DOUBLE LOOP KNOT: JonBenet was posed

[UKGuy]

but for an IDI believer, to know exactly HOW the wrists were tied together and whether or not they were tied in some way to the ankles would be of considerable significance, IMO.

aussiesheila,

Even if you had all these details how would you distinguish an IDI from a Staging scenario?

You really want to ask the person who was present at the crime-scene when JonBenet's body was discovered, he that returned to inspect the tape that 'fell' from her mouth. e.g. Fleet White.

 

[Seeker]

This isn't rocket science.

Just how would anyone try to "untie" a knot? Duh! You attempt pull one section out to loosen it. What happens when you don't finish pulling it through/out? Again, Duh! It makes a LOOP...

There were probably only 2 loops. Both too large and NOT adjustable (just look at it it's a simple regular square knot. To adjust it you would have to untie it then retie it). When JR stated he "tried to untie them but the knot was too tight" he was probably explaining that he started to pull the knot loose by pulling one bit loose and then abandoning the "untieing" because he realized her hands were not restrained. The 2 loops were simply just too big and he most likely figured that out when the left one slipped off her wrist as he was attempting to "untie the knot" in it.

What looks like a little loop at the very end is not from the entire cord, but only from the frayed threads at the end of the cord. It couldn't hold anything, but especially not a child's feet!

 

[rashomon]

Even after reading the transcripts of his 3 interviews I still can't work out which knot(s) of the wrist ligatures he undid. I understand that for people who think the Ramseys are guilty, how the two wrist were tied together is neither here nor there, but for an IDI believer, to know exactly HOW the wrists were tied together and whether or not they were tied in some way to the ankles would be of considerable significance, IMO.

There is a picture somewhere which shows the smaller loop still in place. It is tied on top of JB's sleeve.
That it is tied on top of the sleeve should raise a thousand red flags: no kidnapper would tie it that way. For theoretically, the victim need only tug at the sleeve, pull it out under the loop and could slide her wrist free, especially since there was a 15 1/2 inches space between the two wrist loops, allowing free movement. Imo these ligatures obviously did not serve the purpose of restraint. I think they were bound on JB's already dead body for staging purposes.

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

Even if you had all these details how would you distinguish an IDI from a Staging scenario?

I don't know whether I could necessarily tell an IDI from staging even if I did have all these details. But I would like to know how she was bound up - whether her wrists were bound to her ankles or not, every bit of information helps.

You really want to ask the person who was present at the crime-scene when JonBenet's body was discovered, he that returned to inspect the tape that 'fell' from her mouth. e.g. Fleet White.

Yes, I would VERY much like to ask FW a few questions, and I'm sure I would have a lot more to ask him than the BPD ever did.

 

[aussiesheila]

This isn't rocket science.

Just how would anyone try to "untie" a knot? Duh! You attempt pull one section out to loosen it. What happens when you don't finish pulling it through/out? Again, Duh! It makes a LOOP...

There were probably only 2 loops. Both too large and NOT adjustable (just look at it it's a simple regular square knot. To adjust it you would have to untie it then retie it). When JR stated he "tried to untie them but the knot was too tight" he was probably explaining that he started to pull the knot loose by pulling one bit loose and then abandoning the "untieing" because he realized her hands were not restrained. The 2 loops were simply just too big and he most likely figured that out when the left one slipped off her wrist as he was attempting to "untie the knot" in it.

What looks like a little loop at the very end is not from the entire cord, but only from the frayed threads at the end of the cord. It couldn't hold anything, but especially not a child's feet!

Well maybe it isn't rocket science, and maybe I'm just too duh, dumb to understand what you are saying. But you don't seem to understand what I was saying either. Have you actually looked at the 2 photos showing the ligature still in place on the right wrist, both the upper side and the underneath side? Judging by your reply it would seem that you haven't.

 

[aussiesheila]

There is a picture somewhere which shows the smaller loop still in place. It is tied on top of JB's sleeve.
That it is tied on top of the sleeve should raise a thousand red flags: no kidnapper would tie it that way. For theoretically, the victim need only tug at the sleeve, pull it out under the loop and could slide her wrist free, especially since there was a 15 1/2 inches space between the two wrist loops, allowing free movement. Imo these ligatures obviously did not serve the purpose of restraint. I think they were bound on JB's already dead body for staging purposes.

Yes rashomon, I have to agree with you that no kidnapper would tie a cord around a victim's wrist that way. But then, I never believed there was a kidnapper, so that has not been an issue for me. Neither do I believe the cords tied around the wrists were part of any staging. I am pretty certain JonBenet was bound up for the purposes of sexual molestation. I am trying to work out just how it was done. I expect it to be consistent with the manner in which other child victims of sexual molestation are bound. If it is found that she was not bound in this way then I will change my theory as to how she died.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

If JonBenet was restrained during the sexual abuse then she wasn't during the strangling, because her hands were free enough to claw at the restraint around her neck. She left scratches on her skin while trying to remove the constriction. I would think that if she was bound during the molesting, she would continue to be bound during the strangling - and since evidence shows her hands were free enough to reach her neck and claw at the rope there, I assume she wasn't bound during the molesting either.

I think the molester/killer was someone she knew very well and was accustomed to obeying without question - most likely one of her parents.

 

[rashomon]

Yes rashomon, I have to agree with you that no kidnapper would tie a cord around a victim's wrist that way. But then, I never believed there was a kidnapper, so that has not been an issue for me. Neither do I believe the cords tied around the wrists were part of any staging. I am pretty certain JonBenet was bound up for the purposes of sexual molestation. I am trying to work out just how it was done. I expect it to be consistent with the manner in which other child victims of sexual molestation are bound. If it is found that she was not bound in this way then I will change my theory as to how she died.

What strikes me about those wrist ligatures is the big space between the right and left ligature. 15 1/2 inches is a lot of space, which would allow free movement of the hands. Which is why I ask myself, what is the purpose of a ligature which allows movement of the hands? Isn't the purpose of a ligature preventing free movement? I can't imagine sexually molested victims being tied up in such a way which would enable them to move their hands around like that.

Aussiesheila, you ruled out a kidnapping (so do I and I think virtually everyone here).
Who do you think wrote the ransom note, and why?

 

[UKGuy]

What strikes me about those wrist ligatures is the big space between the right and left ligature. 15 1/2 inches is a lot of space, which would allow free movement of the hands. Which is why I ask myself, what is the purpose of a ligature which allows movement of the hands? Isn't the purpose of a ligature preventing free movement? I can't imagine sexually molested victims being tied up in such a way which would enable them to move their hands around like that.

Aussiesheila, you ruled out a kidnapping (so do I and I think virtually everyone here).
Who do you think wrote the ransom note, and why?

rashomon,

aussiesheila suggests distuinguishing and IDI from a Staging is difficult.

If the ligature is staging, which I think it is, then speculation without other evidence is just that.

If it is staging but then had a prior use, which it may have done.

aussiesheila thinks it may have been used to restrain JonBenet as she was being sexually molested, this is possible.

As is her corpse dressed and bound, to mimic a kidnapping staging.

R's: Oh look what we found when we woke up, after reading the nasty RN, lets dial 911.

There are indications via the forensic evidence that JonBenet's regular day-to-day appearance had been modified.

But in the wine-cellar all this is masked by the apparent staging of a Compulsive Sexual Homicide.

Lastly there is the simple solution that the ligature cord just happened to be lying about and was hastily added to a staging.

Otherwise there should be rope burns, or some form of bondage marks on JonBenet's body to demonstrate she was tied up.

Unless you wish to interpret the abrasions, termed by some as stun-gun marks, as pressure point bruising from being bound during an assault?

Then a compliant victim, e.g. a daughter, does not require to be bound up.

So either the ligature cord is staging or part of some prior event in her homicide.


.

 

[Seeker]

Well maybe it isn't rocket science, and maybe I'm just too duh, dumb to understand what you are saying. But you don't seem to understand what I was saying either. Have you actually looked at the 2 photos showing the ligature still in place on the right wrist, both the upper side and the underneath side? Judging by your reply it would seem that you haven't.

aussie, I wasn't even following your conversation when I posted that. Just frustrated that there would even be a thread like this when it's so obvious that there was not a deliberate "double loop knot" and definately not slipknots in the traditional sense.

Yes, I've seen those photo's for years. I'm not disagreeing with you that the wrist ligatures were staged. A true "slipknot" IMPO is able to be adjusted without being completely untied. The ones on JonBenet were not, not even the one at the back of her neck (see link farther below where I mention I don't see any scratches on JonBenet's neck for photo that shows knot at back of neck). What I'm seeing are 2 standard square knots with one that looks as if it was pulled (from the knot) in an attempt to untie it thereby creating the "double loop" we see here. When I think of a "slipknot" I think of either shoelaces or a ropers slipknot. These types of actual slipknots are adjustable without having to untie, or pull the knot loose by pulling one piece out of it in an effort to untie it. Kind of like when your shoelaces ends slip through and tie themselves into a square knot. BTW the "cord" reminds me of shoelaces....does it to you too? That could be why the ends are frayed...like someone cut the little plastic ends off.

Nuisanceposter If JonBenet was restrained during the sexual abuse then she wasn't during the strangling, because her hands were free enough to claw at the restraint around her neck. She left scratches on her skin while trying to remove the constriction.

Do you have something that shows there was JonBenet's own flesh under her nails that I've never seen? If so I would appreciate being able to see it too. Not trying to be confrontational, just trying to see if I missed something.
I can't see any scratch marks on JonBenet's neck from her own nails anywhere...
Just wondering where you see them in either of these photo's.

 

[aussiesheila]

What strikes me about those wrist ligatures is the big space between the right and left ligature. 15 1/2 inches is a lot of space, which would allow free movement of the hands. Which is why I ask myself, what is the purpose of a ligature which allows movement of the hands? Isn't the purpose of a ligature preventing free movement? I can't imagine sexually molested victims being tied up in such a way which would enable them to move their hands around like that.

Aussiesheila, you ruled out a kidnapping (so do I and I think virtually everyone here).
Who do you think wrote the ransom note, and why?

yes rashomon, I am trying to understand the large length (15.5 inches) also. It is very curious. That is why I wish someone had questioned John more extensively about just how the wrists were bound together and where was that 15.5 inches? Was it loose between each wrist so that the wrists were not actually bound close together or was it bound around and around the two wrists holding them tightly together? Did he increase or decrease its length when he loosened the knot on the left wrist?

If LE had been seriously considering the possibility that an intruder of some kind or other killed JonBenet they would surely have asked him those types of questions. Then fact that they didn't is just another indication that LE were convinced a Ramsey did it and that how they had tied the wrists were was a detail of no significance.

I think it is most likely that the wrists were always separated by that 15.5 inches of cord. I think JonBenet was stood on a chair in THAT doorway with her arms held straight above her head by the cord being connected to some kind of hook attached to the top of the door frame. But I haven't dismissed BlueCrab's idea that the 15.5 inches connected the wrists to the ankles and that she was bound in the same way as that Barbie doll found on the front lawn.

And rashomon, you KNOW I am absolutely certain Patsy wrote the note, I've written it so many times, you must have just forgotten, I know it is easy to do, there are so many different ideas out there. I have also posted many times WHY I think she wrote it and there is not a single poster who has not said my reason is ludicrous. I think you were one of them. If you want to know why I think she wrote it please go to the Members' Theories thread and read post 16. I just don't think I could stand the howls of disbelief yet again if I posted my reason why again.

 

[aussiesheila]

If JonBenet was restrained during the sexual abuse then she wasn't during the strangling, because her hands were free enough to claw at the restraint around her neck. She left scratches on her skin while trying to remove the constriction. I would think that if she was bound during the molesting, she would continue to be bound during the strangling - and since evidence shows her hands were free enough to reach her neck and claw at the rope there, I assume she wasn't bound during the molesting either.

I think the molester/killer was someone she knew very well and was accustomed to obeying without question - most likely one of her parents.

Nuisanceposter, I don't think you are correct when you say JonBenet left scratches on her skin while trying to remove the constriction. I did not see any reference to this in the autopsy report nor have I seen any photos of these scratches. Unless you can convince me of the existence of scratch marks, I will continue to believe she was tied up prior to the molesting, and remained so until after her death.

 

[UKGuy]

The assertion that JBR was strangled by something other than the garrote is the same as the following assertion: the car that caused the crash must be missing, even though there are already two damaged cars at the scene that traded paint!

Was there some actual forensic evidence we missed that would point to another cause of strangulation besides the garrote?

Holdontoyourhat,

I think I know what you are meaning, even if both your statements are invalid.

Let me illustrate why using your own example. If there are two cars at an accident crime-scene, then who is to say there was never a third e.g. the one that got away, wrt JonBenet this would be the intruder.

Forensic Evidence: If you review the autopsy photographs you will notice she has multiple abrasions and bruising around her neck, this is normally indicative of some kind of manual asphyxiation.

That is they would not result from a clinical and professional application of the garrote as suggested by Lou Smit.

Lastly even if you were correct in what you assumed above, you will not have demonstrated that any of the forensic evidence is not staged.

This is critical otherwise you may be basing all your assumptions upon staged evidence. Lou Smit did this and his Intruder Theory has been demonstrated to be flawed, and by the forensic evidence!

 

[Seeker]

I think it is most likely that the wrists were always separated by that 15.5 inches of cord. I think JonBenet was stood on a chair in THAT doorway with her arms held straight above her head by the cord being connected to some kind of hook attached to the top of the door frame. But I haven't dismissed BlueCrab's idea that the 15.5 inches connected the wrists to the ankles and that she was bound in the same way as that Barbie doll found on the front lawn.

Except that the Barbie doll was bound with her hands behind her back....

If JonBenet had been bound that way there should have been ligature marks or abrasions of some kind on her wrists & ankles.
She wasn't wearing socks, so why no abrasions or marks on her ankles if they were bound?

 

[aussiesheila]

Except that the Barbie doll was bound with her hands behind her back....

Yes Seeker, that's the way I meant. I know BlueCrab has come up with another idea for how she was posed but I think he was the one who originated the idea of her wrists and ankles being bound by the one ligature cord and it was this idea I was referring to.

If JonBenet had been bound that way there should have been ligature marks or abrasions of some kind on her wrists & ankles.
She wasn't wearing socks, so why no abrasions or marks on her ankles if they were bound?

The wrist ligature was on the outside of her Gap shirt sleeves, so that would have given them protection. But yes the ankles, you would think there would have been abrasions or marks on them if they had been tied as well. But as I indicated in my post I'm not that hot on the wrists-tied-to-ankles idea so I'm not going to go to any great lengths to defend it. I actually think she might have been set up in the standing position on a chair in a doorway with her arms stretched upwards, held by the cord between her wrists being secured to some point above her head.

 

[aussiesheila]

aussie, I wasn't even following your conversation when I posted that. Just frustrated that there would even be a thread like this when it's so obvious that there was not a deliberate "double loop knot" and definately not slipknots in the traditional sense.

Thanks Seeker, for making that clear.
I am quite ignorant about knots and don't even know what the terms 'slipknots', 'double loop knots' etc mean so please be patient with the likes of me as I try to understand what is there in those photos.

Yes, I've seen those photo's for years. I'm not disagreeing with you that the wrist ligatures were staged.

No I most definitely do not think the wrist ligatures were staged, sorry if I gave that impression.

I think understanding the exact knot structure and loop arrangement would give very significant clues as to the real purpose of the binding and therefore whether it was applied by sexual abusers, an intending kidnapper, or an intentional killer. I am most surprised that BPD made no effort to investigate this fully. Well no, I'm not really surprised since I know they were only interested in investigating anything that would implicate the Ramseys.

A true "slipknot" IMPO is able to be adjusted without being completely untied. The ones on JonBenet were not, not even the one at the back of her neck (see link farther below where I mention I don't see any scratches on JonBenet's neck for photo that shows knot at back of neck). What I'm seeing are 2 standard square knots with one that looks as if it was pulled (from the knot) in an attempt to untie it thereby creating the "double loop" we see here.

OK so this is the garrote5 photo and you call those 2 knots standard square knots. So far so good. The knot on the RHS of the photo you say looks as if it was pulled (from the knot). Yes I agree with this and I think this is the one JR pulled in his unsuccessful attempt to untie the cord and remove it from the left hand, and in doing so creating the "double loop" you mention. So then, when he couldn't untie the knot, would you agree that he then just tugged at the cord until he pulled it over the left hand and off by brute force?

When I think of a "slipknot" I think of either shoelaces or a ropers slipknot. These types of actual slipknots are adjustable without having to untie, or pull the knot loose by pulling one piece out of it in an effort to untie it. Kind of like when your shoelaces ends slip through and tie themselves into a square knot.

Thanks for all that information, Seeker, most helpful.

And you are quite sure are you that the knots would be tight and essentially immoveable immediately they were created? Not as I think someone has posted, adjustable until weight is put on them? This is all correct is it?

Now for the right wrist - and this time Seeker, would you please go to the Sundance site and look at the autopsy photos (they are in the Photos box, 2nd from right, autopsy photos are on page 2), one of the upper side of the right wrist and one of the underside of the right wrist, both showing the cord still attached. Please would you tell me what you think of the second knot on the upper wrist side creating what looks to me like a second loop? A second loop that is not there in the garotte5 photo, I am presuming because Meyer undid it completely. What sort of knot does it look like to you?

BTW the "cord" reminds me of shoelaces....does it to you too? That could be why the ends are frayed...like someone cut the little plastic ends off.

Yes it does, but do you mean it was from shoelaces? I don't think so. I think it is thicker and I'm sure you could buy it from the roll if you wanted.

 

[aussiesheila]

A true "slipknot" IMPO is able to be adjusted without being completely untied. The ones on JonBenet were not, not even the one at the back of her neck (see link farther below where I mention I don't see any scratches on JonBenet's neck for photo that shows knot at back of neck).
photo 1 see
photo 2 where

Seeker, I have to disagree with you here, you can't even see the knot on the neck ligature in either of the 2 photos you have posted links to.

If you go to this photo garrote4 you can actually see the neck ligature knot and it looks very much as though the cord could be pulled through the loop that has been created by the knot. Far be it for me to give a name to the knot but just looking at the image, it is pretty clear to me that this would be so.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote5.jpg

Its a standard slip knot. It looks like if you were to pull on the double loop cord from the 15 inch section, the lower right loop would pull completely thru, and then there would be no double loop, and no single loop either, at that end of the cord.

 

[aussiesheila]

http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote5.jpg

Its a standard slip knot. It looks like if you were to pull on the double loop cord from the 15 inch section, the lower right loop would pull completely thru, and then there would be no double loop, and no single loop either, at that end of the cord.

Oh no! This means you disagree with Seeker doesn't it Holdontoyourhat? And I thought I had it all worked out. I have absolutely no way of telling which one of you is correct.

 

[aussiesheila]

The photo shows a smaller double-loop at the other end, with a knot in its center. Its possible that both of these smaller loops are able to be sized smaller, as length is then added to the middle (15") section. I think these loops went around JBR's wrists, even though it wasn't found that way on her.

So Holdontoyourhat, what do you think was the purpose of the large loop at the other end of the cord?