DOUBLE LOOP KNOT: JonBenet was posed

[UKGuy]

rashomon,

I’ve just been to the ACandyRose site and looked up what Delmar England has to say.

It seems as though this person is an expert on handwriting and criminal profiling as well as garrote construction because she/he has submitted analyses of all these and a few other things besides at ACandyRose.

This makes me a bit suspicious I have to say. It makes me wonder - is this person a trained, experienced expert or just a self proclaimed expert? Her/his analysis of the knots may be no more expert than yours or BlueCrab’s, or mine for that matter.

Maybe you don't have people like that in Germany, we have plenty and they are called posers.

aussiesheila,

Is your use of an ad-hominem argument an indication of the strength and rigor of rashomon's proposals, or a failure on your part to offer any constructive input?

.

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

Is your use of an ad-hominem argument an indication of the strength and rigor of rashomon's proposals, or a failure on your part to offer any constructive input?

.

Well UKGuy, after reading up to post 149 on this thread I was inclined to go with BlueCrab's opinion that the knots were slipknots. But rashomon later stated quite categorically that the knots were not of this type at all, based on what he has read of Delmar England's analysis of the knots who she/he states is an absolute expert. I am not convinced DE is any more of an expert than for example, BlueCrab. I am trying to establish just who is correct and who I should believe. I haven't offered any input as to the type of knot because I know next to nothing about knots.

By the tone of your reply I would guess you think rashomon/delmar are correct. I would like a bit more info before I decide. Perhaps you have expert knowledge of knots. Please, if you do I would love to hear it.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I just read some of the garrote/ligature analysis at Acandyrose. IMO there's really not enough of an argument to contradict LE or JR on the professionalism of the garrote.

The analysis seems to overemphasize the importance of where the ligatures were discovered at the crime scene. The second ligature found loose around one wrist means only that the second ligature was found loose around one wrist. We still don't know how it was used. The analysis assumes it was employed in that position.

Likewise the garrote around the neck. The analysis questions the capability of the garrote device, and considers better ways to do it. This is interesting in the face of the coroner's remarks, as to the deep furrow from which he had to cut the neck ligature in order to remove it.

 

[narlacat]

They never lied, they were informed of the position the BPD was taking in an effort to hold the body for ransom, they were advised to let someone play interference for them while the keystones blundered over and over. The police fed daily garbage to the media who in turn fed us. We are brainless consumers, each and every one of us likely believes something that is an outrageous lie concerning this case.

Well, I think they have lied, but I can see how people believe they did what they were advised to do.
It's more their actions after their daughter's death that presumes their guilt for me.
Actions speak louder than words and their actions were dubious.

 

[BlueCrab]

What was the general idea?

I know that the broken paintbrush has been explored for all possible sexual/crass/sensational aspects, but that doesn't explain why the paintbrush would've been broken at both ends and then used in a garrote anyway.

Holdontoyourhat,

How about a message from the killer? The stick broken on BOTH ends is indeed curious. For instance, the broken paint brush handle may have been broken at both ends to better position the existing message from an Asian Pacific American Coalition (APAC) member from Korea on the wooden stick. The word KOREA was the only word able to be be read on the stick. The APAC group suspiciously disbanded immediately following the murder of JonBenet.

One of APAC's apparent goals was to obtain recognition and perhaps retribution for what it perceived as the unfair justice for Asian-American females who were victims of crimes in the U.S.

There was a direct connection between APAC and the Ramsey family. As you may know, I highly suspect a loose cannon from that politically active college group was the fifth person in the house that night -- likely let into the house by Burke. Individual members of the 29-member APAC group, as outlined in its by-laws, had to earn so many pro-active community points a year to remain a member in good standing. The word Korea on the paint brush handle could have been the killer's method of proving to the other members that HE, perhaps a Korean, had carried out the killing.

BlueCrab

 

[narlacat]

<<The word KOREA was the only word able to be be read on the stick>>

Bluecrab
Would that have been the only word on the stick though?
Would it have also said 'made in' do you think?

 

[BlueCrab]

<<The word KOREA was the only word able to be be read on the stick>>

Bluecrab
Would that have been the only word on the stick though?
Would it have also said 'made in' do you think?

narlacat,

There were other words on the stick, but the coroner said in his autopsy report he couldn't read them because the multiple windings of the knot hid them. It's interesting that only the word KOREA was able to be read.

 

[aussiesheila]

Well, I think they have lied, but I can see how people believe they did what they were advised to do.
It's more their actions after their daughter's death that presumes their guilt for me.
Actions speak louder than words and their actions were dubious.

Narla, are you old enough to remember how Lindy and Michael Chamberlain were vilified for their actions after their baby daughter disappeared at Uluru in Aug 1980 I think it was? Like how Michael went around taking photographs of the rock the day after her disappearance? how the whole family went back to Mt Isa about 2 days later without the baby's body ever being found? how Lindy dressed smartly for the inquest? how she didn't go all weepy at the trial but remained very grimfaced and stoic? etc? etc? And how they were condemned as being guilty of the murder by the press and hence (I just had to put that in, lol) the general public, largely because of their strange behaviour? And in the end the High Court of Aust ultimately found them innocent after new evidence came to light? If you are old enough you can surely see the parallels in this case?

What I am saying is there are no standards of 'normal' behaviour when your child is killed/murdered/gone missing. And when, as if that trauma isn't enough, everyone turns on you as the perpetrator of the horror, how the hell does anyone behave 'normally' or up to the expectations of others who have never come anywhere near the grief they are experiencing?

Fair go Aussie.

 

[BlueCrab]

Well UKGuy, after reading up to post 149 on this thread I was inclined to go with BlueCrab's opinion that the knots were slipknots. But rashomon later stated quite categorically that the knots were not of this type at all, based on what he has read of Delmar England's analysis of the knots who she/he states is an absolute expert. I am not convinced DE is any more of an expert than for example, BlueCrab. I am trying to establish just who is correct and who I should believe. I haven't offered any input as to the type of knot because I know next to nothing about knots.

By the tone of your reply I would guess you think rashomon/delmar are correct. I would like a bit more info before I decide. Perhaps you have expert knowledge of knots. Please, if you do I would love to hear it.

aussiesheila,

I am not a knot expert, but IMO the knots used to form the loops on the wrist cord were slip knots because slip knots lock up when tension is put on them (such as from the weight of JonBenet's body), but when the tension is relaxed (such as when John apparently cut her down A/O picked her up) the rope through the knot slides freely and the size of the loops can be adjusted easily.

If the slip knot that John was trying to untie on the wrist was under tension from the weight of JonBenet's body then it would have been very hard to untie. Once the tension was removed the knot would loosen and could be easily removed.

Slip knots can, of course, be used for hundreds of different applications, but they are used especially by such people as mountain climbers; those who climb trees and other heights such as hunters and tree trimmers; and by construction workers.

(Don't forget the heavy rope found in a bag in JAR's room.)

BlueCrab

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Holdontoyourhat,

How about a message from the killer? The stick broken on BOTH ends is indeed curious. For instance, the broken paint brush handle may have been broken at both ends to better position the existing message from an Asian Pacific American Coalition (APAC) member from Korea on the wooden stick. The word KOREA was the only word able to be be read on the stick. The APAC group suspiciously disbanded immediately following the murder of JonBenet.

One of APAC's apparent goals was to obtain recognition and perhaps retribution for what it perceived as the unfair justice for Asian-American females who were victims of crimes in the U.S.

There was a direct connection between APAC and the Ramsey family. As you may know, I highly suspect a loose cannon from that politically active college group was the fifth person in the house that night -- likely let into the house by Burke. Individual members of the 29-member APAC group, as outlined in its by-laws, had to earn so many pro-active community points a year to remain a member in good standing. The word Korea on the paint brush handle could have been the killer's method of proving to the other members that HE, perhaps a Korean, had carried out the killing.

BlueCrab

IOW the cord could've been wrapped around the original paintbrush, avoiding the word "KOREA" because it was somehow significant. The ends subseqently broken off to wind up with a symmetrical 'handle'. Were the broken ends of different lengths?

 

[BlueCrab]

IOW the cord could've been wrapped around the original paintbrush, avoiding the word "KOREA" because it was somehow significant. The ends subseqently broken off to wind up with a symmetrical 'handle'. Were the broken ends of different lengths?

Holdontoyourhat,

Correct. The word KOREA could have been left clearly positioned on one of the ends of the stick because it meant something to the perp.

The paintbrush was rather large, such as those used to paint in the backgrounds of a picture. The wooden handle is round and appears to measure around 1/2 inch to 5/8 inches in diameter and, with both ends broken off, measures 4 1/2 inches in length. So at one time the handle probably measured at least seven or eight inches in length. The brush end was found in Patsy's tote, and the other end (the tip of the handle) is missing. No part of the word KOREA was broken off. And the knot with multiple loops wrapped around the broken stick was positioned in the middle of the stick, seemingly purposely avoiding covering up any of the word KOREA.

So was the word KOREA purposely left readable to communicate something? Maybe.

BlueCrab

 

[capps]

The brush end was found in Patsy's paint tote? I didn't know that ... I thought both ends were missing. Then that stops my idea of the bristles of the paintbrush being the animal hair found on JonBenet,because they would have clarified that.

Why didn't you correct me BlueCrab??!!

 

[UKGuy]

Holdontoyourhat,

Correct. The word KOREA could have been left clearly positioned on one of the ends of the stick because it meant something to the perp.

The paintbrush was rather large, such as those used to paint in the backgrounds of a picture. The wooden handle is round and appears to measure around 1/2 inch to 5/8 inches in diameter and, with both ends broken off, measures 4 1/2 inches in length. So at one time the handle probably measured at least seven or eight inches in length. The brush end was found in Patsy's tote, and the other end (the tip of the handle) is missing. No part of the word KOREA was broken off. And the knot with multiple loops wrapped around the broken stick was positioned in the middle of the stick, seemingly purposely avoiding covering up any of the word KOREA.

So was the word KOREA purposely left readable to communicate something? Maybe.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

But what happens if it turns out that broken paintbrush handle, which was fashioned there in the wine-cellar, was applied after she was asphyxiated?

We know this because her hair is embedded in the knotting on the paintbrush handle, and her necklace is entangled in the ligature, and there appear to be no abrasions resulting from this entanglement!

So I reckon the garrote is staging, and using it to speculate about a pepretrators motives will simply lead nowhere.


.

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab,

But what happens if it turns out that broken paintbrush handle, which was fashioned there in the wine-cellar, was applied after she was asphyxiated?

We know this because her hair is embedded in the knotting on the paintbrush handle, and her necklace is entangled in the ligature, and there appear to be no abrasions resulting from this entanglement!

So I reckon the garrote is staging, and using it to speculate about a pepretrators motives will simply lead nowhere.

UKGuy,

I agree the hair and necklace entangled IN the ligature knot is perplexing -- and I have no credible answer for it. But if JonBenet wasn't strangled by the ligature around her neck, then how WAS she strangled? The ligature seems to be the only game in town.

BlueCrab

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

BlueCrab,

But what happens if it turns out that broken paintbrush handle, which was fashioned there in the wine-cellar, was applied after she was asphyxiated?

We know this because her hair is embedded in the knotting on the paintbrush handle, and her necklace is entangled in the ligature, and there appear to be no abrasions resulting from this entanglement!

So I reckon the garrote is staging, and using it to speculate about a pepretrators motives will simply lead nowhere.


.

The problem with this idea is that any object could've been used as the handle. Instead, it was a wooden paintbrush, broken on each end in a jagged fashion. This gives the garrote the appearance of a two in one weapon.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

BlueCrab,

But what happens if it turns out that broken paintbrush handle, which was fashioned there in the wine-cellar, was applied after she was asphyxiated?

We know this because her hair is embedded in the knotting on the paintbrush handle, and her necklace is entangled in the ligature, and there appear to be no abrasions resulting from this entanglement!

So I reckon the garrote is staging, and using it to speculate about a pepretrators motives will simply lead nowhere.


.

The other problem here is that the garrote could've been assembled after the ligature was applied to JBR, to complete a strangulation device of some sort. The device may have included the second ligature. This is how the garrote could include JBR's hair, and not be staging.

Yet another way to tangle JBR's hair in the garrote, is the fact that the cord wrapped around the stick isn't sealed. It has v-shaped notches where one cord passes near another cord. Certainly a magnet for hair entanglement. So the fact hair was entangled in the cord is not surprising, and not a very convincing staging argument.

 

[rashomon]

Thanks for the reply BlueCrab.
So what are slipknots?

ETA: BlueCrab, reading a few posts further on I see that rashomon says the knots are not slipknots thus loops are not adjustable.

Can you guys argue this one out and decide who is right please before we continue to dream up theories. Thanks. I don't know anything about knots and would like any poster with expert knowledge to decide exactly what type of knots they are for me.

According to Delmar England, a slip knot is simply a knot tied from one end of a rope (as opposed to e. g. to a knot tied from both ends of a rope, shoelaces for example).
This is what he wrote on Forums For justice ("Lassoing the Truth" thread
The active phrase is &#8220;slipping knot&#8221; for slipping is exactly what
it does. The knot in focus is usually tied from one end of a
given length of cord or rope; one end as opposed to both ends
utilized in tying a shoelace. The slip knot is made by wrapping
cord around itself in a manner to create a knot.

ETA: BlueCrab, reading a few posts further on I see that rashomon says the knots are not slipknots thus loops are not adjustable.

I didn't say that this wasn't a slip knot; obviously it was. But slip knot in itself doesn't mean that it stays adjustable once it is pulled tight.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,
Maybe you don't have people like that in Germany, we have plenty and they are called posers.

Thanks for your concern, Aussieheila, but I can assure you that I'm not a gullible person at all.
Which is why I'm very well aware that posers can be found on internet forums because basically, anyone can claim to be anything on the internet.
But what invariably happens to posers if they show up on a good discussion board? They are unmasked very quickly by the knowledgeable posters on the forum, and quickly flee from the board, lol!
Now Forums For Justice is an excellent discussion board, and there are incredibly knowledgeable posters over there. I just discovered it some days ago because a moderator of the message board Crime and Justice (where there is also a JB board) told me about it. This moderator BTW has written an excellent book about the JB case ("Journey Beyond Reason"), which also contains a chapter about D. England's work. Believe me, this moderator would not let herself be fooled by any imposer.
Nor would the posters at Forums for Justice or the moderators over there let themselves be fooled.
Delmar England is a regular poster on the board, and answers every single question asked of him in great detail. Answering in great detail btw, is also something posers don't do because they don't like specific questions at all.

The ligature and the garrote are crucial pieces of evidence.
We all have our theories as to what the ligature or the garrote was used for, and if you look around on this board, the motley gamut ranges from 'EA breath control device' to 'hogtied' to 'kidnapping' to 'staging'.

But to see if there is any merit in these scenarios, one has to look for basic info about knots, and D. England provides such info.
Some people here said that threy trust waht LE said about the ligature and the garrote. But what did LE say about the ligatureand the garrote? Did they call in a rope expert? For if not, chances are that the LE people knew as little about knots as the typical layperson, and therefore didn't realize that the ligature and garrote were poorly constructed.

And in terms of the deep furrow around JB's neck which has been mentioned: according to D. England, the cause was post-mortem swelling which pressed the cord into the flesh.

 

[narlacat]

Narla, are you old enough to remember how Lindy and Michael Chamberlain were vilified for their actions after their baby daughter disappeared at Uluru in Aug 1980 I think it was? Like how Michael went around taking photographs of the rock the day after her disappearance? how the whole family went back to Mt Isa about 2 days later without the baby's body ever being found? how Lindy dressed smartly for the inquest? how she didn't go all weepy at the trial but remained very grimfaced and stoic? etc? etc? And how they were condemned as being guilty of the murder by the press and hence (I just had to put that in, lol) the general public, largely because of their strange behaviour? And in the end the High Court of Aust ultimately found them innocent after new evidence came to light? If you are old enough you can surely see the parallels in this case?

What I am saying is there are no standards of 'normal' behaviour when your child is killed/murdered/gone missing. And when, as if that trauma isn't enough, everyone turns on you as the perpetrator of the horror, how the hell does anyone behave 'normally' or up to the expectations of others who have never come anywhere near the grief they are experiencing?

Fair go Aussie.

Aussiesheila
Yes I am old enough to know about Lindy and Michael and the whole Chamberlain case.
However, I don't see the parallel's you do between the two cases.
The only similiarities that I can see is how the press persecuted both families, citing them muderers without any conclusive proof and how it was thought that the parent's were covering up for their son.
Lindy Chamberlain was innocent yes but that doesn't automatically give Patsy Ramsey a pass too...
Patsy Ramsey is a million miles away from the person Lindy Chamberlain is.
I know quite a bit about Lindy actually, a friend of a friend shared a cell with her.
Her first name was Erica if you wanted to follow that up, if you didn't believe me.
I always believed the Chamberlain's were innocent and that justice would prevail.

 

[rashomon]

Originally Posted by aussiesheila
Narla, are you old enough to remember how Lindy and Michael Chamberlain were vilified for their actions after their baby daughter disappeared at Uluru in Aug 1980 I think it was? Like how Michael went around taking photographs of the rock the day after her disappearance? how the whole family went back to Mt Isa about 2 days later without the baby's body ever being found? how Lindy dressed smartly for the inquest? how she didn't go all weepy at the trial but remained very grimfaced and stoic? etc? etc? And how they were condemned as being guilty of the murder by the press and hence (I just had to put that in, lol) the general public, largely because of their strange behaviour? And in the end the High Court of Aust ultimately found them innocent after new evidence came to light? If you are old enough you can surely see the parallels in this case?

What I am saying is there are no standards of 'normal' behaviour when your child is killed/murdered/gone missing. And when, as if that trauma isn't enough, everyone turns on you as the perpetrator of the horror, how the hell does anyone behave 'normally' or up to the expectations of others who have never come anywhere near the grief they are experiencing?

Fair go Aussie.

I'm not at all convinced of the Chamberlains' innocence. What was the exculpatory piece of evidence? The baby's blood-soaked jacket found in a Dingo's cave? So theoretically, if they had wanted to 'sacrifice their daughter in the desert' (The baby's name "Azaria" meant just that), they themselves could have put the baby outside the tent and waited for some animal to snatch her.