Discussion Thread #61 ~ the appeal~

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  • #1,061
...a point to take into consideration is that the bathroom window which is horizontally sliding and apparently with a light behind is completely different to a much smaller vertical sliding window with a blind and no light, once the window has been lifted it slides behind the frame, at night it would be extremely difficult to know whether it was open or not......what is clear about the Stipps evidence is how convinced they were they heard a woman scream...
 
  • #1,062
...a point to take into consideration is that the bathroom window which is horizontally sliding and apparently with a light behind is completely different to a much smaller vertical sliding window with a blind and no light, once the window has been lifted it slides behind the frame, at night it would be extremely difficult to know whether it was open or not......what is clear about the Stipps evidence is how convinced they were they heard a woman scream...

During the trial with the photograph and Mrs Stipp saying that the window was closed and the fact that Roux's (unchallenged) version had it closed told me that it was reasonable to conclude that it could have been closed during the screaming. In fact I would go on to say that in all probability it was closed. There is certainly no evidence to say that it was open at any time.

A photo showed the Stipps had an unobstructed view of the toilet window from their room.

Mrs Stipp testified that when she looked the light was on in the toilet. Now the light she saw may have originated in the bathroom rather than the toilet but she did not seem to be indicating that lack of back lighting played a part in her seeing the window as closed.

I may have missed the evidence as to the type of window. Do you know that it is a sash type window? I have had a close look at a photo of the window from the outside and it looks to me like it could just as well be a hinged opening on the top.

Dixon's photo's of the toilet window shows the toilet window clearly and evenly illuminated from behind. It would be very obvious, as with the bathroom window, if one pane was slid behind the other. The light would then be seen clearly through the open half which would contrast well with the obscured light through two thicknesses of frosted glass.
 
  • #1,063
...a point to take into consideration is that the bathroom window which is horizontally sliding and apparently with a light behind is completely different to a much smaller vertical sliding window with a blind and no light, once the window has been lifted it slides behind the frame, at night it would be extremely difficult to know whether it was open or not......what is clear about the Stipps evidence is how convinced they were they heard a woman scream...

Didn't Mrs Stipp say she saw a light in the toilet too though? It seems unlikely that a person trying to get help would stand back from the window - she would far more likely have been waving out of the window to attract attention and that would have been visible. It's interesting how Mrs Stipp thought it was screaming but said her housekeeper in the same house that night heard a woman crying, not screaming. It doesn't matter how sure any of the witnesses were about what the screaming was if other witnesses heard something different.
 
  • #1,064
...a point to take into consideration is that the bathroom window which is horizontally sliding and apparently with a light behind is completely different to a much smaller vertical sliding window with a blind and no light, once the window has been lifted it slides behind the frame, at night it would be extremely difficult to know whether it was open or not......what is clear about the Stipps evidence is how convinced they were they heard a woman scream...

They were also convinced that they heard two sets of gunshots and that the screams came after the first ones but before the second ones. As only four shots were fired, and we know the door was broken with the cricket bat, it is reasonable to assume not only that one of the sets of gunshot sounds were in fact the sounds of the cricket bat on the door, but also that these bat sounds were likely to be the final set of sounds, - heard after the screaming. (Colonel Vermeulen accepted bat damage done to door after bullets fired)
 
  • #1,065
Trotterly/GR Truner/aftermath.......according to Mr Stipp the toilet light was not on....i think Mrs Stipp has put the bathroom and the toilet in the same place ...
 
  • #1,066
Trotterly/GR Truner/aftermath.......according to Mr Stipp the toilet light was not on....i think Mrs Stipp has put the bathroom and the toilet in the same place ...

The bulb wasn't working in the toilet, if I remember correctly
 
  • #1,067
The bulb wasn't working in the toilet, if I remember correctly

Trotterly/GR Truner/aftermath.......according to Mrs Stipp that wasn't the case ..but then again she could of been mistaken....
 
  • #1,068
Trotterly/GR Turner/aftermath.......according to Mr Stipp the toilet light was not on....i think Mrs Stipp has put the bathroom and the toilet in the same place ...

Mrs Stipp's evidence summarised: http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-03-24-pistorius-trial-week-four-day-one/#.VZ-tgPlViko

I've read this elsewhere as well so I think it's correct. I don't have the time to search through YT right now. He said that there was no or only a bit of light in the toilet (I think) and she said there was light in the bathroom and toilet and that it was only a bit less light in the toilet than in the bathroom.
 
  • #1,069
Trotterly/GR Truner/aftermath.......according to Mrs Stipp that wasn't the case ..but then again she could of been mistaken....
Dixon confirmed the light in the toilet wasn't working and the prosecution didn't challenge him on it.
 
  • #1,070
Mrs Stipp's evidence summarised: http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-03-24-pistorius-trial-week-four-day-one/#.VZ-tgPlViko

I've read this elsewhere as well so I think it's correct. I don't have the time to search through YT right now. He said that there was no or only a bit of light in the toilet (I think) and she said there was light in the bathroom and toilet and that it was only a bit less light in the toilet than in the bathroom.
Trotterly/GR Turner/aftermath.......and the conclusion is ? ..... seeing that witnesses can't decide if a light is on or off or not working etc etc, what chance is there for the toilet window.....
 
  • #1,071
Trotterly/GR Turner/aftermath.......and the conclusion is ? ..... seeing that witnesses can't decide if a light is on or off or not working etc what chance is there for the toilet window.....

Unless Dixon is a liar or Pistorius thought to break the toilet light, it seems pretty certain the toilet light wasn't working. That's not to say some light couldn't have got into the toilet cubicle though.- it depends when in the whole sequence of events the Stipps actually noticed the lighting.

So are you suggesting either that Pistorius would have leant over Steenkamp's body to close the window before touching her, or that he moved her, washed his hands, then went back into the toilet to close the window? There is no evidence to support either of these options...
 
  • #1,072
Unless Dixon is a liar or Pistorius thought to break the toilet light, it seems pretty certain the toilet light wasn't working. That's not to say some light couldn't have got into the toilet cubicle though.- it depends when in the whole sequence of events the Stipps actually noticed the lighting.

So are you suggesting either that Pistorius would have leant over Steenkamp's body to close the window before touching her, or that he moved her, washed his hands, then went back into the toilet to close the window? There is no evidence to support either of these options...

Trotterly/GR Turner/aftermath.......there is no evidence to support anything apart from the screams.....for all we know she could of simply held the window open .....
 
  • #1,073
Trotterly/GR Turner/aftermath.......there is no evidence to support anything apart from the screams.....for all we know she could of simply held the window open .....

There's just no evidence to say the window was open and there is some that it was probably closed. That's all. We also have evidence of 2 sets of gunshots if we are to believe what the witnesses thought they heard must be true.
 
  • #1,074
Trotterly/GR Turner/aftermath.......there is no evidence to support anything apart from the screams.....for all we know she could of simply held the window open .....

In which case the ballistic reports would be wrong as they suggest she was close to and facing the door...
 
  • #1,075
In which case the ballistic reports would be wrong as they suggest she was close to and facing the door...

Trotterly/GR Turner/aftermath.......very true, but human beings being what they are don't often stay in the same position....
 
  • #1,076
There's just no evidence to say the window was open and there is some that it was probably closed. That's all. We also have evidence of 2 sets of gunshots if we are to believe what the witnesses thought they heard must be true.
Trotterly/GR Turner/aftermath.......disagree, the fact that screams were heard so far away indicates to me the window was open.......i thought you proved this with your scream test..... That's all.
 
  • #1,077
Before I reply can I ask if you carefully followed the cross examination of Mrs Burger?

The reason I ask is because it is necessary to see how Burger's conclusions were made.

Based only on what she heard Burger was convinced it was a home invasion and she said that she hoped that the woman had not had to witness the man being murdered.

She had no fresh information until she was on the phone that morning with her husband - she said:

"He had told me that at the office he'd just heard that OP is on the news and he thought that there was an intruder and he shot his girlfriend"

Based only on this extra information she said to him:

"It cannot be because it's not what we heard"

But the only extra information was that OP had shot Reeva. It is not possible at all to say from what she knew at this point that OP murdered Reeva. She did not know there was not an intruder at this point. No one had said it, not even OP at that point.

It is just as likely from only the facts she had at the time that an intruder had broken in, threatened them both causing Reeva to scream and them both to cry for help, then for OP to have accidentally shot Reeva in a struggle with the intruder or because she was being attacked and he shot her instead of the intruder. In fact any number of possible scenarios.

Yet at that stage Burger decided that it cannot be.

From that point on she had clearly already made up her mind and went to extraordinary lengths to maintain that view. What she did consequently was driven by that view and not by what she had actually heard.

I don't doubt her sincerity or her truthfulness only her interpretation

I think it was already clear from the morning news reports that there was no actual intruder and this was being discussed at Johnson's office the next morning. Everyone was still giving him the benefit of the doubt at that point and most news reports were saying that OP mistakenly "thought" there was an intruder inside his house and shot his girlfriend. Even OP admitted to the Standers and everyone else who arrived on the scene that he had mistaken her for an intruder. He never said I think there must have been intruders and they got away before I could shoot them, and I accidentally shot Reeva instead. Wonder where those intruders got off to? Please, we better go look for them, they can't be far.

It's quite clear to me-- Michelle Burger and her husband were confident that what they heard must have been Reeva's blood curdling screams before the four shots were fired, and consequently, upon learning the next morning that there was no actual intruder and they were mistaken in thinking what they heard was a home invasion, then they obviously had to conclude that Oscar would have also heard Reeva screaming before he shot her. So yeah, they knew Oscar was lying and felt obligated to contact the police and give their statements.

Despite the smarmy badgering from Roux, Michelle Burger was an excellent witness and there is no reason to question her testimony about what she did not hear while sleeping. She obviously can only testify to what she did actually hear- she was awakened to sounds of a petrified woman screaming for her life and frantically yelling for help, before the blood-curdling screams climaxed just as four shots were fired "Bang (interval), Bang, Bang, Bang". She testified to then hearing a man yelling "help, help, help" three times, but in a flatter affect than the "angst"-ridden cries of the woman.

This question only matters if you are trying to position all of the cricket bat strikes AFTER the gunshots and Oscar's cries for help. I believe Oscar chased Reeva into the bathroom with the cricket bat, yelling "Get the f-- out of my house!" and she locked herself in the toilet for safety, he proceeds to bash against the door unsuccessfully, which pushes him over the edge, so he goes back to the bedside and retrieves his pistol, returns down the passageway and being the well -trained marksman that he is, he knows to pause at the corner of the bathroom wall and fire from a protected location to avoid ricochets. After firing four black talon type rounds into the tiny cubicle and hearing silence from the person inside the toilet, Oscar then realizes he has a situation on his hands. His mind quickly thinks he better reframe the scenario and he goes to his bedroom balcony and shouts for help. He then returns to the bathroom and picks up the bat again and pries out a panel to access the key and open the toilet door. He sits with the dying Reeva for an unknown period of time before calling a friend to come help him carry her out of the bathroom. You know how it goes from here.
 
  • #1,078
Trotterly/GR Turner/aftermath.......very true, but human beings being what they are don't often stay in the same position....

Right- but a split second leap from window to door seems unlikely especially if it then has to be followed by Pistorius having the foresight to think of closing the window before touching her/or washing his hands then closing window after moving her, on the idea that he could pass off any screams as his own.

Plus, given that witnesses have agreed that the bathroom window was open, why was there was no report of an aggressive male voice prior to the noise of gunfire? With a bigger open window, wouldn't his noises be easier to hear than someone in the toilet cubicle? Are we also to believe that a man apparently well known for shouty strops (used by some as an indication of his hot temper) would revert against type here, and shoot his girlfriend with no angry loud build up, choosing instead to call for help before firing his gun?

Human beings being what they are do often make stupid mistakes
 
  • #1,079
Trotterly/GR Turner/aftermath.......disagree, the fact that screams were heard so far away indicates to me the window was open.......i thought you proved this with your scream test..... That's all.

Yes- the bathroom window was open so Pistorius’s screams could be heard from a distance.

I didn't do any scream tests??
But perhaps the prosecution should have.
 
  • #1,080
Right- but a split second leap from window to door seems unlikely especially if it then has to be followed by Pistorius having the foresight to think of closing the window before touching her/or washing his hands then closing window after moving her, on the idea that he could pass off any screams as his own.

Plus, given that witnesses have agreed that the bathroom window was open, why was there was no report of an aggressive male voice prior to the noise of gunfire? With a bigger open window, wouldn't his noises be easier to hear than someone in the toilet cubicle? Are we also to believe that a man apparently well known for shouty strops (used by some as an indication of his hot temper) would revert against type here, and shoot his girlfriend with no angry loud build up, choosing instead to call for help before firing his gun?

Human beings being what they are do often make stupid mistakes

...but there was a build up...!
 
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