DOUBLE LOOP KNOT: JonBenet was posed

[BlueCrab]

sissi,

I agree with you. Either the description given to us in books and affidavits is incorrect or that is an additional piece of tape.

Its color and length do not match what we have read so either it has some other staging purpose or was part of what ocurred prior to her body reaching the wine-cellar?

One thing is certain, its not there by accident!


Possibly it was meant to secure the blanket to her body?

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UKGuy,

What photo are you guys talking about? The only photo I have is the one with the white blanket lying bunched up on the wine cellar floor with the crumpled piece of black duct tape lying on the blanket. It appears that some of the light grey back of the tape (the sticky side) is also showing.

The blanket and tape are in the foreground of the picture, which makes them look larger than they really are compared to the door in the background.

If JonBenet's ankles were bound together, the double loop knot would have been sufficient. There was no tape on the legs or the tape would have been put into evidence.

BlueCrab

 

[sissi]

UKGuy,

What photo are you guys talking about? The only photo I have is the one with the white blanket lying bunched up on the wine cellar floor with the crumpled piece of black duct tape lying on the blanket. It appears that some of the light grey back of the tape (the sticky side) is also showing.

The blanket and tape are in the foreground of the picture, which makes them look larger than they really are compared to the door in the background.

If JonBenet's ankles were bound together, the double loop knot would have been sufficient. There was no tape on the legs or the tape would have been put into evidence.

BlueCrab

I took another look and it looks as though it is too large and the wrong color. Fleet said he picked it up , did he disturb the blanket ,too?
http://www.acandyrose.com/149blanket.jpg

 

[Nehemiah]

There was more than one blanket. Plus, on the search warrants, there are some items on the lists that are blacked out. Maybe that is the tape that is listed and blacked out for some reason?

 

[capps]

UKGuy,

What photo are you guys talking about? The only photo I have is the one with the white blanket lying bunched up on the wine cellar floor with the crumpled piece of black duct tape lying on the blanket. It appears that some of the light grey back of the tape (the sticky side) is also showing.

The blanket and tape are in the foreground of the picture, which makes them look larger than they really are compared to the door in the background.

If JonBenet's ankles were bound together, the double loop knot would have been sufficient. There was no tape on the legs or the tape would have been put into evidence.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Can you see now the tapes we are talking about?
There is one fairly large strip of what looks like silver tape,lying very neatly on the blanket;right next to it appears to be a crumpled up piece of black tape .... or what we are assuming is the black tape.

ETA: I looked at the blanket again ... the only other thing I think the "silver tape" may be is maybe the way the blanket is laying,it is a part of a satin edging on the blanket?

 

[sissi]

There was more than one blanket. Plus, on the search warrants, there are some items on the lists that are blacked out. Maybe that is the tape that is listed and blacked out for some reason?

I think this may be it! One of the blacked out items.


Capps, during the interview LE showed JR this piece of tape and he said it did not appear similar to what he took off of Jonbenet. It's tape and there doesn't seem to be a "leak" provided anywhere to explain it.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

What photo are you guys talking about? The only photo I have is the one with the white blanket lying bunched up on the wine cellar floor with the crumpled piece of black duct tape lying on the blanket. It appears that some of the light grey back of the tape (the sticky side) is also showing.

The blanket and tape are in the foreground of the picture, which makes them look larger than they really are compared to the door in the background.

If JonBenet's ankles were bound together, the double loop knot would have been sufficient. There was no tape on the legs or the tape would have been put into evidence.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Its crime-scene photograph numbered 149. I will defer to other peoples judgement on this one, since the tape is of USA origin.

But what I see, regardless of color, seems longer in length that what I assumed had been placed on her mouth.

I'm not arguing for tape on the legs, just that whats in that photo does not correspond with what either JR states/mistates in his interviews or its description in the various books.

Also Ive never seen black tape that was a different color on the gummed side!

From memory FW said he went back and picked it up looked at and placed it back down on the blanket.

So there is something about that tape, just as there was with the blanket and the barbie nightgown ...


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[UKGuy]

BlueCrab,

Can you see now the tapes we are talking about?
There is one fairly large strip of what looks like silver tape,lying very neatly on the blanket;right next to it appears to be a crumpled up piece of black tape .... or what we are assuming is the black tape.

ETA: I looked at the blanket again ... the only other thing I think the "silver tape" may be is maybe the way the blanket is laying,it is a part of a satin edging on the blanket?

capps,

You may be correct about the 'satin edging', if I enlarge the photo to far it looses detail.

What I assumed was a the hollow where the blanket folds maybe this is the small piece of tape, but I realize its curious we have never seen it itemized!

.
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[Toltec]

Arndt told Fleet White to guard the basement door as to not let anyone in....Fleet must have misunderstood Det. Arndt because he went downstairs and guarded the wine cellar door.

Fleet ran back downstairs to the wine cellar....picked up the tape and examined it....he must have recognized that it was tape used in sailing....and that it belonged to John Ramsey.

 

[BlueCrab]

Fleet ran back downstairs to the wine cellar....picked up the tape and examined it....he must have recognized that it was tape used in sailing....and that it belonged to John Ramsey.

Toltec,

Yes, good thinking Toltec. Fleet White, by going back downstairs and more carefully examining the piece of black tape, could have recognized it as belonging to a roll owned by John Ramsey and used in sailing. Fleet White and John Ramsey had sailed together. Fleet going back down stairs and picking up the tape now makes sense.

IMO Fleet White knows a Ramsey is involved in the death of JonBenet and that is the basis for the falling out between the Ramseys and the Whites.

BlueCrab

 

[BlueCrab]

Do not lose sight of the fact that a double-loop knot exists and, according to the coroner's description as he removed the ligatures from JonBenet's body, the double-loops were not around JonBenet's wrists. He described a separate knot that tied the wrists together.

The two loops made by the double loop knot had to have had a purpose, and the purpose was not to tie the wrists together. Therefore, the only logical purpose remaining to seriously consider was that the loops were used to tie JonBenet's legs together at the ankles and pose her.

Evidence of JonBenet's body likely being indecently posed changes my opinions about what may have taken place during the murder. The posing of the body in conjunction with possible stun gun injuries and birefringent foreign material from the wooden stick found in the vagina, points toward torture.

Please do not ignore the possible ramifications of the previously undiscussed double-loop knot shown in the autopsy photos and explained in the autopsy report.

BlueCrab

 

[UKGuy]

Do not lose sight of the fact that a double-loop knot exists and, according to the coroner's description as he removed the ligatures from JonBenet's body, the double-loops were not around JonBenet's wrists. He described a separate knot that tied the wrists together.

The two loops made by the double loop knot had to have had a purpose, and the purpose was not to tie the wrists together. Therefore, the only logical purpose remaining to seriously consider was that the loops were used to tie JonBenet's legs together at the ankles and pose her.

Evidence of JonBenet's body likely being indecently posed changes my opinions about what may have taken place during the murder. The posing of the body in conjunction with possible stun gun injuries and birefringent foreign material from the wooden stick found in the vagina, points toward torture.

Please do not ignore the possible ramifications of the previously undiscussed double-loop knot shown in the autopsy photos and explained in the autopsy report.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Therefore, the only logical purpose remaining to seriously consider was that the loops were used to tie JonBenet's legs together at the ankles and pose her.


I can think of some other logical purpose to which double-loop knots may be applied, not least of which is the consideration, that if the cord is part of the wine-cellar staging then the double-loop may already have formed part of its stucture if it was acquired in an ad-hoc manner.

The posing, stun-gun and torture elements are not new. These were originally proposed by Lou Smit, and the forensic evidence recovered from the wine-cellar completely refutes his theory that a sadistic sociopathic intruder tortured and asphyxiated JonBenet for his/her own personal sexual pleasure.

If JonBenet was indecently posed, why was she not left as such, this would lend credence to an intruder scenario. What was discovered, is an elaborate staged crime scene, why bother with all that if you can just let the police investigation take its course and find JonBenet's corpse?

Its just as likely that someone was undoing someone elses prior attempts at staging, what you are proposing as indecent posing may simply have been JonBenet bound after death, the double-loop may indeed have been around her wrists, but then removed.

I'm not suggesting thats correct, just that its another logical interpretation of the evidence.


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[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab,

Therefore, the only logical purpose remaining to seriously consider was that the loops were used to tie JonBenet's legs together at the ankles and pose her.


I can think of some other logical purpose to which double-loop knots may be applied, not least of which is the consideration, that if the cord is part of the wine-cellar staging then the double-loop may already have formed part of its stucture if it was acquired in an ad-hoc manner.

The posing, stun-gun and torture elements are not new. These were originally proposed by Lou Smit, and the forensic evidence recovered from the wine-cellar completely refutes his theory that a sadistic sociopathic intruder tortured and asphyxiated JonBenet for his/her own personal sexual pleasure.

If JonBenet was indecently posed, why was she not left as such, this would lend credence to an intruder scenario. What was discovered, is an elaborate staged crime scene, why bother with all that if you can just let the police investigation take its course and find JonBenet's corpse?

Its just as likely that someone was undoing someone elses prior attempts at staging, what you are proposing as indecent posing may simply have been JonBenet bound after death, the double-loop may indeed have been around her wrists, but then removed.

I'm not suggesting thats correct, just that its another logical interpretation of the evidence.


.

UKGuy,

Perhaps the loops were around her wrists at one time, but IMO it's not very likely. The wrists had a ligature on them that had held them tightly together. That's a known fact.

Therefore, Occam's Razor has to be invoked at this point. The two "leftover" loops almost certainly had to have been on JonBenet's ankles.

BlueCrab

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab,

Also Ive never seen black tape that was a different color on the gummed side!

UKGuy,

I just bought a roll of black duct tape. The gummed side is light grey, almost white.

What you likely see on the white blanket is the sticky side of the black duct tape.

BlueCrab

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

BlueCrab,

Therefore, the only logical purpose remaining to seriously consider was that the loops were used to tie JonBenet's legs together at the ankles and pose her.


I can think of some other logical purpose to which double-loop knots may be applied, not least of which is the consideration, that if the cord is part of the wine-cellar staging then the double-loop may already have formed part of its stucture if it was acquired in an ad-hoc manner.

The posing, stun-gun and torture elements are not new. These were originally proposed by Lou Smit, and the forensic evidence recovered from the wine-cellar completely refutes his theory that a sadistic sociopathic intruder tortured and asphyxiated JonBenet for his/her own personal sexual pleasure.

If JonBenet was indecently posed, why was she not left as such, this would lend credence to an intruder scenario. What was discovered, is an elaborate staged crime scene, why bother with all that if you can just let the police investigation take its course and find JonBenet's corpse?

Its just as likely that someone was undoing someone elses prior attempts at staging, what you are proposing as indecent posing may simply have been JonBenet bound after death, the double-loop may indeed have been around her wrists, but then removed.

I'm not suggesting thats correct, just that its another logical interpretation of the evidence.


.

"What was discovered, is an elaborate staged crime scene..."

Who says?

"...the forensic evidence recovered from the wine-cellar completely refutes his theory..."

Again, who says?

These are claims that don't necessarily reflect what happened. These claims sortof present this false idea that more is known and has been established than is really known or has been established.

There's another 'logical interpretation' that you can consider. The fact that JBR was found murdered in her basement 'lends credence to an intruder scenario' all by itself. That is supported by the fact that there is no sign of this brutal child murderer personality anywhere near the R's. IOW nobody fitting that profile.

 

[UKGuy]

"What was discovered, is an elaborate staged crime scene..."

Who says?

The forensic evidence.

"...the forensic evidence recovered from the wine-cellar completely refutes his theory..."

Again, who says?

The forensic evidence.

These are claims that don't necessarily reflect what happened. These claims sortof present this false idea that more is known and has been established than is really known or has been established.

There's another 'logical interpretation' that you can consider. The fact that JBR was found murdered in her basement 'lends credence to an intruder scenario' all by itself. That is supported by the fact that there is no sign of this brutal child murderer personality anywhere near the R's. IOW nobody fitting that profile.

JonBenet may have been murdered by an intruder, but certainly not in the manner Lou Smit relates or BlueCrab's EA interpretation of the same theory.

If you consider that an intruder did it, then I would welcome any forensic evidence that backs this up?

.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

I just bought a roll of black duct tape. The gummed side is light grey, almost white.

What you likely see on the white blanket is the sticky side of the black duct tape.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,
Thanks for the information, seems like it could be the sticky side that is prominent, otherwise I guess even the police would have detailed any deviation.


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[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

Perhaps the loops were around her wrists at one time, but IMO it's not very likely. The wrists had a ligature on them that had held them tightly together. That's a known fact.

Therefore, Occam's Razor has to be invoked at this point. The two "leftover" loops almost certainly had to have been on JonBenet's ankles.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Well we dont really know for certain what her prior disposition was, just as long as its on record that either interpretation e.g. wrists or/and ankles is valid.

.

 

[rashomon]

I also find Delmar England's most extensive analysis of the garotte, the knots, the loops etc. extremely interesting. Delmar England seems to know what he is talking about. And he came to the conclusion that this was not a breath control device used for EA.
And according to England, there was no system at all in those loops and knots.
It was just a poorly staged scene.

 

[UKGuy]

I also find Delmar England's most extensive analysis of the garotte, the knots, the loops etc. extremely interesting. Delmar England seems to know what he is talking about. And he came to the conclusion that this was not a breath control device used for EA.
And according to England, there was no system at all in those loops and knots.
It was just a poorly staged scene.

rashomon,

I must read up on his analysis. I am no expert on knots, but I can see that the paintbrush handle was applied to the ligature after her death, thus creating a garrote, with JonBenet's hair embedded in knotting along with her cross and necklace, this demonstrates clearly the sequence of events.

The consideration that her death was EA inspired or an EA accident is not consistent with the forensic evidence.


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[BlueCrab]

I am no expert on knots, but I can see that the paintbrush handle was applied to the ligature after her death, thus creating a garrote, with JonBenet's hair embedded in knotting along with her cross and necklace, this demonstrates clearly the sequence of events.

The consideration that her death was EA inspired or an EA accident is not consistent with the forensic evidence.

UKGuy,

You apparently suggest that the ligature killed JonBenet by asphyxiation prior to the wooden handle being attached to its 17 inch long tail end. But according to the ransom note the killer obviously wanted the crime to look like she was viciously murdered by reps from a foreign faction, so why would the killer add a wooden stick to the cord device after death? The stick, if staged, doesn't seem to add anything to or subtract anything from the perceived view of the strangulation murder.

BlueCrab