Discussion Thread #61 ~ the appeal~

[Colin de France]

What were the first bangs before the scream and what time did the final bangs happen though?

...what are you trying to say, it's a lot easier if you explain instead of asking questions .....!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

What were the first bangs before the scream and what time did the final bangs happen though?

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx...=file,xlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AAwAEdcqEAjjPU4

 

[lithgow1]

What were the first bangs before the scream and what time did the final bangs happen though?

I will leave a response to the original poster but doesn`t it strike you as at all odd, not the littlest bit, that according to Pistorius` version Reeva Steenkamp made not a sound during the entire incident after the (supposed) `Can`t you sleep?`. Not a word when he said to get down and call the police, no responses when he was making his way down the hallway screaming, not a peep when he was standing a couple of metres away from her outside the toilet door, not a sound when she was shot in the hip? According to him all this took place without one single sound from her. Believe that she remained silent throughout (which his version relies on) but I don't in the least. I assume you will regurgitate his claim that she remained silent out of fear but since he`s a proven liar IMO this is just more of his BS.

 

[GR_Turner]

BIB - shame then that Roux didn't produce the evidence of OP screaming like a woman (like he promised). Obviously his "evidence" proved that OP didn't scream like a woman, otherwise he'd have produced it - and he didn't.

This is such a silly argument (sorry). Just because Roux promised something he didn't deliver is no reason to ignore all the other evidence. I honestly can't see how a tape of OP crying out would have proved anything. You would all have quite rightly said that the conditions weren't the same and so it can be ignored. However we actually have something better - witnesses who describe OP's cries as female sounding cries and female crying vs screaming at the same time. This shows not that he screams like a woman (as a general rule) but that on that night his cries were heard as female by one witness and that other witnesses heard screaming at the same time as one heard crying. This is better than a tape.

 

[GR_Turner]

No victim would NOT scream, I'm convinced. Mortal agony is the worst that can happen to a person other than the death itself, I would think.

If the defense is right she wouldn't have been expecting to be shot and Mrs VdM said they were shots one after the other with no pause. So I don't think there's any reason to think she would have screamed on being shot. Have you never had an accident and only realised a few seconds later that you are injured?

 

[GR_Turner]

This kind of speculation is totally useless.

Reeva, as four witnesses all testified under oath, was already screaming in mortal fear BEFORE AND DURING the final shots. She is screaming in fear, not pain. Who is to say if she were in mid-scream at the time of the final head shot, that this scream could not have been heard simultaneously with the head shot and faded away immediately afterward? All Saayman said was that she would have taken no more than a few breaths after the head shot.

What do you think Mrs VdM's evidence about hearing female crying vs OP crying demonstrated? Or that Mrs Stipp's housekeeper heard female crying at the same time as the other witnesses heard female screaming? Do you think they are lying?

 

[GR_Turner]

And let`s not forget the video of the events which never materialised, or the social worker woman who was brought in to testify that he was really really upset and wasn`t acting, or the visibility test in OP`s bedroom performed by a middle aged man who used `my eyes` as his measuring instrument, or the photographic evidence that used a shorter person than OP. I guess when you rely on evidence so much you will accept anything, as long as it is said within the confines of a courthouse and favours the defence. Pathologist evidence that RS would have screamed, even involuntarily, when her hip was shot to pieces, along with ballistics evidence that the hip shot came first? Nah, not so much.

BIB lol. Ok let's see we can agree about some of the evidence. Do you think Mrs VdM heard all the 4 shots one after the other as she said ie without a pause?

 

[lithgow1]

BIB lol. Ok let's see we can agree about some of the evidence. Do you think Mrs VdM heard all the 4 shots one after the other as she said ie without a pause?

To be honest I`m not familiar enough with all the timeline evidence and debates to answer that one but if that is what she said ... I have no reason to doubt her. Is she the one who heard OP sobbing and thought it was a woman? If so, I would like to suggest that there is quite a difference between sobbing and screaming and that just because he was mistaken for a woman while sobbing doesn`t mean that the people who heard a woman `screaming' were actually hearing Pistorius. I think it was RS they heard.

Now it is my turn. Do you think that Roger Dixon`s assertion as to the darkness of OP`s bedroom, essentially made on the basis of closing the blinds and having a look around, is a valid scientific test that should be accepted in a court of law during a trial for murder in which much of the defendant's case rested on the darkness of said bedroom?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

If the defense is right she wouldn't have been expecting to be shot and Mrs VdM said they were shots one after the other with no pause. So I don't think there's any reason to think she would have screamed on being shot. Have you never had an accident and only realised a few seconds later that you are injured?

Never ever I did have an "accident" where I before had an intensive fight for about 1 hour, being chasen through a two-storey home, being battered with a cricket bat, being yelled at me with threats, being forced into a little toilet cubicle. IF, then I would have known that I were in greatest danger. And I had heard the clicking of the gun, because I had learned before, my boyfriend/this person out of the toilet cubicle might be a devil and capable of anything. I had known where his gun is located and that he is now in this second just bringing his favorite toy over from bedroom to bathroom.

Mention: Missing is the word "perhaps" - please insert, where it is necessary!

IF in a storm a large branch from above falls on my head, I of course don't know that in advance, and also I wouldn't scream before the branch falls.
These two sudden "accidents" are not comparable.

 

[GR_Turner]

To be honest I`m not familiar enough with all the timeline evidence and debates to answer that one but if that is what she said ... I have no reason to doubt her. Is she the one who heard OP sobbing and thought it was a woman? If so, I would like to suggest that there is quite a difference between sobbing and screaming and that just because he was mistaken for a woman while sobbing doesn`t mean that the people who heard a woman `screaming' were actually hearing Pistorius. I think it was RS they heard.

Now it is my turn. Do you think that Roger Dixon`s assertion as to the darkness of OP`s bedroom, essentially made on the basis of closing the blinds and having a look around, is a valid scientific test that should be accepted in a court of law during a trial for murder in which much of the defendant's case rested on the darkness of said bedroom?

If you aren't familiar with the evidence then on what basis have you decided that he's guilty? Yes, she did say that and she's the only witness we can be sure heard the actual shots whereas it's quite likely that Mrs Burger heard the bats and at any event the sounds she heard were heard as 3 bangs by the Stipps (and their housekeeper in her affadavit) and as a volley or about 5 or 6 shots by her husband. None of them heard 1-3 bangs and you'd think at least one of them would have identified such a specific combination of sounds.

Yes there is a difference between sobbing and screaming but it doesn't matter here. He sounded like a woman crying at some point at least. Female crying is what Mrs VdM said she heard. Mrs Stipp's housekeeper heard female crying at the same time as the Stipps heard female screaming so not everyone heard a woman screaming for her life. The housekeeper's description of the crying as being like that of a baby and then of a woman sounds very similar to the close neighbour's demonstration of what they heard. The close neighbours made perfectly clear that they were not referring to sobbing when they said they heard crying - it sounded more like wailing from the sounds the close neighbours made. It really isn't too much of a leap to see that it's possible they all heard the same thing but just interpreted it differently because it sounded different in different places.

Re Dixon - why not? Do you need a light meter to tell you it's dark at night or do you rely on your eyes? And when did the State demonstrate what the light level was in the room?

 

[Colin de France]

If the defense is right she wouldn't have been expecting to be shot and Mrs VdM said they were shots one after the other with no pause. So I don't think there's any reason to think she would have screamed on being shot. Have you never had an accident and only realised a few seconds later that you are injured?

.....for a start the defense is wrong and secondly i find your post more than distasteful.....you show a complete lack of respect for the murder victim......what do you think she went ran into the toilet for ? ....what do you think she screamed for in the middle of the night.....you're on a losing battle if you haven't already lost...

 

[Deleted member 102539]

What do you think Mrs VdM's evidence about hearing female crying vs OP crying demonstrated? Or that Mrs Stipp's housekeeper heard female crying at the same time as the other witnesses heard female screaming? Do you think they are lying?

I would say: everybody has a different vocabulary and makes more or less an effort to describe something (trial or not).
Btw: During trial from time to time it was a problem with Africaans and English and bad translation or well translation. Therefore I think, we need an extra column on the "witness table" including the data for each language/translation or not/translation bad/translation well, haha. Mr. Fossil?

 

[GR_Turner]

Never ever I did have an "accident" where I before had an intensive fight for about 1 hour, being chasen through a two-storey home, being battered with a cricket bat, being yelled at me with threats, being forced into a little toilet cubicle. IF, then I would have known that I were in greatest danger. And I had heard the clicking of the gun, because I had learned before, my boyfriend/this person out of the toilet cubicle might be a devil and capable of anything. I had known where his gun is located and that he is now in this second just bringing his favorite toy over from bedroom to bathroom.

Mention: Missing is the word "perhaps" - please insert, where it is necessary!

IF in a storm a large branch from above falls on my head, I of course don't know that in advance, and also I wouldn't scream before the branch falls.
These two sudden "accidents" are not comparable.

Well I don't think the screams were Reeva's at any point, so clearly I don't think she'd have screamed on being shot either as she wouldn't have had time.

 

[GR_Turner]

I would say: everybody has a different vocabulary and makes more or less an effort to describe something (trial or not).

So you now acknowledge that crying can be screaming and vice versa then?

 

[soozieqtips]

Well, it seems that the stomach contents must be dismissed (since it doesn't support OP's versions because it's "unreliable") and the pathologist's report stating Reeva had time to scream after the first shot must also be dismissed (since it doesn't support OP's versions, and Reeva was no doubt bravely maintaining her silence after being shot in the hip so as not to disturb the invisible intruder who had entered the bathroom in the few seconds it had taken her to leave the bed and enter the toilet) and the police ballistics expert who said there was a pause between the first and second shots (remembering that the second shot missed...) must also be dismissed (since it doesn't support OP's versions, and apparently all four shots, including OP repositioning himself to take another shot, only took "a second".) It seems the only things which shouldn't be dismissed are OP's plethora of lies and contradictions. Am I right??

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbu...dying-the-shortcuts-our-brain-takes-1.3139836

Jumping to conclusions? Studying the shortcuts our brain takes

Her research also indicates that people entrenched in the francophone culture in Canada were far more forgiving with violating schemas.

"For instance, when I say 'mechanic' you get an idea of what a mechanic looks like. If I say the mechanic dropped the wrench and she bent down to pick it up ... there's a slow-down effect of the information and processing. When we violate [the schema] our brain slows down. It chugs a little bit."

Maybe witnesses out of the francophone culture of Canada would be better than the rest? :thinking:

Sorry, I was confused! :blushing: We aren't in Canada. My mind was directed half towards South Africa, half towards Canada (Bosma case).

 

[soozieqtips]

Well I don't think the screams were Reeva's at any point, so clearly I don't think she'd have screamed on being shot either as she wouldn't have had time.

BIB - you know more than the pathologist?

 

[GR_Turner]

BIB - you know more than the pathologist?

I'm not clear what a pathologist would actually know about the likelihood of a person screaming in the second after an unexpected sudden injury. I thought the consensus from the witnesses with medical backgrounds was that someone might scream when injured if primed to expect the injury but that isn't what the defense case is. This all rather pales by comparison to the 5 minutes of 'screaming' heard before the shots. If that was Reeva then she must have screamed during the shots and if it wasn't her then it's irrelevant whether she might have screamed during the shots as OP wouldn't have heard her and it wouldn't invalidate his defense anyway.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

So you now acknowledge that crying can be screaming and vice versa then?

Your final question, "Mr. Roux"? You have cornered me:
Yes maybe - and maybe also hair splitting only caused by an howling yowling killer (have you ever seen such an exemplar?).
The discussion is finished. No one knows exactly who, when, how and why screamed: whether fear of death, whether fear or pain, whether fear with pain, if pain with fear, whether in anger, whether in front of cowardice, if shame, if feeling sorry for himself.
All this is in those few minutes between two parties in front of and behind the toilet door.

 

[Colin de France]

Well I don't think the screams were Reeva's at any point, so clearly I don't think she'd have screamed on being shot either as she wouldn't have had time.

.....do you really believe that ? You know fully well that all of the people can't be wrong all of the time but some of the people can be wrong some of the time which means that of those who heard the screams at least some of them are right....in other words you're wasting your time trying to deny reality....in fact you're just wasting your time...