DOUBLE LOOP KNOT: JonBenet was posed

[BlueCrab]

The consideration that her death was EA inspired or an EA accident is not consistent with the forensic evidence.

UKGuy,

JonBenet's killer wouldn't have needed an elaborate strangulation device, with or without the stick, to kill her since he could have easily asphyxiated her with his bare hands. So why did he construct and put the device around her neck if it wasn't for some kind of deviate asphyxiation sex game?

BlueCrab

 

[rashomon]

I think the Ramseys wanted to stage the strangulation as a very bizarre crime which in its bizarreness should point away from them. That's why they also used the garotte.
I think they initially wanted to dump JB's body (who was nearing death as a result of the head bash) somewhere outside (which is why they wrote the ransom note) but then didn't dare to do it for fear of being seen.
In their panic they hastily made some loops and knots and constructed the garotte for staging purposes. JB was finally strangled to death, but imo the strangling/garotting was part of a staged scene.

 

[sissi]

Blue Crab, can you locate a picture of the bound barbie found on the Ramsey lawn? Were her hands behind her back with a length and double loop extending to her ankles? I usually can pull things up..but not today ..can't find it.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

I must read up on his analysis. I am no expert on knots, but I can see that the paintbrush handle was applied to the ligature after her death, thus creating a garrote, with JonBenet's hair embedded in knotting along with her cross and necklace, this demonstrates clearly the sequence of events.

And when you think about that sequence of events: there is no need to apply a garrote to a dead body. Therefore this was a staged scene.
Delmar England points this out too in his extensive analysis on the garotte:

"In addition to all the flaws of the apparatus, the fact that strangulation was effected before completion of said apparatus further identifies the scene as staging."

 

[Seeker]

Regarding the double loop; in one of JR's interviews or depositions he says he tried to untie her hands, but the knot was too tight. Maybe he created the double loop when he was trying to untie the knot.

He didn't ever say he "untied" her hands, only that he tried to but couldn't. He could have caused the double loop effect when trying to pull the knot apart. It wasn't necessarily created by someone to tie her hands and feet.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Regarding the double loop; in one of JR's interviews or depositions he says he tried to untie her hands, but the knot was too tight. Maybe he created the double loop when he was trying to untie the knot.

He didn't ever say he "untied" her hands, only that he tried to but couldn't. He could have caused the double loop effect when trying to pull the knot apart. It wasn't necessarily created by someone to tie her hands and feet.

Yeah, but its the length of the second ligature that suggests it was used for more than just binding the hands.

 

[Seeker]

There were only 2. One around her neck and one around her right wrist.

 

[capps]

I have to admit,I'm getting to the point where I don't as much care HOW she was murdered,I want to know WHO killed JonBenet.

 

[BlueCrab]

There were only 2. One around her neck and one around her right wrist.

No Seeker, there were three loops (ligatures) on the wrist ligature cord and one loop on the neck ligature cord. Here's a photo of the wrist ligature cord showing its three adjustable loops:

http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote5.jpg

According to the measurements provided by the autopsy report, the loop on the left side of the photo was wrapped around JonBenet's right wrist. The other two loops were on the end of the 15.5-inch-long cord coming from the wrist ligature knot.

John Ramsey stated her hands were crossed. Both wrists, IMO, were bound together by the loop on the left of the photo, which was secured around the right wrist with the slip knot and the tail from that cord simply wrapped once or twice around the left wrist -- pulling the two wrists together and across each other as described by John. That's why the cord on the left wrist easily fell off as John carried her upstairs.

The two remaining loops, in my theory, were on JonBenet's ankles. What other use was there for the two "leftover" loops?


BlueCrab

 

[sissi]

Can SOMEONE point me to the picture of barbie in bondage. I believe she had duct tape on her mouth, her hands were bound behind her and in some way connected to her ankles. I can't seem to find it anywhere.

 

[fox1950]

I have long thought Fleet White saw or heard something that morning that ended his relationship with the Ramseys. I think he thought they were quilty.

Why he doesn't speak up is another question.

 

[capps]

Can SOMEONE point me to the picture of barbie in bondage. I believe she had duct tape on her mouth, her hands were bound behind her and in some way connected to her ankles. I can't seem to find it anywhere.

Sissi,

I've been trying to search it for you,but I can't find it either. Sorry.

ETA: While searching for it,it brought up some pretty smutty sites,until I just had to stop. I'll probably be getting some nasty junk mail for awhile!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

And when you think about that sequence of events: there is no need to apply a garrote to a dead body. Therefore this was a staged scene.
Delmar England points this out too in his extensive analysis on the garotte:

"In addition to all the flaws of the apparatus, the fact that strangulation was effected before completion of said apparatus further identifies the scene as staging."

"...the fact that strangulation was effected before completion of said apparatus..." isn't a fact at all. Its an assumption, and a bad one.

There was no staging.

The monumentous decision that the garrote was simply one of two murder weapons, supported by forensic evidence that shows JBR was murdered deliberately, is apparently a tough one for some to make.

 

[sissi]

Sissi,

I've been trying to search it for you,but I can't find it either. Sorry.

ETA: While searching for it,it brought up some pretty smutty sites,until I just had to stop. I'll probably be getting some nasty junk mail for awhile!

Thanks for trying Capps I guess it's buried under too many , more current, pages of "bondagexxx".

 

[rashomon]

"...the fact that strangulation was effected before completion of said apparatus..." isn't a fact at all. Its an assumption, and a bad one.

There was no staging.

The monumentous decision that the garrote was simply one of two murder weapons, supported by forensic evidence that shows JBR was murdered deliberately, is apparently a tough one for some to make.

Have you ever read Delmar England's exhaustive analysis of the garotte? If not, you should. He came to the conclusion that all those loops and knots had no system at all.

What makes you so sure that there was no staging? The fact that JB was 'murdered with brutal force', as you have often pointed out here? This is no sufficient reason imo. For a brutal strangulation can be part of a staging too.

 

[Seeker]

No Seeker, there were three loops (ligatures) on the wrist ligature cord and one loop on the neck ligature cord. Here's a photo of the wrist ligature cord showing its three adjustable loops:

http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote5.jpg

According to the measurements provided by the autopsy report, the loop on the left side of the photo was wrapped around JonBenet's right wrist. The other two loops were on the end of the 15.5-inch-long cord coming from the wrist ligature knot.

John Ramsey stated her hands were crossed. Both wrists, IMO, were bound together by the loop on the left of the photo, which was secured around the right wrist with the slip knot and the tail from that cord simply wrapped once or twice around the left wrist -- pulling the two wrists together and across each other as described by John. That's why the cord on the left wrist easily fell off as John carried her upstairs.

The two remaining loops, in my theory, were on JonBenet's ankles. What other use was there for the two "leftover" loops?


BlueCrab

No BlueCrab, there were only 2 ligatures. Period. I was responding to LIGATURES (pieces of cord/rope). Looks like the post I was responding to was changed though...

Also I've never seen anywhere (I may have missed it though) where John Ramsey said her wrists were crossed. Do you have a reference for this?

If her wrists were crossed they would have remained so due to rigor that she was in. They weren't together as this interview seemse to demonstrate...


ST: And when you say you undid the binding, was that a knotted fashion around both wrists?

JR: Yeah. I tried to get her, I tried to get it completely undone. So when I took her upstairs, it was still partially around her wrist.

IMO he's saying that each wrist had a loop around it, not that her wrists were tied together. That's why he says "it was still partially around her wrist", not wrists in the plural. Further down seems to be more confirmation of this.

ST: John, again, how was she positioned on the blanket, was her head to the south end of the cellar room?

JR: Ah, her head was, well the door is on the east side, and her head was going towards the inside of the cellar. So, her feet were closest to the door. I guess, and, I could draw it for you, I mean it was, trying to think of my directions.

TT: Is it OK if I have Ann sketch out how . . .

PB: If you want her to.

TT: That would be helpful for us.

END OF SIDE 1

JR: The door opens this way, (inaudible), her hand was here.

Please note, he doesn't say her "hands", but only "her hand" as in one.

I'll look for more references, but I don't believe John ever said her hands/wrists were crossed.

JR: Right. I found her and I, the first hope of course is that she’s OK. I took the tape off her lips, and her lips were blue. And I tried to untie her hands and her arms.

So it looks like he's implying that her arms were tied? Or does he simply mean her wrists? These (not in sequence) are from the 97 interview.

From the 98 interview (btw it was Mike Kane who suggested her hands were crossed, but John doesn't say it).
7 MIKE KANE: I'm not really clear (INAUDIBLE)

8 you said that they were tied tight. But were her

9 hands tied closely together or were they wide

10 apart?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was like that.

12 MIKE KANE: There were crossed like that.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember, yeah, her hands

14 were close together. (he doesn't say they were crossed, just that they were close together)

15 MIKE KANE: And you tried to untie one of

16 them? Were you successful?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Partly. I mean, I sort of

18 started to get them untied, but I guess I was

19 starting to realize that that would do any good.

If her hands were crossed and tied together then how could he get only one of them untied? If he got one hand out of the loop (and remember she was in full rigor) then he would have had to take the loop completely off if her wrists were crossed to even free one of them right?

Also wouldn't it have been stated in the autopsy that her wrists were crossed? I would think so, but it only says her hands were extended up over her head. He goes into detail about the position of her body, including the ring on her finger and the heart drawn on her hand, but never states that her wrists were crossed...
There is a lot more to go through and I'll keep looking just in case...

 

[Seeker]

04-18-2000 Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation"

Page 41:

"It was the morning of December 27. The little body was first removed from a locked yellow outer covering, then from an inner black bag. The paper sacks were removed from the hands and feet, and Meyer began describing his findings."

The victim weighted forty-five pounds, was three feet, eleven inches tall, and had green eyes, and some green garland was caught in her blond hair. A single loop of white cord was around the right wrist, tied on top of the sleeve but so loosely the doctor easily slid it free. There were 15-1/2 inches between that loop and a loop on the other end, which once apparently had bound the left wrist. A white cord of the same type was wrapped so tightly around the throat and neck that a deep horizonal furrow had been dug into the skin. A gold chain and cross were tangled in that ligature, which was tied behind the neck to a broken stick. Blond hair was snared in the knot, and the cororner had to cut the hair in order to remove the cord, which was tied more like a noose than a twisting garrote. The broken paintbrush used as a the garrote handle had Korea printed on it."

 

[Seeker]

Last page of the autopsy report also states that the paper bags (plural) that were covering her hands (also plural) were turned over to the BPD as evidence.

Why would they, and could they, use more than one bag for both of her hands if her wrists had been tied together? It's not like they would have pried her hands apart to bag each one. She was still in rigor when she got to the coroners office...he states this in his autopsy report (even though it appears that she was starting to come out of rigor because she had been dead for over 24 hours by then).

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

JonBenet's killer wouldn't have needed an elaborate strangulation device, with or without the stick, to kill her since he could have easily asphyxiated her with his bare hands. So why did he construct and put the device around her neck if it wasn't for some kind of deviate asphyxiation sex game?

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

The phrase strangulation device is not one I would apply to JonBenet's homicide until I had ruled out that on first observation it appears to be a garrote.

The information above which Seeker has posted, more or less represents how I interpret the crime-scene.

Whether you consider the artists sketch to be realistic will be a personal one, but it does illustrate her hair embedded in the knotting, now that is forensic evidence not me speculating.

There is no way that what is described in the autopsy report could function as an EA device, turning the broken paintbrush handle would pull her head backwards, causing her extreme pain and distress.

Her cross and necklace is also entangled in the ligature, again this would be a further impediment to the garrote being employed in any EA activity, and in conjuction with her hair being embedded in the ligature knotting demonstrates that the claim of any EA related function is without merit.

As has been discussed before JonBenet also has her fingernail abrasions on her neck, yet she was discovered with her arms bound at the wrists.

This suggests to me her wrist bindings came after her death, as likely did the application of the broken paintbrush handle, the person who did this made one simple mistake, he/she allowed her hair to become embedded in the knotting, and this allows us along with her neck abrasions to imply, that she was killed first, then re-located to the wine-cellar, with someone re-arranging her appearance!

BlueCrab thats an implication not an inference or mere speculation, it is based wholly upon the forensic evidence not on any particular theory that I hold!

So why did he construct and put the device around her neck if it wasn't for some kind of deviate asphyxiation sex game?
BlueCrab

I would suggest that the broken paintbrush handle was applied to the ligature, after her death, and possibly after it was used to sexually assault her, it was an afterthought by the stager. The sexual assault, which may also be staging, is actually more dramatic and pertinent than the paintbrush handle, but together they combine to hint at the perversion and violence Lou Smit portrays in his Intruder Theory!

So what you term a device, I would term a garrote, because regardless of its function, it meets the standard definition of a garrote e.g. a ligature and rod. And its function is part of the staging in the crime scene, we can speculate about what the stager intended us to consider what its purpose was intended to be?

But it is staging, it is fake evidence, and to incorporate bogus forensic evidence into any theory about who murdered JonBenet, leaves that theory with no foundation either in reality or fact.


.

 

[Seeker]

Here is a photo showing the hair tangled in the knot. It is graphic.
Photo of knot with hair and paintbrush handle. And another
Ligature with hair embedded in the knot as well. All photo's courtesy of ACR's wonderful site.

Like UKGuy I don't hold to any one particular theory/scenario, but am just trying to look at the facts. I am not trying to twist the evidence to fit any preconceived notion I may have, but just looking at things as clearly as I can.