Discussion Thread #61 ~ the appeal~

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  • #1,081
Trotterly/GR Truner/aftermath.......according to Mr Stipp the toilet light was not on....i think Mrs Stipp has put the bathroom and the toilet in the same place ...

You are correct Mr Stipp did say the toilet light was not on. He did however not at any point say that there was no light in the toilet.In fact he said the light was more to the right. In other words there was some light in the toilet window. This caused a lot of confusion at the time as it seemed that his evidence clashed with his wife's. It did not. She said she saw a light on in the toilet. She could of course have not known this for sure and only described seeing more light than her husband. It really depends on your interpretation of light through frosted glass.

Oldwedge did go to enormous lengths to ensure Mrs Stipp was referring to the correct window, showing her a photo with an arrow to the bathroom window to distinguish it. I don't think she misunderstood but could have mis-remembered it as you suggest. The Stipps light evidence does clash with Mike's evidence about his house lights so the lights and when they were seen in the state described is in doubt.
 
  • #1,082
  • #1,083
Trotterly/GR Turner/aftermath.......disagree, the fact that screams were heard so far away indicates to me the window was open.......i thought you proved this with your scream test..... That's all.

I didn't prove anything with the scream tests. They just convinced me (and you as well it seems) that the only way she could have been heard so clearly at 177m was if she was near the open toilet window or she was not in the toilet at the time or it was OP screaming.

You see to be trying to manufacture evidence (toilet window open) based on other conclusions rather than letting the evidence (window closed) guide your thinking. Your logic only works if you begin knowing OP is guilty of murder.
 
  • #1,084
I think it was already clear from the morning news reports that there was no actual intruder and this was being discussed at Johnson's office the next morning. Everyone was still giving him the benefit of the doubt at that point and most news reports were saying that OP mistakenly "thought" there was an intruder inside his house and shot his girlfriend. Even OP admitted to the Standers and everyone else who arrived on the scene that he had mistaken her for an intruder. He never said I think there must have been intruders and they got away before I could shoot them, and I accidentally shot Reeva instead. Wonder where those intruders got off to? Please, we better go look for them, they can't be far.

It's quite clear to me-- Michelle Burger and her husband were confident that what they heard must have been Reeva's blood curdling screams before the four shots were fired, and consequently, upon learning the next morning that there was no actual intruder and they were mistaken in thinking what they heard was a home invasion, then they obviously had to conclude that Oscar would have also heard Reeva screaming before he shot her. So yeah, they knew Oscar was lying and felt obligated to contact the police and give their statements.

Despite the smarmy badgering from Roux, Michelle Burger was an excellent witness and there is no reason to question her testimony about what she did not hear while sleeping. She obviously can only testify to what she did actually hear- she was awakened to sounds of a petrified woman screaming for her life and frantically yelling for help, before the blood-curdling screams climaxed just as four shots were fired "Bang (interval), Bang, Bang, Bang". She testified to then hearing a man yelling "help, help, help" three times, but in a flatter affect than the "angst"-ridden cries of the woman.

This question only matters if you are trying to position all of the cricket bat strikes AFTER the gunshots and Oscar's cries for help. I believe Oscar chased Reeva into the bathroom with the cricket bat, yelling "Get the f-- out of my house!" and she locked herself in the toilet for safety, he proceeds to bash against the door unsuccessfully, which pushes him over the edge, so he goes back to the bedside and retrieves his pistol, returns down the passageway and being the well -trained marksman that he is, he knows to pause at the corner of the bathroom wall and fire from a protected location to avoid ricochets. After firing four black talon type rounds into the tiny cubicle and hearing silence from the person inside the toilet, Oscar then realizes he has a situation on his hands. His mind quickly thinks he better reframe the scenario and he goes to his bedroom balcony and shouts for help. He then returns to the bathroom and picks up the bat again and pries out a panel to access the key and open the toilet door. He sits with the dying Reeva for an unknown period of time before calling a friend to come help him carry her out of the bathroom. You know how it goes from here.

I appreciate the extensive reply but the BIB is the important part for me.

When her husband told her that OP thought there was an intruder that is all he told her

This is very important because what Burger did with this information goes right to her bias. Johnson had not see the news himself he had heard in his office that OP thought there was an intruder and that he shot Reeva. Not that there actually was not an intruder. Yes of course they would have found that out later on but at that point in time Burger did not know.

That was why Roux kept hammering on about it. We know that this is the case because Nel did not challenge it in any way and Burger never said that she heard there was not an intruder at that time.
 
  • #1,085
?? What was heard prior to the 'female ' screams?

...i know you're "new" here but surely you must have seen some reference to a dispute having been heard ....
 
  • #1,086
I didn't prove anything with the scream tests. They just convinced me (and you as well it seems) that the only way she could have been heard so clearly at 177m was if she was near the open toilet window

....you've just done it again, your test reinforces the open toilet window theory....thanks...
 
  • #1,087
...i know you're "new" here but surely you must have seen some reference to a dispute having been heard ....

I am "new" here, yes- but not "new" to following the case. As far as I have read/seen, there was no report of angry loud male voice prior to the shooting. If the window to the bathroom was open, wouldn't any male aggressive shouting prior to firing the gun have been heard by the same people hearing the apparently female screams? And wouldn't a loud angry verbal outburst be truer to type (based on what has been widely reported about his temper), than a quiet firing? So no- no clear build up of male hostility/anger/aggression/ immediately prior to the shooting has been established. -unless you mean the "get the f* out of my house' outburst?
 
  • #1,088
....you've just done it again, your test reinforces the open toilet window theory....thanks...

Yes I think it supports that the only way those screams could have had a chance of being heard and interpreted so clearly is if the toilet window was open. But there was no evidence it was open and all the evidence points to it being closed so the theory is going to count for nothing.
 
  • #1,089
I am "new" here, yes- but not "new" to following the case. As far as I have read/seen, there was no report of angry loud male voice prior to the shooting. If the window to the bathroom was open, wouldn't any male aggressive shouting prior to firing the gun have been heard by the same people hearing the apparently female screams? And wouldn't a loud angry verbal outburst be truer to type (based on what has been widely reported about his temper), than a quiet firing? So no- no clear build up of male hostility/anger/aggression/ immediately prior to the shooting has been established.

It was interesting when Roux objected to Nel talking of an argument (voice heard by EVDM)
He challenged Nel to produce evidence of such an argument. He of course could not mention what was heard by EVDM and had to fall back on how he would build his case to indicate an argument with screams etc. He knew he had no proof of that argument.
 
  • #1,090
Yes I think it supports that the only way those screams could have had a chance of being heard and interpreted so clearly is if the toilet window was open. But there was no evidence it was open and all the evidence points to it being closed so the theory is going to count for nothing.
...you've gone and tangled yourself up here i'm afraid...the screams were heard so going by your little sound experimentation the window had to be open and also knowing that if one is going to scream at all it would be far more helpful with an open window......oh yes, there may well be a possibility that OP closed the window afterwards so as to avoid any confusion with his alibi, that merits consideration...
 
  • #1,091
...you've gone and tangled yourself up here i'm afraid...the screams were heard so going by your little sound experimentation the window had to be open and also knowing that if one is going to scream at all it would be far more helpful with an open window....that's all.

It certainly would be more helpful. Even more helpful if you could stand near to that open window to scream for help, instead of standing close to the door.
 
  • #1,092
I appreciate the extensive reply but the BIB is the important part for me.

When her husband told her that OP thought there was an intruder that is all he told her

This is very important because what Burger did with this information goes right to her bias. Johnson had not see the news himself he had heard in his office that OP thought there was an intruder and that he shot Reeva. Not that there actually was not an intruder. Yes of course they would have found that out later on but at that point in time Burger did not know.

That was why Roux kept hammering on about it. We know that this is the case because Nel did not challenge it in any way and Burger never said that she heard there was not an intruder at that time.

Roux hammered on about a lot of things, including an outright misrepresention of Stipp's testimony in his cross with Burger, until Nel called him out on it.

Everyone knew there was no actual intruder-- as mentioned above, Oscar himself immediately told everyone that he had mistaken Reeva for an intruder. This was widely reported the next morning, and what difference does it make whether Johnson's coworkers told him about it or he heard it on the news himself? They were all reacting to the same information as reported by none other than Oscar himself.

What else could it mean when they say he "thought" there was an intruder? It doesn't suggest that there still could have been one-- and they should still stay tuned for late-breaking details from the crime scene. No, the obvious implication was that Oscar mistakenly thought there was an intruder, and as reported, only realized this after discovering it was Reeva in the toilet. You would be wildly fantasizing to think there might have been an actual intruder.

Talk about reaching...
 
  • #1,093
It certainly would be more helpful. Even more helpful if you could stand near to that open window to scream for help, instead of standing close to the door.
...i agree, maybe a little sound experimentation again, this time with the window open, at night and facing away ? .......i'll have to ask our local sound expert on here....
 
  • #1,094
Roux hammered on about a lot of things, including an outright misrepresention of Stipp's testimony in his cross with Burger, until Nel called him out on it.

Everyone knew there was no actual intruder-- as mentioned above, Oscar himself immediately told everyone that he had mistaken Reeva for an intruder. This was widely reported the next morning, and what difference does it make whether Johnson's coworkers told him about it or he heard it on the news himself? They were all reacting to the same information as reported by none other than Oscar himself.

What else could it mean when they say he "thought" there was an intruder? It doesn't suggest that there still could have been one-- and they should still stay tuned for late-breaking details from the crime scene. No, the obvious implication was that Oscar mistakenly thought there was an intruder, and as reported, only realized this after discovering it was Reeva in the toilet. You would be wildly fantasizing to think there might have been an actual intruder.

Talk about reaching...

Others may have known but Burger did not. She only knew that "he thought there was an intruder and then he shot his girlfriend". That's the actual evidence that was not disputed.

That is why I asked if you had followed Burger's cross examination carefully.
 
  • #1,095
...i agree, maybe a little sound experimentation again, this time with the window open, at night and facing away ? .......i'll have to ask our local sound expert on here....

You could always look at the testimony of the prosecution's sound expert...?
 
  • #1,096
You could always look at the testimony of the prosecution's sound expert...?
....i get the feeling of "deja vu" when you write, strange that.....otherwise for looking at the prosecution's sound expert my reply to you is...so can you ?
 
  • #1,097
....i get the feeling of "deja vu" when you write, strange that.....otherwise for looking at the prosecution's sound expert my reply to you is...so can you ?

Don't be coy, tell us all what you mean.
 
  • #1,098
....i get the feeling of "deja vu" when you write, strange that.....otherwise for looking at the prosecution's sound expert my reply to you is...so can you ?

It's nice that you feel things when I write, not strange.

I can't seem to find a prosecution sound expert. Perhaps they didn't feel the need for one as they accepted that the window was closed?

Wouldn't Pistorius have been heard if he was shouting/screaming/crying, due to the bathroom window being open? Or do you think he quickly opened that one and closed the toilet one?
 
  • #1,099
It's nice that you feel things when I write, not strange.

I can't seem to find a prosecution sound expert. Perhaps they didn't feel the need for one as they accepted that the window was closed?

Wouldn't Pistorius have been heard if he was shouting/screaming/crying, due to the bathroom window being open? Or do you think he quickly opened that one and closed the toilet one?

The back of that house must have been like a cuckoo clock shop lol.
 
  • #1,100
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