Discussion Thread #61 ~ the appeal~

[Interested Bystander]

The jeans were discussed here:-

[video=youtube;QxZYtDsMhIE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxZYtDsMhIE[/video]

Jeans being discussed at the beginning of OP’s Testimony for 14th April, Session 1, at roughly 1 minute 10 seconds (1:10).

As yet, I still haven’t found anything about the inside-out jeans that were in the garden.

 

[LemonMousse]

:facepalm: yes, deliberately and persistently obtuse - not very effective when so transparent.

So one could take a range of views on it... laughable, tedious, sheer bewilderment or take your pick ..... or just give up?*

As I posted some time ago.... I can't quite work out the motivation/satisfaction/purpose*.

As for Lemon Mousse - although it's irrelevant - I think she is a he. Perhaps likes that dessert. Which reminds me to go and pick some gooseberries to make a "gooseberry fool". ( Seriously etc. ....)

Sorry...just seen this. Agree it's not relevant, but I'm actually a she.

And I love gooseberry fool even more than lemon mousse...so can you make me some too

 

[LemonMousse]

The jeans were discussed here:-

[video=youtube;QxZYtDsMhIE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxZYtDsMhIE[/video]

Jeans being discussed at the beginning of OP’s Testimony for 14th April, Session 1, at roughly 1 minute 10 seconds (1:10).

As yet, I still haven’t found anything about the inside-out jeans that were in the garden.

They never mentioned the outside jeans...just flashed up a picture during the police photographers evidence. Most peculiar.

 

[soozieqtips]

The reason I ask was that it was widely thought that OP said Reeva was not breathing when first talking about going into the toilet but he in fact said "she was everything" I wasn't asking you to hunt for anything.

BIB - she was everything what? Doesn't make sense.

At the start of the day, Pistorius described his frantic attempts to revive Steenkamp after he found her the toilet cubicle. He said: "I knelt down over Reeva. She was sitting with her weight on top of the toilet bowl.

I checked to see if she was breathing and she wasn't.
"I pulled her weight on to me and I sat there crying for some time. I had her head on my left shoulder and I could feel her blood was running down on me. I could see that her arm was broken. I thought I felt her breathing. She was struggling to breathe."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-trial-forced-photograph-reeva-steenkamp-head

Any ideas on the Stander/ambulance question yet?

 

[Trotterly]

Sounds like you missed huge chunks of the trial. No wonder you keep asking people to provide links! OP said that Dr Stipp appeared "overwhelmed" and "unsure" of what he was doing. This from a killer who thought it was fine and dandy to drag Reeva out of the bathroom and move her downstairs and not bother to get her any medical help at all!! Perhaps he was teed off that Stipp had shown up at all.

By the way, once again, do you have any thoughts as to why OP lied about asking Stander to call an ambulance? Please don't mention OP's emotional state, as this was in his affidavit five days later, which gave him plenty of time to remember if he'd asked Stander to call an ambulance... or to help him lift Reeva. Two quite different things, wouldn't you say?

I did not miss any of the trial. I already pointed out why I was asking for links. Stipp is a radiologist, I don't know how much recent EM experience he had so I wouldn't like to predict how well he would cope.

I can't really answer a question on which you have placed such limits. There really is little point if you have already dismissed his behaviour as all faked. Even Nel was cautious about these parts of his testimony.

 

[Trotterly]

For me the question of most interest in all this is at what point OP decided to kill Reeva

Was it a loss of control of an abuser in his rage?

What makes me think otherwise is he had at least minutes, if not longer to think about this.

Did he torment her? Was he aware of the intruder angle? (a well known prior SA case)

Was this an idea he toyed with before hand?

Those that are of the view that distant screaming not being heard is evidence (like Mike + wife not hearing a woman) would presumably also be of the view that if Mrs Stipp heard no screaming before the shots that Reeva was already locked in the toilet before things had escalated to OP threatening with a gun.

 

[Trotterly]

OK so now we are into theories.....since the very start of the affair i am stuck with the idea that RS went to the WC to read OP's telephone, he realised what she was doing (anger) and wanted her out as quickly (speed) as possible before she found out too much (panic), the gun was used to force her to come out (the one shot), because of the scream he fired another three......that's the way i see it and for the moment no one or nothing has convinced me yet to change my mind.....

Were the bat strikes on your version before or after the shots?

 

[soozieqtips]

I did not miss any of the trial. I already pointed out why I was asking for links. Stipp is a radiologist, I don't know how much recent EM experience he had so I wouldn't like to predict how well he would cope.

I can't really answer a question on which you have placed such limits. There really is little point if you have already dismissed his behaviour as all faked. Even Nel was cautious about these parts of his testimony.

BIB - limits? All I asked was what you thought about OP lying about asking Stander to call an ambulance, when he clearly never did such a thing. It was a very simple question. Your reluctance to express an opinion indicates you can't think of a half decent excuse for his blatant lie, and that's because there isn't one.

 

[Trotterly]

BIB - limits? All I asked was what you thought about OP lying about asking Stander to call an ambulance, when he clearly never did such a thing. It was a very simple question. Your reluctance to express an opinion indicates you can't think of a half decent excuse for his blatant lie, and that's because there isn't one.

No, you said that OP's emotional state could not be considered.

 

[mrjitty]

Re the jeans

The Jeans outside the window were confirmed to be Reeva's by Reeva mum after the trial in an interview

The inside-out jeans in the bedroom were never claimed by the prosecution to be Reevas

So a speculation is - they were actually worn by Pistorious

I think this is why the whole thing about the jeans on top of the duvet and the blue light under X

Nel's implication is that the duvet was already on the floor - known from the fan position/blood

Pistorius then threw the jeans on the duvet

This is why Nel went so hard on this point - only Pistorious can have put the jeans in that position

And they were inside out because he took them off in a huge hurry and didn't realise this fact would be important

Afterall - its just jeans lying on the floor

It was only later - when he had to construct his fan story - that the jeans became a big problem.

 

[Trotterly]

BIB - limits? All I asked was what you thought about OP lying about asking Stander to call an ambulance, when he clearly never did such a thing. It was a very simple question. Your reluctance to express an opinion indicates you can't think of a half decent excuse for his blatant lie, and that's because there isn't one.

No, you said that OP's emotional state could not be considered.

 

[soozieqtips]

No, you said that OP's emotional state could not be considered.

Oh please. He signed his own affidavit. He had five days to get the details right and a team of lawyers to make sure he knew exactly what he was signing. If you want to consider his emotional state five days after he killed Reeva, then maybe you should discount his entire affidavit, and not just the lies it contained.

 

[Trotterly]

BIB - she was everything what? Doesn't make sense.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-trial-forced-photograph-reeva-steenkamp-head

Any ideas on the Stander/ambulance question yet?

Have a look at this:

http://forensictranscription.com.au/what-is-oscar-pistorius-saying/

 

[Trotterly]

Oh please. He signed his own affidavit. He had five days to get the details right and a team of lawyers to make sure he knew exactly what he was signing. If you want to consider his emotional state five days after he killed Reeva, then maybe you should discount his entire affidavit, and not just the lies it contained.

Not five days later - at the time. I repeat that even Nel was cautious about pursuing such a line.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Not wishing to offend in any way but if you were faced with a loved one whose brains you had "accidentally" blown out I'm sure you would do it by the book but I know there are other people who would not. Is it so unlikely that OP could have had his actions influenced by his emotions? Is that even remotely likely to you? Is it even possible in your eyes?

May I answer for my part:

Under the given circumstances: NO! Not in case Oscar! Not suddenly and only for 5 minutes "sadness and grieve". Laughable (if this were not the death/murder of Reeva).

 

[Mr Fossil]

Have a look at this:

http://forensictranscription.com.au/what-is-oscar-pistorius-saying/

I saw this article at the time and can't believe the authors put it out without at the very least checking the rest of the transcript. When court resumes the following morning, OP picks up his EIC from where he enters the toilet:

M'Lady, after I entered the toilet I knelt down over Reeva. She was sitting with her weight on top of the toilet bowl. I checked to see if she was breathing and she was not and I put my arms underneath her shoulders and I pulled her weight onto me and I sat there, crying for a.. for some time. I had her.. I had her head on my left shoulder and I could.. I could feel the blood was running down on me. At a point she… I heard her breathing so I immediately put her weight on top of me and I swivelled around.

He later also repeats this assertion to Nel on p575:

Nel: Now then, when you found her there, what happened?
OP: I sat over her. I crouched down over her, M'Lady and I put my arm underneath her, my left arm underneath her right arm and I checked to see if she was breathing or she had a pulse and then I did not feel that she did, so I just sat. I pulled her onto me. I was more to the… if you look at the toilet bowl on the left, so I pulled her around onto me.
Nel: Yes, and then?
OP: And then I heard her breathing, M'Lady and so I immediately tried to get, to pick her up and get her out of the toilet.

So it is quite clear that the transcript is correct. OP says "she wasn't breathing" not "she was everything", although I agree it can be heard either way.

 

[soozieqtips]

Not five days later - at the time. I repeat that even Nel was cautious about pursuing such a line.

I asked about why you thought he put the ambulance lie in his affidavit. You're going back to his emotional state on the night of the killing? That wasn't what I asked you about. I just wanted to know why you thought he'd lie about something so important in his signed and sworn affidavit.

By the way, I listened to that clip you provided, and I hear "She-was-n't-breath-ing", although you can hear it the other way too if you try. Aren't his spoken words in the actual transcript? I'm sure it would have been corrected if it was wrong.

 

[Mr Fossil]

So who was Stander talking to?

As it wasn't the ambulance, nor security as they were already present, I would suggest it was to his wife, who then also turned up and, according to Stipp, made her classic remark about hoping it didn't get out to the papers.

 

[Trotterly]

I asked about why you thought he put the ambulance lie in his affidavit. You're going back to his emotional state on the night of the killing? That wasn't what I asked you about. I just wanted to know why you thought he'd lie about something so important in his signed and sworn affidavit.

By the way, I listened to that clip you provided, and I hear "She-was-n't-breath-ing", although you can hear it the other way too if you try. Aren't his spoken words in the actual transcript? I'm sure it would have been corrected if it was wrong.

I have not seen the transcript. I don't think it has been made public.

It is interesting that it seems to be possible to hear him say either version.

 

[Trotterly]

I saw this article at the time and can't believe the authors put it out without at the very least checking the rest of the transcript. When court resumes the following morning, OP picks up his EIC from where he enters the toilet:



He later also repeats this assertion to Nel on p575:


So it is quite clear that the transcript is correct. OP says "she wasn't breathing" not "she was everything", although I agree it can be heard either way.

I didn't think it had been made available.

Anyway, not that it's that important but just because he said she wasn't breathing in later testimony doesn't mean he could have said additionally "she was everything" earlier.