Uh, no we don't know this. There's no forensic evidence that concludes or even suggests JBR's ankles were bound. This is just an idea.BlueCrab said:We know from the lengths of the "wrist cord" that the wrists and the ankles were bound close to each other.
Very good point, Seeker!Seeker said:IF JonBenet were strung up as suggested here then there would be ligature marks on her wrists and ankles no matter if most of her weight were on the floor or not. Partially strung up as suggested she would still have a lot of her own dead weight on those ligatures.
You're right. The brutality isn't consistent with filicide or accident coverup at all.sissi said:Jonbenet was BRUTALLY murdered, I think this is something missed by those that think a Ramsey did it. It wasn't an accident, it wasn't a staging it was a brutal ,sick murder. I think we may learn something during the next few weeks, while we follow the Imette murder in NYC, just what kind of sick mind can do this.
Holdontoyourhat said:You're right. The brutality isn't consistent with filicide or accident coverup at all.
In my post 21 on this thread I suggested people go to the Sundance site and look at the 2 autopsy photos of JonBenet's right wrist with the cord still around it. But I don't think anyone bothered, judging by the content of later posts.rashomon said:Very good point, Seeker!
BlueCrab: look at the bigger loop of the cord: that loop was so big that it didn't even close around JB's wrist. Therefore one of her wrists wasn't tied at all - there was merely a loop knot loosely around it.
aussiesheila said:In my post 21 on this thread I suggested people go to the Sundance site and look at the 2 autopsy photos of JonBenet's right wrist with the cord still around it. But I don't think anyone bothered, judging by the content of later posts.
If they had looked they would have seen in the upper photo of the inner side of her right wrist, loop R (what I have named the loop around the right wrist) and on it the knot plus what appears to be part of the 15.5 inch length of cord and the 5.5 inch end length. Then if they had looked at the lower photo of the outer side of her right wrist, they would have seen on loop R, ANOTHER KNOT PLUS what appears to be ANOTHER LOOP (loop r).
It looks to me as though Dr Meyer completely undid loop r and its knot in order to sufficiently loosen the cord and enable him to remove loop R from her right wrist making it appear that there was only one loop, (loop R) removed from her right wrist.
I am guessing that JR only partially loosened loop l and its knot from loop L around the left wrist before removing it thus leaving the 2 loops that were at the left wrist intact, although altered in size.
ie 2 wrists, 2 loops each, 4 loops total originally on wrist ligature when it was ON the body (not 3 loops as shown in photos AFTER REMOVAL from body)
...four months before they allowed the first police interview...BlueCrab said:Holdontoyourhat,
Why then from the very beginning have the Ramseys been refusing to cooperate with the investigation (four months after the murder before they allowed the first police interview, etc.), and lying their heads off (they lied about Burke's whereabouts during the 911 call, etc.).
The Ramseys are covering up something big, and its not the identity of an intruder. They would behave this way ONLY if a family member had been involved in the grisly murder.
BlueCrab
Holdontoyourhat said:Why break the paintbrush? It's broken at each end, right? What advantage does breaking the paintbrush give to an attacker?
No, the larger loop was a double loop knot which had been pulled tight, compressed and locked against further motion. Once a double loop knot is pulled tight, it's all over. Control over loop size ends.You are not going to get loose that knot except with a sharp pointed tool. Nothing is adjustable here anymore.BlueCrab said:The loops incidentally are made with slip knots, so the size of the individual loops in the photos is irrelevant. They are adjustable.
BlueCrab
Its impossible to deduce that from a photo of a ligature.rashomon said:The perp, realizing his/her mistake, then tried to construct another ligature -
What was the general idea?UKGuy said:Holdontoyourhat,
Why dont you tell us, I thought that was the general idea?
.
According to Delmar England, who, unlike the rest of us, is an absolute expert in terms of loops and knots, this is very well possible. One look at these loop knots and he knew what it was all about.Holdontoyourhat said:Its impossible to deduce that from a photo of a ligature.
No he didn't. He may have thought he knew, or claimed to know. But he didn't 'know what it was all about.' There's no way to characterize the garrote and second ligature as bungling without knowing exactly how they were used.rashomon said:One look at these loop knots and he knew what it was all about.
Thanks for the reply BlueCrab.BlueCrab said:Aussiesheila,
Either way, there were originally four loops -- as I see it, two for the wrists and two for the ankles.
The loops incidentally are made with slip knots, so the size of the individual loops in the photos is irrelevant. They are adjustable.
BlueCrab
Isn't Delmar England the one who wrote that letter to Mary Lacey a couple years ago? It wound up by threatening her if she didn't do somethiing (arrest the Ramseys?) by a certain date. Isn't he also a self-described hand-writing expert? Perhaps I'm confusing him with someone else.rashomon said:According to Delmar England, who, unlike the rest of us, is an absolute expert in terms of loops and knots, this is very well possible. One look at these loop knots and he knew what it was all about.
BTW, none of these allegedly 'professional' loop knots is listed in any book about loops and knots. Hardly surprising, lol! For professionally constructed loops and knots always serve a purpose, but those loops had no function at all, they were the work of a bungling amateur.
Read the Physics Never Lie threads on the Forums for Justice website, where D. England is a poster.
We all have our theories as to what happened. Theorizing and speculating is allowed on a true crime message board, for it is a discussion board and presenting our theories is part of the discussion and interaction.
But every theory has to take into account basic facts; every theory has to stand scrutiny when it comes to fact. Hanging onto a theory should never go as far as to disregard or twist facts if they don't fit into one's theory.
Bottom line: if the known facts don't fit one's theory, then this theory is based on wrong assumptions, and one will have to change that theory.
Homicide detectives have to do this all the time whenever their knowlege of the case increases, so why shouldn't posters on a true crime forum do this too?
rashomon,rashomon said:No, the larger loop was a double loop knot which had been pulled tight, compressed and locked against further motion. Once a double loop knot is pulled tight, it's all over. Control over loop size ends.You are not going to get loose that knot except with a sharp pointed tool. Nothing is adjustable here anymore.
So that amateurishly constructed ligature had been pulled tight before ever closing around JB's wrist. The perp, realizing his/her mistake, then tried to construct another ligature - hence the difference in the two wrist ligatures. BTW: the other ligature was just as amateurishly constructed : while the larger one was pulled tight before having had the chance to close around JB's wrist, the other one would have come undone in case you pulled at it, lol! In short, JB could not have been bound/strung up at all with such poorly constructed ligatures.
For anyone who wants to know more about it, go to Websleuth's 'Forums for Justice' sister site and look up the threads 'Physics Never Lie', part I and II, where Delmar England, an absolute expert, explains those basics.
