Doogie Howser is Gay!

[IrishMist]

Ha ha, not quite paradise, but this was one of the propositions that anti-gays tried to reverse & last night in the elections it was voted to keep the domestic partnership law. Not only because it's the right thing to do, but the majority of people for keeping it a law took the stance that it would hurt many children of domestic partnerships by removing their health insurance, which is true. I just can't understand why ANYONE could possibly be against this.

And yet, people are.

I can't understand how people can be against gay marriage. How can a person read the Constitution of the United States of America and still be against gay marriage. I really don't get it.

 

[windovervocalcords]

And yet, people are.

I can't understand how people can be against gay marriage. How can a person read the Constitution of the United States of America and still be against gay marriage. I really don't get it.

Marriage Benefits

• Civil marriage will give same-sex couples the same economic security, protections and peace of mind that is enjoyed by heterosexual married couples.
• There are 400 state benefits and 1,000 federal benefits granted to married couples. Here are just a few:
  • Access to employer-provided health and retirement benefits for partner and non-biological/adoptive children.
  • Access to partner's coverage under Medicare and Social Security.
  • Ability to visit or make medical decisions for an ill or incapacitated partner.
  • Right to sue for wrongful death of partner.
  • Ability to sponsor one's partner for immigration.
  • Economic and emotional stability for children of married parents, including increased societal/peer approval.
  • Access to streamlined adoption process.
  • Access to health benefits and inheritance from both parents.
  • Right to maintain a relationship with the non-biological/adoptive parent in the event of the death of one parent (in states without same-sex second-parent adoptions).
  • Joint insurance policies for home, auto and health.
  • Joint parenting and joint adoption.
  • Bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child.

Cultural Perspective on Equal Marriage

• It was once illegal in many states for people of different races to marry. Just as we ended legal discrimination based on race, we should end discrimination against lesbians, gays, bisexual and transgender people.
• Lesbian and gay couples want to marry for the same reasons as heterosexual couples. No good reason exists for excluding same-sex couples from the protections and responsibilities of marriage.
• Civil marriage for gays and lesbians affirms the importance of the institution of marriage. Marriage is about love and commitment. Heterosexual love is not superior to homosexual love and vice versa. Partnerships should be seen as equal under the law regardless of the gender of the people in them.
• With changing norms and cultural diversity, our society is changing quickly and the definition of a family must change with the times to recognize lesbian and gay families. Allowing same-sex couples to marry shows our commitment to diversity, equality, tolerance and respect.
• There are many stereotypes surrounding same-sex relationships. Homosexuals and their relationships are often judged as a promiscuous and only about sex. These stereotypes need to be recognized and addressed. Lesbian and gay relationships (like heterosexual relationships) are about love and commitment. People who love each other and care about fairness and justice can fight for the equality of all people and support equal marriage.
• The institution of marriage is not static and has changed significantly over time. Married women used to be the legal property of their husbands, Asian immigrants were prohibited from marrying each other, and interracial marriages were prohibited by anti-miscegenation laws. A strong institution accommodates social and cultural shifts. Granting the LGBT community the right to marry is simply the evolution of human rights.

Why Not Civil Unions Instead of Marriage?

• Allowing same-sex couples civil marriage rights opens up marriage to more people and does not redefine religious marriage in our society.
• Separate is not equal. Marriage equality is a fundamental right. Same-sex couples cannot participate fully in our society if they are denied the legal rights and cultural privileges offered to heterosexual couples through marriage.
• Children benefit from legal marriage. One thing that both sides of the marriage issue can agree on is that marriage strengthens families—children are more secure if they are raised by two loving parents whose relationship is legally recognized and who can share the responsibility of parenthood equally. Children of gay and lesbian parents also benefit from the cultural acceptance of legal marriage.
• Civil unions and domestic partnerships are no substitute for civil marriage. Though an important advance in the fight for equality, civil unions and domestic partnerships do not carry the full legal benefits (especially government and tax benefits) or cultural significance of marriage. The substitution of civil unions for legal marriage assigns same-sex couples to second class status—separate and unequal.
• Civil unions only grant couples state benefits. Also, states differ in their eligibility rules for civil unions and states can decide whether or not to recognize civil unions at all. Civil unions do not provide couples with any federal benefits.

Read more: Marriage vs. Civil Unions​

http://www.now.org/issues/marriage/points.html

 

[Details]

....
I will never believe being gay is a sin.

Ah - just ask any church - everything is a sin. Being hetero is a sin too, unless you only have sex in order to have a baby - yeah, right!

I don't believe it either - and this current puritanical crusade to peek behind everyone's bedroom door and spy on their sex life - yikes - go to a theater like everyone else! But then again, I'm not sure that yours and my opinion matters - aren't you also agnostic/atheist? Seems we'd have a hard time saying what is or isn't a sin to a mythical invisible giant in the sky. :crazy:

 

[Nova]

Details, I was still discussing why hetero "sexual positions" aren't a fair comparison to homosexual love and partnerships. That our basic sexuality and, particularly, our longterm relationships are not analogous to "liking to be on top."

As for whether gay people have an obligation to come out, I believe we do. But for entirely different reasons: unlike racial minorities, "gayness" is essentially invisible and easy to ignore politically if we don't remind the majority that we are still here. The early years of the AIDS crisis changed my thinking on this, when for 5 or more years the federal government (and even the city government of Ground Zero (NYC)) simply ignored the mounting casualities. (Compare those 5 years to the millions of dollars spent when 35 Legionnaires contracted a new illness.)

We gays have an obligation to come out because otherwise it's too easy for the majority to decide they "don't know" any real gays and ignore us when a crisis (such as AIDS) hits the community. The fact that we're still explaining the need for gay marriage further illustrates the problem: gay couples have always been around, but in many ways invisible. So our needs (such as protecting our homes and the inheritance of our children) haven't seemed important to most people.

That being said, I realize it's fine for me as a gay man in Palm Springs (54% gay) to say it. And that was true when I lived in Western LA (ETA: Los Angeles, not Louisiana) and New York City, as well.

I accept that gays in other areas may rightly deem it too dangerous to come out publically. Of course, they must see to their own safety.

 

[narlacat]

Ah - just ask any church - everything is a sin. Being hetero is a sin too, unless you only have sex in order to have a baby - yeah, right!

I don't believe it either - and this current puritanical crusade to peek behind everyone's bedroom door and spy on their sex life - yikes - go to a theater like everyone else! But then again, I'm not sure that yours and my opinion matters - aren't you also agnostic/atheist? Seems we'd have a hard time saying what is or isn't a sin to a mythical invisible giant in the sky. :crazy:

Nope.

But I'm with ya, I don't believe in sin fullstop.

 

[windovervocalcords]

Wind hi


I wasn't referring specifically about Catholics in that instance, I was speaking of intolerance in general.

I know, and that is just plain ridiculous.
I will never believe being gay is a sin.

Hi Narla-

I'm just trying to keep you out of trouble. lol

 

[csds703]

And yet, people are.

I can't understand how people can be against gay marriage. How can a person read the Constitution of the United States of America and still be against gay marriage. I really don't get it.

People are ignorant!
I can understand if a church doesn't want to perform the ceremony, same way they won't perform marriage ceremonies for people of different religions. WHATEVERRRRR.... BUT ... There is no reason why gay couples shouldn't be allowed to be married in civil ceremonies.
It actually PISSES ME OFF that our elected officials waste so much time on this, when there are bigger problems in this country than whether or not two people who love each other want to be legally married. It's time they were granted the same legal rights as everybody else.

 

[Details]

An announcement has to be made. Because you are assumed to be hetero.

You go through Jr. High, and High school. You know you are different, but listen to your friends- how they talk, what they say... hell, in some places they go to known gay hang outs and "beat up the ." For fun. That's what they do for fun. So you hide it still.

With any luck and forebearance and strength of character, you decide to be who you really are, dammit. And sometimes you pay a huge price for that.

But I think it's a worse price to pay to have to hide who you are.

One day, I hope it's more like what you are saying. But we, as a society, are nowhere near that yet.

So - you are saying that the cousin is wrong to not discuss it? She's not a good enough gay because she hasn't had her coming out party? Even if she's living openly, not hiding who she is, it's not good enough, an announcement must be made? I just don't see that. If she wanted to make an announcement - of course that's just fine. But if she doesn't, it shouldn't be expected.

I'm not anti-announcement - I'm just saying it shouldn't be necessary. And a loved one shouldn't feel like it's a secret if it hasn't been formally announced, when someone is living openly.

 

[IrishMist]

Nope.

But I'm with ya, I don't believe in sin fullstop.

Narla, what the heck does that mean?

 

[narlacat]

Hi Narla-

I'm just trying to keep you out of trouble. lol

I know and I love you for it :blowkiss:

 

[Nova]

It may well be, but it's the truth, unless of course you are a Catholic priest, then it's okay

You think I should be tolerant of people that think it's okay to persecute/ostracize/bash to death gays?
I'm sorry but my level of tolerance doesn't stretch that far.

Thanks, Narla. We all have to be careful of the "tolerance of intolerance" trap.

(P.S. Have you seen some TV commercials where a black dude with a huge Afro "hitsercizes" people who listen to bad music and converts them to hip sounds? I'm told it's a big deal in your country. The actor who plays the "Hitsorcisor" is a close friend of mine.)

 

[windovervocalcords]

People are ignorant!
I can understand if a church doesn't want to perform the ceremony, same way they won't perform marriage ceremonies for people of different religions. WHATEVERRRRR.... BUT ... There is no reason why gay couples shouldn't be allowed to be married in civil ceremonies.
It actually PISSES ME OFF that our elected officials waste so much time on this, when there are bigger problems in this country than whether or not two people who love each other want to be legally married. It's time they were granted the same legal rights as everybody else.

Thank you.

 

[narlacat]

Narla, what the heck does that mean? http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/waitasec.gif

I don't believe in sin in general, it's all bs.....you can't do this, you can't do that...if you do this...if you do that....fgs it doesn't work like that...sin is a man made concept.

 

[IrishMist]

So - you are saying that the cousin is wrong to not discuss it? She's not a good enough gay because she hasn't had her coming out party? Even if she's living openly, not hiding who she is, it's not good enough, an announcement must be made? I just don't see that. If she wanted to make an announcement - of course that's just fine. But if she doesn't, it shouldn't be expected.

I'm not anti-announcement - I'm just saying it shouldn't be necessary. And a loved one shouldn't feel like it's a secret if it hasn't been formally announced, when someone is living openly.

Ah, I see what you're saying. No, I don't mean a general announcement to the world, but I'm sure her cousin has "announced it." To someone.

In a response to Michelle, that was one of my opinions. That the cousin just may not have the need to discuss it- with Michelle or anybody else.

I can understand not discussing it with a religious member of my family.

 

[IrishMist]

I don't believe in sin in general, it's all bs.....you can't do this, you can't do that...if you do this...if you do that....fgs it doesn't work like that...sin is a man made concept.

Oh, gotcha! Thanks.

 

[narlacat]

Thanks, Narla. We all have to be careful of the "tolerance of intolerance" trap.

(P.S. Have you seen some TV commercials where a black dude with a huge Afro "hitsercizes" people who listen to bad music and converts them to hip sounds? I'm told it's a big deal in your country. The actor who plays the "Hitsorcisor" is a close friend of mine.)

Hi Nova

Yes, I know-

Um, I don't think so...I know of one ad (adverstisment) that has a black dude with a huge afro and he walks under a ceiling fan which is why his hair is flat on top....but for the life of me I can't think what the ad is for lol lol- you think it's that one?

 

[Details]

Ah, I see what you're saying. No, I don't mean a general announcement to the world, but I'm sure her cousin has "announced it." To someone.

In a response to Michelle, that was one of my opinions. That the cousin just may not have the need to discuss it- with Michelle or anybody else.

I can understand not discussing it with a religious member of my family.

Yep, me too. I'd figure if they wanted to discuss it, I'd be happy to, but no reason to start the conversation or make it a big thing (unless they shunned or were obnoxious to a SO of mine).

 

[Nova]

I know intolerant people of many different religions. I don't much agree with the "politics" of the Catholic church, BUT I know some really great Catholics including my husband.

Given its enormous political influence, some of the positions of the Church are truly odious. HOWEVER, in my personal experience with individual Catholics (including here at WS), nearly all have been quite tolerant. Not so much a case of "love the sinner, hate the sin," as "love the sinner and leave some of the more mystifying edicts of the OT to God."

 

[Nova]

Oh, gotcha! Thanks.

"Full stop" is what the Brits and their former colonies call the little dot at the end of this sentence.

In American, Narla said, "I don't believe in sin, PERIOD." Meaning no exceptions.

 

[IrishMist]

"Full stop" is what the Brits and their former colonies call the little dot at the end of this sentence.

In American, Narla said, "I don't believe in sin, PERIOD." Meaning no exceptions.

I didn't know that! Thanks, Nova