window was open, while none of them in the centre of the house were.

Bit silly to conclude that there was no arguing because only one voice was heard. Someone was arguing with someone near Mrs VDM's house that night and it's quite an amazing coincidence that yet another woman ended up being murdered in the same street an hour later.

 

[mrjitty]

Have you considered the implications that are raised if that wasn't Reeva's voice?

Presumably you don't think that Mrs VDM imagined the whole thing, or is a liar? She was irritated at being kept awake by the voice and worried about her son's exam the next day.

Whatever happened, SOME woman was speaking in a loud voice in the vicinity and the other party was not heard. So, your objection is not really relevant to anything. And if it was another woman, why has she not come forward? There really cannot have been that many women nearby up at 2 am talking loudly enough to keep someone in another house awake.

There are umpteen reasons why only one half of an argument might be heard...the most obvious being that the arguers were apart somehow, in different rooms or parts of the house. If Reeva had locked OP out of the bedroom and they were arguing through the door, then it would be very easy for Mrs VDM to just hear one side. The3 bedroom window was open, while none of them in the centre of the house were.

Bit silly to conclude that there was no arguing because only one voice was heard. Someone was arguing with someone near Mrs VDM's house that night and it's quite an amazing coincidence that yet another woman ended up being murdered in the same street an hour later.

Exact.

And even Roux conceded that an argument might have been heard

13:48 Roux concedes that there may have been an argument between Pistorius and Steenkamp, but there are no witnesses to confirm it.

Its obvious from the crime scene photos that OP was not in bed sleeping.

The fans/duvet prove this.

But yet again, circumstantial evidence gets chucked out as not important.

 

[LemonMousse]

Well, I am a big fan of Nel...but this was a mistake, I think. Probably the fault of the police, as you say, but a mistake.

Can't recall exactly, but didn't Johnson himself bring up with Roux whether they'd actually checked the central server to be certain of his times? Roux's response indicated quite clearly that they had not.

But frankly, if we can figure this out, then Masipa and her two not-very-helpful helpers should have done too. Roux's timeline was slick, but a work of pure fiction. I so wish Nel had produced his own.

(To Mr Jitty...sorry forgot to quote).

 

[GR_Turner]

Seems to me there's a simple choice...either Dr Stipp is a barefaced liar, willing to risk his career and reputation in order to get a man he doesn't know convicted of murder (as Roux suggested) or Johnson's notes/phone were wrong.

We know that nobody - neither the State nor the defence - checked the central time server of Johnson's provider, or consulted actual records. They simply took his word for the time. This is proved during Johnson's questioning. His notes/phone only needed to be a minute out and the whole thing falls into place.

Gunshots at 3.14/15...Stipp calls security at 3.15, Mr Mike at 3.16, Johnson faffs and calls wrong security at this time, then the Van der Merwe's. Everyone who heard anything after these shots reports a male crying. Everyone who heard anything before them heard two voices and a female screaming.

The prosecution dropped the ball here...they should have either gone to get the actual provider records for Johnson's call or highlighted to the court that they didn't have them and therefore were relying on unsubstantiated information. Nel should also not have referred to the 3.17 shots when what he really meant was the 3.17-wrong-clock shots...which would not actually have been 3.17 as the clock was fast.

It doesn't all fall into place though. The first shots were never explained in any way by the state but were by the defense. The close neighbours weren't woken by a woman screaming or the first bangs but someone 170m away was? The Stipps directly across from the open bathroom window heard nothing after the second bangs even though the state accepted that OP was crying very loudly in the bathroom.