do you think maddie is alive or dead

[ScarlettScarpetta]

http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com/2012/10/expert-testifies-that-cadaver-dog-gave.html


I find it very interesting that keela was used in the Bianca Jones case! I never knew until I ran across this article. She was reliable enough here wish it could have been the same for Madeleine in Portugal.

The difference is that It was the actual owned car of the person.

In mm case we have rentals and well used apt and car. It was not unique or personal to them.


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[Robin Hood]

They picked up on human cadaver which is different from animal cadaver or biological substances. The history of the apartment was checked and nobody had died in that apartment in the past. The dogs have to differentiate from humans and other animals or they couldn't be used to find human remains, they would be confused too easily by dead squirrels/birds/dogs etc.

 

[Dushi]

A question if i may...

When a dog is looking for body fluids or a cadaver odour.. is it specific to one person or is it anyone who may have bled or died in a certain location?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

They picked up on human cadaver which is different from animal cadaver or biological substances. The history of the apartment was checked and nobody had died in that apartment in the past. The dogs have to differentiate from humans and other animals or they couldn't be used to find human remains, they would be confused to easily by dead squirrels/birds/dogs etc.

Actually after researching that very thought online and here that us not true. They can indeed hit on decomposing blood or biological material. And again since the apt and car were rentals it could have been connected to anyone before them.


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[Gem2626]

The dogs did their job right. They didn't give a toss who's car they smelt cadaver in, they just knew they smelt it, ditto the clothing.

Have you ever seen the footage? It is jarring. How anyone can look at that and say those dogs are "mistaken" is beyond me.

Cadaver Odour in the McCanns Car, Apartment and Clothes - YouTube

Eddie the Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) only alerted to the inside of the car door and on the key fob. How is that evidence of a cadaver? You cannot hide a dead body in the inside of a car door or in a key fob. If a cadaver had been in that car then Eddie would have alerted in rest of the car- say the boot or in the boot of the car where a dead body would have been put.

You know Eddie alerts to dried blood too isn't it far more likely that at some point one of the many people who previously hired the car bled somewhere and that's what he's alerted too.

The video is far from jarring IMO. Apart from what i've pointed out above I would have been much more interested to see the results of a test without the car plastered in Madeleine's photo's.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

 

[Donjeta]

Wasn't that car rented after Madeleine had been reported missing? It's not very likely imo that her body was ever hidden in that car but I suppose some things that had been in contact with her might have been

 

[SapphireSteel]

The theory was that they buried her in the roadworks in front of the church in PDL for the first night.

They then possibly moved her several times, the final time being 25 days later when they rented the Renault and took a trip to Spain.

It is believed that M's decomposing body laid in the trunk on the journey.

The cadaver in the Renault was not expected, nor is it explainable any other way. A corpse has to make direct contact with something to leave behind an odour.

:cow:

 

[Jmoose]

A question if i may...

When a dog is looking for body fluids or a cadaver odour.. is it specific to one person or is it anyone who may have bled or died in a certain location?

Good question-I also have one along these lines, if anybody knows-when Keela "indicates" for blood, is it blood only, or also urine, vomit, etc? The theory that some people have is that the McCanns, both doctors, drugged Maddie so she'd stay sleeping, and she succumbed to the meds. In that case, there wouldn't be any blood, but there might be other bodily fluids.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Good question-I also have one along these lines, if anybody knows-when Keela "indicates" for blood, is it blood only, or also urine, vomit, etc? The theory that some people have is that the McCanns, both doctors, drugged Maddie so she'd stay sleeping, and she succumbed to the meds. In that case, there wouldn't be any blood, but there might be other bodily fluids.

From our resident verified K9 poster -

Eddie is trained to alert to human decomp odor (be that blood, flesh, purge fluids, etc). Keela is trained for blood and blood only. You can have one or both alert. Both of the alerts mean things separately and then together.

You can have HR odor but no external blood present. If that is the case then only Eddie will alert. Keela will not. If you have external blood then both dogs should alert.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - the cadaver dog

 

[Gem2626]

Good question-I also have one along these lines, if anybody knows-when Keela "indicates" for blood, is it blood only, or also urine, vomit, etc? The theory that some people have is that the McCanns, both doctors, drugged Maddie so she'd stay sleeping, and she succumbed to the meds. In that case, there wouldn't be any blood, but there might be other bodily fluids.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

 

[Donjeta]

The theory was that they buried her in the roadworks in front of the church in PDL for the first night.

They then possibly moved her several times, the final time being 25 days later when they rented the Renault and took a trip to Spain.

It is believed that M's decomposing body laid in the trunk on the journey.

The cadaver in the Renault was not expected, nor is it explainable any other way. A corpse has to make direct contact with something to leave behind an odour.

:cow:

JMO but I think it would have been rather risky for the McCanns to go around moving decomposing bodies as they were known to the police and I expect many people recognized them by them. If it was me I would have been too scared that I'd be followed and caught redhanded. And not just once, but several times?

 

[Linda7NJ]

My child went missing. We could not find him for about 30 mins or more. It was dark and cold. But my first thought was someone took him. It is just where my mind went.
He was just gone.
So that she felt maddie was taken right off sounds normal to me.




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Thank goodness you found him!
I do know what you mean I couldn't find mine one morning and my biggest FEAR was someone took him. I didn't dare say that outloud and it certainly did not stop me from screaming his name and searching.
Mine was three years old and I had a super fluffy sofa with big giant cushions ... He wedged himself in the crack behind the pillows where the seat portion and the back meet. couldn't tell he was there at all. Thankfully, he heard me screaming his name and woke up.




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[Gem2626]

BBM and answers in blue

The theory was that they buried her in the roadworks in front of the church in PDL for the first night.

When questioned, the witness replies that the passages and holes made were generally covered up on the same day they were made.

In relation to other openings that could have remained open during the night, from one day to another, the witness says that in the case of the passages, anyone who would fall in would be visible from the road and that the other openings were too small for a two year old child to fall in. The witness adds that these openings would in turn be linked to a series of conducts of a larger size, knowing that in order to link an opening to a conduct, an orifice would be opened in the latter, opened up using a drill. These conducts would have round metallic covers. He saw some of these covers open, for the purposes of being levelled with the pavement, however he knows they were closed at the end of the working day.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FABIO_MARQUES.htm

They then possibly moved her several times, the final time being 25 days later when they rented the Renault and took a trip to Spain.

Right in front of the worlds media and the police. Several times? All these hiding places they put her and no one ever found her

It is believed that M's decomposing body laid in the trunk on the journey.

But Eddie didn't alert in the boot?

The cadaver in the Renault was not expected, nor is it explainable any other way. A corpse has to make direct contact with something to leave behind an odour.

Except the way that I explained it in my last post with links to information about the dog from his handler. Why are you ignoring this? It's not opinion it's fact.


:cow:

 

[jordynsmommy529]

Actually after researching that very thought online and here that us not true. They can indeed hit on decomposing blood or biological material. And again since the apt and car were rentals it could have been connected to anyone before them.


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Do you have a link from a valid source too support this claim? Keela was a blood dog so it's true she could have hit on anything blood related, but Eddie was EVRD only trained too smell cadaver odor it is not possible he hit on blood.

I've seen an elderly woman die in a car accident that I was involved in. I watched them drag her body out of a pond ( her van flipped multiple times and ended up upside down in a pond on the corner of the road) there is nothing you can compare the smell of death too, & it's something you will never forget!

 

[Deleted member 39678]

The theory was that they buried her in the roadworks in front of the church in PDL for the first night.

They then possibly moved her several times, the final time being 25 days later when they rented the Renault and took a trip to Spain.

It is believed that M's decomposing body laid in the trunk on the journey.

The cadaver in the Renault was not expected, nor is it explainable any other way. A corpse has to make direct contact with something to leave behind an odour.

:cow:

BBM

It seems to me that your saying it's impossible for the scent of human decomposition to be transferred from one spot to another and that a dead body has to make contact with a surface in order to leave behind the scent that HRD dogs can later alert to.

Do you have a link to support that?

 

[jordynsmommy529]

The difference is that It was the actual owned car of the person.

In mm case we have rentals and well used apt and car. It was not unique or personal to them.


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BBM

It's very likely that he bought that car used. Who know's how many owner's it previously had. Not much of a difference from the McCann's renting one imoo...

 

[Gem2626]

Do you have a link from a valid source too support this claim? Keela was a blood dog so it's true she could have hit on anything blood related, but Eddie was EVRD only trained too smell cadaver odor it is not possible he hit on blood.

I've seen an elderly woman die in a car accident that I was involved in. I watched them drag her body out of a pond ( her van flipped multiple times and ended up upside down in a pond on the corner of the road) there is nothing you can compare the smell of death too, & it's something you will never forget!

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

 

[jordynsmommy529]

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
material.

Mine as well copy and paste the entire thing!
This is why I believe in Eddie and what he does!

'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.
My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler
cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour.
This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops
handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and
investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour
other than to direct the search.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Here's a link from the American Rescue Dog Associations (ARDA) "Human Remains Detection Certification Evaluation" showing allowable scent materials that are used in HRD dog certification.

Soil sample from where a body has decomposed
−
Clothing items or cloth
from a decomposing body
−
Bone with tissue
−
Tissue
−
Decomposing blood
−
Hair or teeth mixed with
other approved scent material

http://ardainc.org/about_standard.html

http://ardainc.org/docs/ARDA_Human_Remains_Evaluation.pdf

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

BBM

It's very likely that he bought that car used. Who know's how many owner's it previously had. Not much of a difference from the McCann's renting one imoo...

Sure it is.. It was not a rental. Rentals mean new people every week.. Just not at all the same thing/.