do you think maddie is alive or dead

[Deleted member 39678]

Amazing there were no hits in other hotel rooms and other cars..no skinned knees, blood, scabs...
As you insist that's what the dogs must have hit on.
Quite the coincidence huh? Two dogs alerted to the same places, one trained specifically on locating human corpses decomposing and the other for blood... One little girl missing...under the most ridiculous circumstances...and her parents excuses for the dog hits are beyond laughable.

All IMO


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The dogs alerted to locations that they were directed to by the handler. Sounds like possible "cueing" to me.

 

[Linda7NJ]

The dogs alerted to locations that they were directed to by the handler. Sounds like possible "cueing" to me.

Yep highly trained, qualified & certified dogs are puppets used by a corrupt law enforcement system bent on framing the innocent responsible parents??? Do I have that right? That's your explanation?

Alright then.


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[ScarlettScarpetta]

Yep highly trained, qualified & certified dogs are puppets used by a corrupt law enforcement system bent on framing the innocent responsible parents??? Do I have that right? That's your explanation?

Alright then.


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How is that a stretch? People believe anything that points to Madeleine being alive or abducted by a stranger is corruption, Lying bribing based.

The dog could have alerted to decomposing blood.
Someone saw MAdeleine being carried away.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Yep highly trained, qualified & certified dogs are puppets used by a corrupt law enforcement system bent on framing the innocent responsible parents??? Do I have that right? That's your explanation?

Alright then.


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Absolutely not. I have no idea where your getting that from.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Absolutely not. I have no idea where your getting that from.

Look up ^


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[Linda7NJ]

How is that a stretch? People believe anything that points to Madeleine being alive or abducted by a stranger is corruption, Lying bribing based.

The dog could have alerted to decomposing blood.
Someone saw MAdeleine being carried away.

Who ever said anything about bribes? Corruption? I distinctly recall stating I did not believe the eye witness claiming to have witnessed a man carrying her away was deliberately lying.




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[Linda7NJ]

Here's a link from the American Rescue Dog Associations (ARDA) "Human Remains Detection Certification Evaluation" showing allowable scent materials that are used in HRD dog certification.




http://ardainc.org/about_standard.html

http://ardainc.org/docs/ARDA_Human_Remains_Evaluation.pdf

That's great info.

BUT

It has nothing to do with how these particular dogs were trained.


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[Deleted member 39678]

That's great info.

BUT

It has nothing to do with how these particular dogs were trained.


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So your saying that Martin Grime's dogs will not alert to the scent of decomposing human blood? I think that they can. MOO.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Who ever said anything about bribes? Corruption? I distinctly recall stating I did not believe the eye witness claiming to have witnessed a man carrying her away was deliberately lying.




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Okay, fair enough..

I believe that Jane saw Madeleine. The police believed it also. They questioned her about it and even sent out fliers that had the description on it she gave them.

I just don't see anyway around this.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain.

It seems that Martin Grime says that Eddie will alert to human blood.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

 

[Jmoose]

So your saying that Martin Grime's dogs will not alert to the scent of decomposing human blood? I think that they can. MOO.

These particular dogs were trained at the FBI facility at Quantico (see Martin Grimes' testimony, posted here by several Websleuthers). This doesn't exactly answer your question, but it gives additional info on their training. At Quantico, dogs are allowed to be trained with human remains, and not the pig parts that are used in Europe-so they "indicate" on human remains, or human blood, and not that of pig remains or pig blood.

 

[jordynsmommy529]

No proof she is dead.The dog may have hit on something that was decomposing in the room or on the surfaces. Skinned knees, blood, scabs.. All possibilities.

BBM

No proof she is alive either!

 

[Deleted member 39678]

It appears that Martin Grime used pig remains as a training aid.

In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated
assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States.
These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I
introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the
animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption). The result from
scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of
human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train'
the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.

That could be a problem for the dog alerts in this case.

Training Cadaver Dogs on Pig Remains May Lead to Evidentiary Challenges

The difference between pigs and humans was particularly important to describe because pig remains are sometimes used to train human remains detection dogs—cadaver dogs. This practice must now be questioned because the researchers concluded that pig VOC signatures shared only seven of 30 human-specific compounds, while nine unique compounds in pig VOC signatures were not found in human samples. Curiously, chicken and human samples were actually closer to the human signature.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

http://doglawreporter.blogspot.com/2012/04/training-cadaver-dogs-on-pig-remains.html

 

[Gem2626]

"The Government's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) said specialist victim recovery dogs are not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence"

http://news.sky.com/story/844071/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work

Exactly what DNA evidence are people talking about which supposedly back up the dogs claims?

 

[jordynsmommy529]

Okay, fair enough..

I believe that Jane saw Madeleine. The police believed it also. They questioned her about it and even sent out fliers that had the description on it she gave them.

I just don't see anyway around this.

Jane saw Madeleine at 9:15 right? The smith's sighting was at ten. So you mean too tell me 45 mins after making it away with Madeleine he still roaming the streets right around the corner with her?:waitasec:

 

[jordynsmommy529]

It appears that Martin Grime used pig remains as a training aid.



That could be a problem for the dog alerts in this case.

Training Cadaver Dogs on Pig Remains May Lead to Evidentiary Challenges



http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

http://doglawreporter.blogspot.com/2012/04/training-cadaver-dogs-on-pig-remains.html

He has been right in 200 other case's! He didn't happen too be wrong on this one.

 

[Gem2626]

Jane saw Madeleine at 9:15 right? The smith's sighting was at ten. So you mean too tell me 45 mins after making it away with Madeleine he still roaming the streets right around the corner with her?:waitasec:

Who's to say he didn't live nearby/know someone that lived nearby and go hide out for a bit, or planned to walk a certain route but couldn't do so because people were about so took a longer route. Jane Tanner and Martin Smith's description of the man was VERY similar.

 

[Gem2626]

He has been right in 200 other case's! He didn't happen too be wrong on this one.

Is there anything that backs these claims up other than his handlers word?

ETA- Cadaver dog 'evidence' is not allowed in to UK courts because it is not deemed reliable.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Jane saw Madeleine at 9:15 right? The smith's sighting was at ten. So you mean too tell me 45 mins after making it away with Madeleine he still roaming the streets right around the corner with her?:waitasec:

Maybe. Maybe he had her somewhere and then took her out again.

That is only 45 mins. Not much time really.

That would make it 2 sightings.. Sounds like confirmation.

 

[jordynsmommy529]

Who's to say he didn't live nearby/know someone that lived nearby and go hide out for a bit, or planned to walk a certain route but couldn't do so because people were about so took a longer route. Jane Tanner and Martin Smith's description of the man was VERY similar.[/QUOTE


So he walked around with a kidnapped child in the middle of the cold night who had on no shoes and thin pj's without her waking up or being seen by anybody other then them smith's? I'am sorry I just don't think it's possible if he was taking her in and out of house's she would have woken, & if the "abduction" was planned i'am pretty sure he would have had a vehicle too get outta dodge asap..