DOUBLE LOOP KNOT: JonBenet was posed

[BlueCrab]

No BlueCrab, there were only 2 ligatures. Period. I was responding to LIGATURES (pieces of cord/rope). Looks like the post I was responding to was changed though...

Also I've never seen anywhere (I may have missed it though) where John Ramsey said her wrists were crossed. Do you have a reference for this?

If her wrists were crossed they would have remained so due to rigor that she was in. They weren't together as this interview seemse to demonstrate...


ST: And when you say you undid the binding, was that a knotted fashion around both wrists?

JR: Yeah. I tried to get her, I tried to get it completely undone. So when I took her upstairs, it was still partially around her wrist.

IMO he's saying that each wrist had a loop around it, not that her wrists were tied together. That's why he says "it was still partially around her wrist", not wrists in the plural. Further down seems to be more confirmation of this.

ST: John, again, how was she positioned on the blanket, was her head to the south end of the cellar room?

JR: Ah, her head was, well the door is on the east side, and her head was going towards the inside of the cellar. So, her feet were closest to the door. I guess, and, I could draw it for you, I mean it was, trying to think of my directions.

TT: Is it OK if I have Ann sketch out how . . .

PB: If you want her to.

TT: That would be helpful for us.

END OF SIDE 1

JR: The door opens this way, (inaudible), her hand was here.

Please note, he doesn't say her "hands", but only "her hand" as in one.

I'll look for more references, but I don't believe John ever said her hands/wrists were crossed.

JR: Right. I found her and I, the first hope of course is that she?s OK. I took the tape off her lips, and her lips were blue. And I tried to untie her hands and her arms.

So it looks like he's implying that her arms were tied? Or does he simply mean her wrists? These (not in sequence) are from the 97 interview.

From the 98 interview (btw it was Mike Kane who suggested her hands were crossed, but John doesn't say it).
7 MIKE KANE: I'm not really clear (INAUDIBLE)

8 you said that they were tied tight. But were her

9 hands tied closely together or were they wide

10 apart?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was like that.

12 MIKE KANE: There were crossed like that.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember, yeah, her hands

14 were close together. (he doesn't say they were crossed, just that they were close together)

15 MIKE KANE: And you tried to untie one of

16 them? Were you successful?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Partly. I mean, I sort of

18 started to get them untied, but I guess I was

19 starting to realize that that would do any good.

If her hands were crossed and tied together then how could he get only one of them untied? If he got one hand out of the loop (and remember she was in full rigor) then he would have had to take the loop completely off if her wrists were crossed to even free one of them right?

Also wouldn't it have been stated in the autopsy that her wrists were crossed? I would think so, but it only says her hands were extended up over her head. He goes into detail about the position of her body, including the ring on her finger and the heart drawn on her hand, but never states that her wrists were crossed...
There is a lot more to go through and I'll keep looking just in case...

Seeker,

Each loop is in itself a ligature with slip knots allowing each of the three loops on the wrist cord to be adjusted tighter or looser. That makes a total of four ligatures -- one on the neck cord and three on the wrist cord, as verified by the crime scene photos.

IMO her hands were crossed at the wrists. John Ramsey says "No, it was like that", obviously demonstrating by crossing his own hands, and Mike Kane responding by saying "They were crossed like that", as verification that the hands were crossed.

One loop was tightly secured on the right wrist, but the tail from that knot was simply wrapped once or twice around the left wrist, thus pulling the two wrists together when the weight of JonBenet's suspended torso was applied. That's why the cord on her left wrist easily fell off when John picked her up.

IMO the other two loops (on what the coroner called a double loop knot) were around JonBenet's ankles, thereby hogtying her and allowing her to be posed for maximum shock value.

If I'm right about the two leftover loops being ankle loops, then JonBenet's killer was likely a sexual sadist who assaulted, tortured, killed and then indecently posed the beautiful and privileged JonBenet as a sick political message.

BlueCrab

 

[Seeker]

If she had been posed as you suggest then she would not have been found lying flat on her back with her legs outstretched. She was in full rigor mortis, or do you not believe that either?

No, first you said that JR stated as a fact that her wrists where crossed, now you say he demonstrated it.

BTW the artist rendition was based on autopsy information and eyewitness (BPD) accounts as to how her body was when seen on the floor of the Ramsey's home. Again, if her hands were crossed when she was found they would still have been crossed when brought up from the basement and lain on the floor by the tree. They were not crossed IMO and therefor each hand had to be bagged seperately.

Those loops weren't long enough to bind her hands and feet and where do you get the idea that they were adjustable? They couldn't have been without being easily pulled apart when freed from her wrist. They would have to be slip knots to be adjustable and these obviously aren't.

 

[BlueCrab]

If she had been posed as you suggest then she would not have been found lying flat on her back with her legs outstretched. She was in full rigor mortis, or do you not believe that either?

(IMO JonBenet was found by John Ramsey very early in the morning, probably around 3:00 AM, and not at 1:05 PM. John's own testimony puts him in the basement prior to 5:52 AM.)

No, first you said that JR stated as a fact that her wrists where crossed, now you say he demonstrated it.

(That's correct. John stated that to Mike Kane and then demonstrated how her hands were crossed when he found her.)

BTW the artist rendition was based on autopsy information and eyewitness (BPD) accounts as to how her body was when seen on the floor of the Ramsey's home. Again, if her hands were crossed when she was found they would still have been crossed when brought up from the basement and lain on the floor by the tree. They were not crossed IMO and therefor each hand had to be bagged seperately.

(My rendition of how JonBenet's hands were positioned is ALSO based on the autopsy and the autopsy photos.)

Those loops weren't long enough to bind her hands and feet and where do you get the idea that they were adjustable? They couldn't have been without being easily pulled apart when freed from her wrist. They would have to be slip knots to be adjustable and these obviously aren't.

(IMO they are slip knots. The ligatures would not have come apart easily if JonBenet had been strung up in a hogtied fashion as the evidence suggests. The weight of her body would have kept the loops tight on the respective slip knots until after she had been "cut down".)

BlueCrab

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Have you ever read Delmar England's exhaustive analysis of the garotte? If not, you should. He came to the conclusion that all those loops and knots had no system at all.

What makes you so sure that there was no staging? The fact that JB was 'murdered with brutal force', as you have often pointed out here? This is no sufficient reason imo. For a brutal strangulation can be part of a staging too.

There's all sorts of possibilities open. While everyone decides the crime scene was staged, nobody really knows enough to make that conclusion. If staging means that the crime scene was altered to make one crime appear to be another crime to investigators, then the crime scene was probably not staged.

The broken paintbrush could've been applied to the ligature after the ligature was on JBR, to complete a weapon of some sort. This may have been part of a two-ligature device that was used. This is just an example of how the paintbrush could've been applied to the ligature and not be 'staging'.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The ransom note, prominently placed on the stairway, and presenting a 'kidnapping for ransom' scenario, was IMO staging all the way. The perp wanted to delay the discovery of JBR as long as possible. IMO he masked a brutal basement murder to appear as a kidnapping situation, to keep everyone busy for hours.

 

[narlacat]

Can SOMEONE point me to the picture of barbie in bondage. I believe she had duct tape on her mouth, her hands were bound behind her and in some way connected to her ankles. I can't seem to find it anywhere.

Hi Sissi
Here is a link

http://www.geocities.com/lovelypigeon/Barbie.html

 

[sissi]

Hi Sissi
Here is a link

http://www.geocities.com/lovelypigeon/Barbie.html

THANK YOU!!

 

[BlueCrab]

Sissi,

I've been trying to search it for you,but I can't find it either. Sorry.

ETA: While searching for it,it brought up some pretty smutty sites,until I just had to stop. I'll probably be getting some nasty junk mail for awhile!

capps,

I'm a male, and smutty stuff doesn't bother us. While researching some of the virtually endless number of female bondage photos on the internet did you notice that in almost every bondage picture the feet were tied at the ankles.

The crime scene forensic evidence and photos show that JonBenet had definitely been in bondage. Therefore, I'm quite certain her feet would also have likely been lashed together at the ankles (with the double loop knot).

The difference between typical bondage and JonBenet's bondage is that in most bondage positions shown on the internet the wrists and ankles were tied behind the back. But IMO the wrists and ankles of JonBenet were tied in the front of the body and the legs bent forward and up at the hips until the feet were over the head and then lashed to the hands, which were also over her head -- thus, when partially suspended, creating maximum humiliation of the victim and shock exposure for the person discovering the body.

BlueCrab

 

[sissi]

BC,we agree on something! Her ankles were tied. I believe she was posed exactly like the first Barbie, which explains the tape on her legs that "received mention" during one of JR's interviews.

 

[Nehemiah]

Assuming that the Rs (including B) are totally innocent of everything involving the murder, do you think a dad would find his child tied the way that JB was bound, and repose her for purposes of dignity?

Another question...do you suppose that IF John did repose her, that LE is aware of this and this is one of the things that has not been made public? We know that there is much that hasn't been released; could this be one of those things they are saving for some reason?

 

[BlueCrab]

Assuming that the Rs (including B) are totally innocent of everything involving the murder, do you think a dad would find his child tied the way that JB was bound, and repose her for purposes of dignity?

Another question...do you suppose that IF John did repose her, that LE is aware of this and this is one of the things that has not been made public? We know that there is much that hasn't been released; could this be one of those things they are saving for some reason?

Nehemiah,

My answers to both of your above questions are YES.

IMO John found JonBenet very early that morning (hours before Patsy called 911) and cut her down and reposed her lovingly as best they could in a blanket to give her a measure of dignity in death.

Also, IMO certain members of LE, the DA's office, the court, Boulder administration, and the media, are aware that the case as they know it involves children and is not legally prosecutable. IOW a legal government coverup, which makes it permissable to publicly lie, has been taking place because of the ages. However, I am personally convinced that a prosecutable person was also likely involved and that person may or may not be known to the authorities.

BlueCrab

 

[rashomon]

BC,we agree on something! Her ankles were tied. I believe she was posed exactly like the first Barbie, which explains the tape on her legs that "received mention" during one of JR's interviews.

But that Barbie's hands and feet were tied behind her back, whereas according to BlueCrab's scenario, JB's hands and ankles were tied together in front of her body.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

But that Barbie's hands and feet were tied behind her back, whereas according to BlueCrab's scenario, JB's hands and ankles were tied together in front of her body.

Neither Barbie's 'bondage' or BC's 'obscene posing' ever really happened to JBR. The garrote and second ligature were used in some other way, IMO.

 

[sissi]

But that Barbie's hands and feet were tied behind her back, whereas according to BlueCrab's scenario, JB's hands and ankles were tied together in front of her body.

Yep, we only agree on the ankles being bound, not the positioning. I don't think Jonbenet was murdered in that house, leaving me a bit alone with my theory.

 

[sissi]

Neither Barbie's 'bondage' or BC's 'obscene posing' ever really happened to JBR. The garrote and second ligature were used in some other way, IMO.

Do you happen to consider the garrotte a "lead"? Whatever happened , IMO, was for the purpose of a child photo op. Being led with a dog collar isn't out of the realm of possibilities.

 

[BlueCrab]

But that Barbie's hands and feet were tied behind her back, whereas according to BlueCrab's scenario, JB's hands and ankles were tied together in front of her body.

rashomon,

Correct. We know from the lengths of the "wrist cord" that the wrists and the ankles were bound close to each other. And since the arms were in rigor straight over JonBenet's head, the only way the ankles could have reached close to her wrists is if the ankles were bound in the front of her, the legs straightened, and the body bent upward at the hips until the feet met the wrists.

In this scenario JonBenet was technically "strung up" even though most of her body weight rested on the floor.

IMO when John originally found the body and cut her down it was 2 or 3 hours after JonBenet had died and rigor had begun in the arm joints, preventing him from tucking the arms into the blanket where he and Patsy had placed her. The hip joints took much longer to go into rigor, so the legs were able to be straightened out at the hip joints before wrapping JonBenet in the blanket.

BlueCrab

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Yep, we only agree on the ankles being bound, not the positioning. I don't think Jonbenet was murdered in that house, leaving me a bit alone with my theory.

Where do you think she murdered? Why was she brought back to her home after she was dead? And I live in Maryland, too.

 

[sissi]

Where do you think she murdered? Why was she brought back to her home after she was dead? And I live in Maryland, too.

I believe the perp was smart enough to understand there would be a limited search for a killer and no search for a crime scene, giving him the best odds of never being captured. Returning her was no more difficult than taking her.

Where? Very close , probably within a block radius.

I've thought of moving out of Maryland and taking retirement to the South where money stretches farther, but darn I hate to give up the seasons, the Inner Harbor and Ocean City!

 

[Seeker]

What total and utter garbage this is. IF JonBenet were strung up as suggested here then there would be ligature marks on her wrists and ankles no matter if most of her weight were on the floor or not. Partially strung up as suggested she would still have a lot of her own dead weight on those ligatures.

IMO John found JonBenet very early that morning (hours before Patsy called 911) and cut her down and reposed her lovingly as best they could in a blanket to give her a measure of dignity in death.

Garbage! You think he found her what? 4 hours or so after you think she was killed (didn't you say you thought she was killed around 12-1am on 12/26)? She would have shown signs of liver & rigor mortis by then. The liver mortis on her face clearly disproves that she was "hung" up like you suggest. Her face would have been tilted down to her chest, not off to the side.

Livor mortis or postmortem lividity, one of the signs of death, is a settling of the blood in the lower (dependent) portion of the body, causing a purplish red discoloration of the skin: when the heart is no longer agitating the blood, heavy red blood cells sink through the serum by action of gravity. This discoloration does not occur in the areas of the body that are in contact with the ground or another object, as the capillaries are compressed. Livor mortis starts 20 minutes to 3 hours after death.

It takes a truely sick and demented mind to conjure up these wild sexual fantasies involving a 6 year old child. She peed her pants as well and the urine stains on them are an indicator that she was not hung up as the back of her pants would have been wet. They weren't.

My rendition of how JonBenet's hands were positioned is ALSO based on the autopsy and the autopsy photos.

Yeah, I'm sure you know much more from the limited information in the autopsy and the photos which do not show her entire body than the people who were actually there.

Linda Arndt, who carried JonBenet's body and laid it down in the living room said, "She looked like she was sleeping". Nobody who knows kids would say that if the child's wrists were crossed as if they had been tied...they didn't uncross because she was in full rigor.

 

[BlueCrab]

What total and utter garbage this is. IF JonBenet were strung up as suggested here then there would be ligature marks on her wrists and ankles no matter if most of her weight were on the floor or not. Partially strung up as suggested she would still have a lot of her own dead weight on those ligatures.


Garbage! You think he found her what? 4 hours or so after you think she was killed (didn't you say you thought she was killed around 12-1am on 12/26)? She would have shown signs of liver & rigor mortis by then. The liver mortis on her face clearly disproves that she was "hung" up like you suggest. Her face would have been tilted down to her chest, not off to the side.



It takes a truely sick and demented mind to conjure up these wild sexual fantasies involving a 6 year old child. She peed her pants as well and the urine stains on them are an indicator that she was not hung up as the back of her pants would have been wet. They weren't.



Yeah, I'm sure you know much more from the limited information in the autopsy and the photos which do not show her entire body than the people who were actually there.

Linda Arndt, who carried JonBenet's body and laid it down in the living room said, "She looked like she was sleeping". Nobody who knows kids would say that if the child's wrists were crossed as if they had been tied...they didn't uncross because she was in full rigor.

Seeker,

Are you saying I have a sick and demented mind because I state known facts?

JonBenet was sexually assaulted, probably tortured with a stun gun, strangled so hard the cord was imbedded deep into her neck, hit in the head so hard it split her skull in two, and put in rope bondage by the killer. Do you deny any of these things occurred?

Please tell me this: What kind of mind is it that DENIES these things when there are crime scene photos, an official autopsy report, forensic evidence, and credible testimony that clearly show these things exist and clearly describe these things in detail?

I am also curious if you have ever said that the person who did these awful things to JonBenet has a sick and demented mind.

BlueCrab