Dr Neal Haskell testimony (Entomologist)

[QB.]

body was partially decomposed when placed, still had soft tissue was not a skeleton when it was placed there, in his opinion.

 

[truthsleuth]

Decomp AND insects' lives are temperature dependent. He found species that He would have expected. Blowflies (2 species), gnat-like flies, houseflies, 2 or 3 species, and black pulcher ? fly. All were consistent with advanced decomp.

What did the flies tell you about the remains?

All were through their life cycles.

Does the presence orf different types of flies tell you if the flies were placed there right off the bat?

Short answer: the body had been placed in its final location later and was elsewhere earlier.

That body was out there for many many months . June and/or early July.

Was it deposited there as a skeleton or a complete body?

Since blowflies and other flies were there, a body that was partially decomposed was placed there.

 

[truthsleuth]

Decomp had begun and early colonizers had been excluded, so the body couldn't have been in the car very long,

 

[QB.]

Dr. H: Nice to see you again Mr. Baez

 

[QB.]

JB: you and Dr. V are old colleques?
Dr. H: we go way back, I've had dinner at his house

 

[pipkins]

JB - do you recall testifying in your depo that he was a biochemist?
SUSTAINED

 

[4realtho]

ICA, laughing and having a great time this morning.

 

[Donjeta]

Cross by JB

wanna ask about first contact with case, it was through Dr. Vass wasn't it?

he had mentioned Michael Vincent had seen fruit flies come out of the trunk

you had thought they could be coffin flies

you are old colleagues

we go back a long way to the body farm

you know each other well

yes

it's your understanding he's a biochemist

I know he's an anthropologist but used to study biochemistry

do you recall testifying that he was a biochemist?

objection, relevance
sustained

statements you had made to dr vass about possible coffin flies was before you saw any evidence

correct

subsequently dr vass gave your name to Orange county and they contacted you

I don't remember

lets look at your report
august 28

when you first received something it's your understanding that you got items from the trash in the trunk of the car

that's what the sample suggested

so it wasn't from the actual trunk

yes

the flies you found were ..... ?
they're very tiny, look like fruitflies

like when I go to a restaurant and leave the leftovers in the car, that's what I get the next day?

I would have to examine them to tell but it's not common in processed food

magmacilious celarious (?) is also found in trash

garbage

now we're doing that again (laughter from the crowd)

It can be found in anything, from rotting seaweed to dead insect, fungus, anywhere

 

[QB.]

JB trying to make the point that the small flies were fruit flies and found in garbage, no trash, no garbage.

 

[Kat]

Dr. H is quibbling with JB about words of trash vs. garbage. Much laughter by KC and others. JB looks like he's enjoying himself.

 

[QB.]

JB: you sent these samples to Dr. V., your old collegue
Dr. : yes, my 'trusted' collegue

 

[sorrell skye]

"I can testify intelligently..."

Go Dr. H!!! You sure can!!!

 

[Tuffy]

Dr. Haskell "I can testify intelligently."

Jose: "I didn't mean to insult your intelligence."

 

[truthsleuth]

JB up. Ugh.

JB wants to know about NH's first knowledge about the case. NH explains his contact with Dr. Vass.

You and Dr. Vass are old colleagues?

Yes, I have been to his house, but I see him interemittently.

JB asks about Vass being a biochemist. [Stop already!]

OC contacted you because of Dr. Vass?

I don't remember ...

The flies were forest flies, for those of us non-bug people, those are gnat-like flies? They look like fruit flies? If i go to a restaurant, those are the fruit flies?

You have to send them to me to identify.

The forest flies are also found in garbage are they not? (Casey is laughing. Ugh)

NH explains where these insects are found. Just about anywhere.

JB now drawing on paper on the easel. (He is no artist.)

JB: In your report you said these flies are also found in ??? (Can't hear--JB walking away from microphone.)

NH says yes.

Lots of laughter from Casey.

The flies came from the trash bag per NH. No where else.

JB said you checked the trunk and that turned up negative results?

Yes.

JB said there was more insect activity in the garbage according to MV.

NH found adult flies. Says the majority of the specimens were in the paper towels.

DNA is prevalent in a lot of stuff. Human DNA has been extracted from insects.

JB: My question is, you didn't send them for DNA analysis? to your old colleageue Dr. Vass? What tests did you perform.? You can't testify intelligently about what tests were performed ...

I can testify intelligently.

JB: No, I"m not trying to insult you...

 

[wenwe4]

Dr. Neal Haskell - entomologist (bug expert)

Ford flies are very tiny 1mm - 4mm in length we would call them gnats or gnat size flies, get thru very small openings ....recovered them under concrete with ajust a few cracks - devloped larvae or adults.......come a little later in decomp.....found absence in the first decomp flies (object-.....finish asking question) object- leading -overrule the very first decomp flies were gone and these little tenacious flies got in later....blow flies very early flies - they are pretty tenacious - depends junk rusty old car vs newer car wi th not so many holes.....wrap a body in plastic bag or 2 hinder flies? absolutely! he has done experiments - if plastic bag is closed tight - delay body to point blow flies were no longer interested and went someplace else....no other bugs from trunk sent....come to opinion or estimate of amt of time body with decomposing material in the trunk of the car.....source of decomp fluids in the trunk could not have been in there very long due to heat of FL ....had to be out of trunk by time abandon vehicle... .made estimate of 3, 4, or 5 days enough purged fluid ....enough to attract ford flies to the trunk - heat significance? insects are cold blooded creatures - dependent upon environment temperatures...if warm drive enzymes to work fast....very rapid growth....cold slows it or if too cold - stops growth of maggots or puparia......
At some point - Nov or Dec. 2008 - arranged to come to FL to inspect vehicle ....around that time found surprising news - remains had been found....already had plane tickets and came down for a few days on 12/16...they were processing the scene 11th and on...I felt no rush to come - planned to do what we had planned and other things.....bug evidence ...travel to scene and inspect area and impound yard - vehicle had been impounded (tow yard)....go to ME office and examine evidence found with remains and made collections ....took specimines from scene and ME office...examined those items....

entomological evidence - chain custody....what sample looking @ in sample vials....protocols established 25 years ago....microscopic exam of specimine...ID at least some level - groups or levels....relate that species or group identification.....known growth rate for that species....then do analysis and write up based on how long those insect specimine on those remains.....decomp and insects are temperature dependent - enzymes are temp. dependent.....carry and placed in remains.....ME and scene species that was expected on advanced decomp remains - found few blowfly puparia - cocoons....2 species blow fly, housefly relatives group 2 or 3 there, real long grower - soldier fly.....all past the end growth and development hatched out - found puparia hundreds and thousands years old - so they can last long time.....all insect remains found tell story how got there, how long been there....clear thru life cycles all specimines....couldn't have been much earlier than minimum time suggested...


body placed there quickly after death or delay? from scene - large #'s of blow flies....most likely initial placement that excluded these right out off the bat....should have seen thousands of blow fly puparia - did not find that...

decomp in the trunk - megaselius scolaris ....how far along body was in decomp when placed....initial decomp .....

no question body had been out there many many months....June and or early July....body deposited there as a skeleton? few blow flies there - we did not have skeletal remains when placed there - body partially decomposed purging fluids bloat realm, still considerable soft tissue....findings @ scene and findings in car tell consistent story....

decomp had begun - early colonizers .....body not in trunk very long ....due to progression ....body was placed out....could have been placed out where it was found....

Cross-exam

JB w/NH....back to beginning of this case...first knowledge(missed a little)

Michael vincent had seen fruit flies came out of car....coffin flies...Dr. Vass and he are old buddies...go back to the body farm years ago......he is bio=chemist? knew he was anthropologist...he was studying anthropology....do you recall testify he was bio-chemist(object-sustained).....statements made to dr. Vass these were possibly coffin flies....subsequent to that dr. Vass gave your name to OC? I don't remember.....take findings from beginning....copy of report 8/28 report....first received something....understand you received items from trash bag in trunk of car....not from the trunk but from trash....fording fly - gnat type flies - very tiny - look like fruit flies....leftovers left in car....gnat like ---don't think leftovers that is processed food.....something left in the car see fruit flies....if we are talking trash vs. garbage.....magnaselius scolaris.....found in decompose eats anything....rotting seaweed, decomp vegetable material....insects rotting, find it about anywhere.....

even in report - these flies also found in trash bag....find in garbage and trash bags ...asked CSI vincent to get a 2nd....wanted adult flies to be more scientific and more precise....he checked trunk - turned up negative results -he got the trash bag package that was sealed and NH opened it.....he sent trash and found adults making it possible to identify species....paper towels ford specimines were found....high numbers of these specimines on papertowels....dna can be from any cell material other than red blood cells....in fact dna from some insects....extract human dna from mosquitos, lice, dead maggots....paper towel sent for dna analysis? don't know - NH requested bio-chemistry analysis - sent to Dr. Vass - old trusted colleague...familiar with what he did to determine it was adipocere - trusted him to do right test.....can't tell what exams (I can testify intelligently! but that i don't know! = sir not trying to insult you..



subsequent paper towels....blow fly leg.......blow fly #1 most prominent for early decomp....find in them in your house.....trash or garbage....unprocessed meat in the garbage.....on window sill if don't clean....houses will have some blow flies in it....look for large number ? look for one or for thousands....decomp. body lay 300 - 400 eggs....tens of thousands of maggots.....in trash bag - found a leg....that is not unheard of to find blowfly part of one or no one in trash or garbage - not unheard of.....

this is everything from bug from the car......later he examined filters from vac. cleaners trunk of the car....there were some foreward flies (ford flies?) ....

 

[Donjeta]

even in your report you wrote the flies are found in other organic material

didn't want to mislead you

didn't say you would
and they were found from a garbage bag

it says trash bag, you changed it
I wanted to find adults

to be more scientific

yes

he checked the trunk with negative results

yes

he told you, hey I remember I saw some insect activity in the garbage, or trash

trash bag

he opened it and found adults?

he got the package and sent it to me sealed and I opened it
I found adults that made it possible to identify species

we looked at a paper towel which had I believe decomp fluid on it

you know that DNA can be grabbed from any cell material other than red blood cells
in fact from insects

yes, insects have DNA

these paper towels weren't sent for DNA analysis

I don't know. I requested a biochemical assay

so you didn't send them for a DNA analysis, instead to Dr. Vass, your old colleague

yes.

Are you familiar with his studies

I got info that it was adipocere

are you familiar with what tests he ran

I trust him to do the right thing

so you can't testify intelligently about it

I can testify intelligently but I don't know that

I'm not insulting you but saying you don't know the details, just what Dr Vass told you

now blowfly leg was found in garbage/trash

on papertowel

they're the more prominent in early decomp?

Yes.

but you also have them in the house?

Yes, I found one last week. Only if there is unprocessed meat.

and these are the flies that you can find on the windowsills?

No, my wife does a good job cleaning

When you find a decomposing body there are lots of them? and they lay lots of legs, no, eggs?

Tens of thousands of eggs.

But you couldn't find a full one, just a leg?

guess one of them lost a leg

But it's not uncommon to find a fly in trash?

No, but you can also find none.

Carpet: there were some flies consistent with megacilious and some other carrion insects





I

 

[truthsleuth]

These flies can be found in the garbage?

In unprocessed food... Some blowflies can be found in houses.

JB: with a decomposing body you find hundreds and hundreds of these blowflies and eggs?

Thousands and thousands.

JB: But you only found a leg?

...

JB: So this is everything you've been able to locate in terms of entomological evidence from the car?

NH: I've found other things ...

JB nitpicking, as usual ... He hands NH copy of report.

JB: So almost 3 years later, you got the vacuuming of what was in the car?

NH: yes.

JB: You were able to pick out a few more insects? they came from the garbage bag.

NH: No I don't think so.

JB: So flies can get in, but can't get out [of the garbage bag]? [Mr. Snark]

on and on and on about the flies in the trunk or in the garbage bag.

 

[Donjeta]

this was sent to you early 2011, from vacuuming the car, almost three years later, and you say you were able to pick up a few more insects, they were consistent with falling out of the trash?

they were consistent with decomposing IMO

And also consistent with falling out the trash bag?

I don't think they did

So it's your opinion that the flies could get in the trash bag but not out of it?

Once they hatch out they would be leaving if they can

this wasn't very many insects, was it?

No.

part of your job is to do PMI
it allows you to see insects and maggots to determine how long a person might be deceased
or in this case how long these insects might have been there on a specific item

that's possible

In july 16 when this car was collected you could have had insects to determine postmortem interval?

normally postmortem interval consists of a range of time consistent with biological findings

but you could have tracked it better if you got evidence on July 16?

objection, hypothetical
overruled

ask again please.

if you got entomol. evidence on July 16 you could have traced it back to a slight range

depends on what items were placed in the trunk

but you weren't given items on July 16, not until Sept 2008.

that's correct

 

[KenoshaKid]

Info on Phorid flies

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoridae"]Phoridae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/Filehorid_fly2.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Phorid_fly2.jpg/220px-Phorid_fly2.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/6/6f/Phorid_fly2.jpg/220px-Phorid_fly2.jpg[/ame]

 

[QB.]

Dr. H: this is the best processing he has seen in his 30 years experience.